anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 17:13:06 GMT -5
Bhaktisiddhanta S: Therefore the present guru asks his disciple his own inclinations: Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done. From it one can see that BSS makes two mistakes: 1. The revelation of the ekadas bhavas cannot be done by guru, as all the Gaudiyas of his time stated, including his own father said. 2. The disciple inclination (for a certain rasa) (by following his own imagination) ... would lead to the revelation of the ekadas bhavas None of the previous acaryas had said that. To his time there were many babas, who were accoplished siddhas, that had practiced raganunga bhakti according to the previous acaryas.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 17:21:35 GMT -5
Anadi Dasa wrote: 2. Where is it stated that The guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas (edadas bhavas). Bhaktisiddhanta S: ...On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them. 1. To whom went BSS to get confirmation for his imagined ekadas bhavas. 2. Pertaining going to aks guru, his father says something else: Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasa how is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan the principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 17:33:54 GMT -5
The spiritual identity has eleven aspects (ekadāśa-bhāva). There are many cases of unscrupulous gurus who artificially force-feed these designations on unqualified practitioners, but we cannot call this the mark of spiritual perfection. 1. This does not uphold the idea that guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas (edadas bhavas). 2. If there are unscrupulous gurus that even do not know the raganuga sadhana tattva but they allegedly give siddha pranali, it does not mean siddha pranali would be a false initiation, against raganuga teachings of the previous acaryas
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 17:39:03 GMT -5
Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarüpasiddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation, and the spiritual master’s only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service. Prabhupāder Patrāvalī This is the theory of BSS, - because he had no guru, what to say about a guru who had guided him in raganuga bhakti - a theory which was not taught by the acaryas who practiced raganunga bhakti.
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Post by niscala on Dec 16, 2014 22:11:32 GMT -5
It is completely false that BSST had no guru- he accepted both BVT and Gaura-Kishora das babaji as his gurus, and they provided ample guidance in regard to raganuga bhakti, which is written about in detail in the books of BVT. It is well known that he is Nayana Manjari. BVT is, of course, Kamala Manjari. Your foolish accusations are only condemning yourself.
>>From it one can see that BSS makes two mistakes: 1. The revelation of the ekadas bhavas cannot be done by guru, as all the Gaudiyas of his time stated, including his own father said.
You are conveniently ignoring the context in which he spoke these words. The very sentence before he states that "Therefore the present guru asks his disciple his own inclinations"
So he is stating it cannot be done by the guru, without the guru asking his disciple his inclinations. BVT has agreed with this, stating that without such consultation the guru's instructions are not without fault.
The reason for such instructions is amply given in the goswami literature. If one is given instruction in a rasa different from one's own inclinations, the result will be a conflict in tastes:
"What determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati? In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). (BRS 2.5.38 tika JG)
Impressions are primarily formed by sanga and siksa in a certain rasa. In order to avoid rasa bhasa in the future, the guru, as described in Jaiva Dharma, asks the disciple his own inclinations. Thereafter he gives the ekadasa bhavas to that disciple.
>>>The disciple inclination (for a certain rasa) (by following his own imagination) ... would lead to the revelation of the ekadas bhavas
Here again you have falsely represented the opposing position, thus creating a straw man argument in a vain attempt at deception. NO ONE is suggesting that the disciple follows his imagination. In ALL the sastra it is said he should follow his own natural taste, his inclinations. Why are you attempting to throw mud in the water of their clarity?
>>2. Pertaining going to aks guru, his father says something else: Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasa how is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan the principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan
Yes, the guru will describe AFTER establishing the disciples inclinations. His father, BVT, has already written in Jaiva Dharma that this is the process, the neglect of which makes it faulty. Are you suggesting that BVT is contradicting himself here? That makes no sense. If I say "Determine which course you want to do, then go to the website and enrol in that course. You will get the details of its components on the website" am I contradicting myself if I later say "you have to go to the website and enrol in the course. You will get the details of its components on the website" The establishment of the disciple's inclinations has already taken place. He then begs at the feet of his guru to have the details revealed to him.
BVT: To determine rasa, it is only necessary to examine your own ruci.
If you are unable to reconcile these contradictions then the best course is to be humble and open to a viewpoint that reconciles contradictions (which are only apparent) in a way that honours all persons in all gauidya sampradayas. Your poorly reasoned faulty attacks on persons who are of the highest order of devotees, being able to convert many thousands into devotees of Krsna, is doing great harm to your delicate bhakti-lata.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 16, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -5
Anadi: It's one thing to discuss and inquire about discrepancies, but your tone is highly offensive towards SBSST. As if you know anything about him personally. You only have hearsay from decades ago and you have no way of proving that they are true. I cannot tolerate your ignorant offenses any longer so I'm going to block you from my forum. Go spew your garbage somewhere else. You will never make any progress in this life for your aparadha.
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vishnudas
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BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 17, 2014 18:04:52 GMT -5
Anadi sqeezes out his siddha pranali concept from this > He bolds "guru will describe" and underlines "principles of lila" and "ekadas bhava" Yes, this quote is only saying - the guru describes the "principles". This does not say the guru tells his disciple his eternal personal detailed ekadas-bhavas, he describes only the "principles". Guru's position is enlightenment, encouragement, and to explain the principles of raganuga, and as the sishya gets more and more greed for it, he/she advances and guru assists, communicates and helps the spark to grow into a fire of prema. By pure sanga with guru the student similarly becomes siddha-sarira-realized, by his/her own endeavors, individual unique lobha, ruci, asakti, and bhava. We fly our own planes, this is the gift of free will Sri Krishna has given all His jivas. Guru is the greatest servant of jivas, that is why he is the best Master who understands the rarity of jivas realizing their svarupa-siddhi. Who can say they are on the level of Vijaya Kumara and Vrajanatha who had divya-darshan of Mahaprabhu and all His parikaras there with Him. Their siddha-dehas were different rasas, and yet they had the same guru. Vrajanatha's gurudev encouraged him to follow Subala, Vijaya Kumara was encouraged to follow Lalita. So this shows here that Vaishnava guru-pranali is not a strict line of one particular rasa! In the time of Lord Gauranga and the six Goswamis the siksa guru or diksa guru in His direct line could show disciples their siddha-swarupas, (they all knew each other from their previous incarnations) as the pastimes played out this way by Sri Krishna's arrangement. Only in such rare occurrences does this siddha-pranali happen with legitimacy, without incongruity.
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