anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 28, 2014 17:27:36 GMT -5
hare Krishna, Uttama Sloka
You wrote in your book:
"According to Bhaktivinoda Thäkura (Jaiva-dharma, Harinäma-cintämani), there are five phases in the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity, and the first phase is called, sravana-dasä, i.e., hearing about these specific details to understand fully about the final phases of devotional evolution to perfection – prema."
According to Bhaktivinod Thakur as recorded in Jaiva-dharma, in shravan dasha there is nothing about specific details concerning the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity:
Quote: Gosvāmī: Altogether there are five stages: (1) śravaṇa-daśā (the stage of hearing), (2) varaṇa-daśā (the stage of acceptance), (3) smaraṇa-daśā (the stage of remembrance), (4) bhāvāpana-daśā (the stage of spiritual ecstasy), and (5) prema-sampatti-daśā (the state of attaining the highest success of prema). Vijaya: Kindly explain śravaṇa-daśā. Gosvāmī: When the jīva develops ruci for hearing kṛṣṇa-līlā-kathā, it should be understood that his state of aversion has been removed. At that time, an intense hankering to hear kṛṣṇa-kathā awakens in him, and he has to hear transcendental kṛṣṇa-kathā from the lips of a bhakta who is much more advanced than he is. It is said in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (4.29.40):
tasmin mahan-mukharitā madhu-bhic-caritra pīyūṣa-śeṣa-saritaḥ paritaḥ sravanti tā ye pibanty avitṛṣo nṛpa gāḍha-karṇais tān na spṛśanty aśana-tṛḍ-bhaya-śoka-mohāḥ
In assemblies of saintly people, unlimited rivers of pure nectar emanate from the mouths of great souls in the form of descriptions of the transcendental character, pastimes and qualities of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Those who are never satiated when they drink these nectarean glories through their ears with rapt attention can never be subjected to hunger, thirst, fear, grief, delusion and other anarthas.
Vijaya: Those who are averse (bahirmukha-daśā) also occasionally hear kṛṣṇa-kathā. What kind of śravaṇa is that? Gosvāmī: There is a vast difference between the śravaṇa of kṛṣṇakathā in the state of aversion (bahirmukha-daśā) and śravaṇa in the state of being favorably disposed (antarmukha-daśā). The śravaṇa of those who are bahirmukha takes place by chance, and not because of their śraddhā. Such śravaṇa gives rise to spiritual fortune that leads towards bhakti (bhakty-unmukhī sukṛti), and when this has accumulated over many lifetimes, it gives rise to transcendental śraddhā. At the stage that this transcendental śraddhā is awakened in the heart, śravaṇa of kṛṣṇa-kathā from the lips of saintly personalities is called śravaṇa-daśā.
There are two types of śravaṇa daśā. The first is unmethodical or irregular hearing (krama-hīna śravaṇa-daśā), and the second is hearing methodically in a regular order (krama-śuddha-śravaṇa-daśā).
Vijaya: What is krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā (irregular hearing)? Gosvāmī: Krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā is hearing about kṛṣṇa-līlā in an irregular and unmethodical manner. Hearing kṛṣṇa-līlā with irresolute intelligence results in this sort of unmethodical śravaṇa, because such hearing does not enable one to realize the relationship between the various līlās, and thus rasa does not awaken in his heart.
Vijaya: Please explain about krama-śuddha-śravaṇa-daśā (systematic hearing).
Gosvāmī: Rasa only awakens in one’s heart when kṛṣṇa-līlā is heard methodically or in a regular order with resolute intelligence. When one hears the aṣṭa-kālīya-nitya-līlā (eternal eightfold pastimes) separately from the naimittika-līlās (occasional līlās such as Kṛṣṇa’s divine birth and so on), then his śravaṇa is krama-śuddha. Only this krama-śuddha śravaṇa is desirable on the path of bhajana.
If one hears kṛṣṇa-līlā in the krama-śuddha manner, the sweetness and charm of the līlā is gradually conceived, and the inclination to perform rāgānugā-bhajana appears in the heart of the listener. At that time he thinks within himself, “Aho! Subala has such a wonderful sakhya-bhāva for Kṛṣṇa. I will also render loving sevā to Kṛṣṇa like him in sakhya-rasa.” This type of strong affinity is called lobha (greed).
The performance of kṛṣṇa-bhajana with such lobha, following the sweet bhāvas of the vraja-vāsīs, is called rāgānugā bhakti. I have given the example of sakhya-rasa, but this type of rāgānugā-bhakti is also performed in all the four rasas, beginning with dāsya. By the grace of my Prāṇeśvara Śrī Nimānanda, you have a natural disposition for śṛìgāra-rasa. Because you have heard about the vraja-gopīs exceptional bhāvas and sevā attitude towards Kṛṣṇa, the greed to render premamayi-sevā to Kṛṣṇa like them has appeared in your heart, and that very greed has bestowed upon you the path to obtain such aprākṛṭa-sevā.
In reality, the only śravaṇa-daśā of this process is the confidential conversation between guru and disciple.
Vijaya: When is one’s śravaṇa-daśā considered completed? Gosvāmī: One’s śravaṇa-daśā is completed when one realizes the eternality of kṛṣṇa-līlā. Since kṛṣṇa-līlā is supremely pure and transcendental, it completely captivates the mind and heart. One is then afflicted with acute impatience to enter into it and participate in it.
Śrī Gurudeva describes to the śiṣya the ekādaśa-bhāvas that I mentioned previously. Śravaṇa-daśā should only be consideredcompleted or perfected when the disciple’s disposition of mind is imbued with the loveliness of the līlā. At that time, the disciple is afflicted with intense eagerness and attains varaṇa-daśā (the stage of acceptance).
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Post by Uttamasloka on Nov 28, 2014 22:44:55 GMT -5
hare Krishna, Uttama Sloka You wrote in your book: " According to Bhaktivinoda Thäkura (Jaiva-dharma, Harinäma-cintämani), there are five phases in the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity, and the first phase is called, sravana-dasä, i.e., hearing about these specific details to understand fully about the final phases of devotional evolution to perfection – prema."
According to Bhaktivinod Thakur as recorded in Jaiva-dharma, in shravan dasha there is nothing about specific details concerning the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity: What you quoted from Jaiva-dharma was part of those very details, ie: hearing the lila systematically to invoke the mercy of lobha, without which, one is not yet qualified for raganuga-bhakti. But even before lobha, one must have awakened their desired relationship with Krsna, as well as which Vraja-vasi one desires to follow as an example of their desired raga and bhava. These items are all part of the beginning of realizing one's relationship and identity and they are not likely to happen if one does not properly hear the lila as described in your quote from JD. Once your relationship is established, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and the requisite lobha/greed has arisen, only then are you ready to discuss the details of your identity and that's when the ekadasa-bhavas are discussed between the guru and disciple, ie: the disciple hears about these principles and how they are implemented in one's bhajana, etc. Here is BVT's description of sravana-dasa from chapter 15 of Harinama-cintamani, which confirms what I wrote: Five stages in the cultivation of the gopi identity The complete realization of these eleven aspects of identity develops through five stages experienced in the life of the practitioner. These five stages are the following: (1) hearing (2) acceptance (3) remembering (4) attainment (5) full possession (31) BVT's NOTES: (31) As one progresses in the cultivation of one’s spiritual identity, five stages are progressively crossed. These are: (1) sravana-dasa - the state of hearing (2) varana-dasa - the state of accepting (3) smarana-dasa - the state of remembering (4) apana-dasa - the state of adoption (5) sampatti-dasa - the state of full possession sei gopi-bhavamrte janra lobha haya | veda-dharma-loka tyaji se krsne bhajaya || vraja-lokera kona bhava laya yei bhaje | bhava-yogya deha paia krsna paya vraje || “One who has a strong desire to taste the nectar of the gopis’ loving mood abandons all consideration of the religious principles of the Vedas. He cares not for public opinion, but simply worships Krsna. Whoever worships Krsna in any one of the moods of the residents of Vraja will attain a suitable spiritual body to serve Him there.” (CC 2.8.219, 221) With these words, Ramananda Raya taught that any practitioner who wishes to cultivate the ujjvala-rasa absolutely must take a gopi body. When one hears these pastimes of Lord Krsna and becomes attracted to this particular mood, one must approach a genuine spiritual master to learn these eleven aspects of his spiritual identity. Hearing the spiritual master delineate this identity in theory is called sravana-dasa - the stage of hearing. (end of BVT's notes) This is all part of the progressive evolution of one's identity, and specifically, the beginning stages.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 29, 2014 8:13:39 GMT -5
hare Krishna, Uttama Sloka You wrote in your book: " According to Bhaktivinoda Thäkura (Jaiva-dharma, Harinäma-cintämani), there are five phases in the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity, and the first phase is called, sravana-dasä, i.e., hearing about these specific details to understand fully about the final phases of devotional evolution to perfection – prema."
According to Bhaktivinod Thakur as recorded in Jaiva-dharma, in shravan dasha there is nothing about specific details concerning the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity: What you quoted from Jaiva-dharma was part of those very details, ie: hearing the lila systematically to invoke the mercy of lobha, without which, one is not yet qualified for raganuga-bhakti. But even before lobha, one must have awakened their desired relationship with Krsna, as well as which Vraja-vasi one desires to follow as an example of their desired raga and bhava. ... This commentary doesn't say anything about sravana dasa. In śravaṇa daśā you hear krishna katha because of the taste for krishna katha you were gifted with, not because of lobha for krishna katha. And this taste for hearing is the trigger for addiction which leads to greed - lobha for ... hearing.Sravana dasa means hearing ... krishna katha, not hearing specific detailsof your progressive evolution of your eternal identity.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 29, 2014 8:27:55 GMT -5
hare Krishna, Uttama Sloka You wrote in your book: " According to Bhaktivinoda Thäkura (Jaiva-dharma, Harinäma-cintämani), there are five phases in the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity, and the first phase is called, sravana-dasä, i.e., hearing about these specific details to understand fully about the final phases of devotional evolution to perfection – prema."
According to Bhaktivinod Thakur as recorded in Jaiva-dharma, in shravan dasha there is nothing about specific details concerning the progressive evolution of one’s eternal identity: Once your relationship is established, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and the requisite lobha/greed has arisen, only then are you ready to discuss the details of your identity and that's when the ekadasa-bhavas are discussed between the guru and disciple, ie: the disciple hears about these principles and how they are implemented in one's bhajana, etc. Here is BVT's description of sravana-dasa from chapter 15 of Harinama-cintamani, which confirms what I wrote: Five stages in the cultivation of the gopi identity The complete realization of these eleven aspects of identity develops through five stages experienced in the life of the practitioner. These five stages are the following: (1) hearing (2) acceptance (3) remembering (4) attainment (5) full possession (31) BVT's NOTES: (31) As one progresses in the cultivation of one’s spiritual identity, five stages are progressively crossed. These are: (1) sravana-dasa - the state of hearing (2) varana-dasa - the state of accepting (3) smarana-dasa - the state of remembering (4) apana-dasa - the state of adoption (5) sampatti-dasa - the state of full possession This doesn't say that in sravana dasa one hears about specific details of one's progressive evolution, but that one's progressive evolution of one's eternal identity starts with sravana dasa. Sravana dasa is hearing Krishna katha more or less methodically which would lead to the next stage, when those specific details will be in a general form revealed.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 29, 2014 8:35:41 GMT -5
sei gopi-bhavamrte janra lobha haya | veda-dharma-loka tyaji se krsne bhajaya || vraja-lokera kona bhava laya yei bhaje | bhava-yogya deha paia krsna paya vraje || “One who has a strong desire to taste the nectar of the gopis’ loving mood abandons all consideration of the religious principles of the Vedas. He cares not for public opinion, but simply worships Krsna. Whoever worships Krsna in any one of the moods of the residents of Vraja will attain a suitable spiritual body to serve Him there.” (CC 2.8.219, 221) With these words, Ramananda Raya taught that any practitioner who wishes to cultivate the ujjvala-rasa absolutely must take a gopi body. When one hears these pastimes of Lord Krsna and becomes attracted to this particular mood, one must approach a genuine spiritual master to learn these eleven aspects of his spiritual identity. Hearing the spiritual master delineate this identity in theory is called sravana-dasa - the stage of hearing. (end of BVT's notes) Hearing the eleven aspects of his spiritual identity form the spiritual master is not sravana dasa but varana dasa!. "Vijaya: Those who are averse (bahirmukha-daśā) also occasionally hear kṛṣṇa-kathā. What kind of śravaṇa is that? ....At the stage that this transcendental śraddhā is awakened in the heart, śravaṇa of kṛṣṇa-kathā from the lips of saintly personalities is called śravaṇa-daśā."
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Post by Uttamasloka on Nov 29, 2014 10:41:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry but you are wrong on this point. The second stage, ie: varana-dasa is acceptance of your identity as defined by the ekadasa-bhavas. You cannot accept something if you have not learned about it. BVT makes that very clear in HNC which I quoted above. Read it again. Sravana-dasa is "not" simply hearing the lila. It is learning the theory of the ekadasa-bhavas, etc, which is the beginning of the progressive evolution of your identity.
From HNC, continuing from my last quote: "When the disciple eagerly accepts this identification, that is called varana-dasa - the stage of accepting."
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 29, 2014 16:01:20 GMT -5
... BVT makes that very clear in HNC which I quoted above. Read it again. Sravana-dasa is "not" simply hearing the lila. It is learning the theory of the ekadasa-bhavas, etc, which is the beginning of the progressive evolution of your identity. From HNC, continuing from my last quote: "When the disciple eagerly accepts this identification, that is called varana-dasa - the stage of accepting." 1. Baran-dasha (the stage of accepting) Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure lobha hoile guru pade jijnasa udaya kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adesh ei bhave lila modhye koraha prabhesh guru rupe siddha-bhava koriya sravan sei bhava sviya cite koribe baran (Harinam cintamani) “When lobha arises upon hearing Radha-Krishna’s Asta kala lilas (which took place in sravan dasa), the disciple may ask, Oh gurudeva, how is it possibile to attain such lilas? If pleased with the disciple, the Guru will relate the lila tattva in context with the sadhaka’s ekadas-bhava saying, You may enter the lila in this way. This stage of acceptance is called Baran-dasha.”In this sloka the Guru’s statement: Ei bhave lila modhye koraha prabhesh – You may enter the lila in this way – carries the following meaning: With the Guru’s blessings the sadhak may now (mentally) enter Radha-Krishna’s pastimes to perform manasi-seva according to the asta-kala format. Siddha-pranali, which takes place at this stage, represents the seed of one’s siddha-svarupa which will gradually grow to blossom at the mature stage of prema. 2. BVT says cleary what srvavana dasa is: Here it is the quote: " There are two types of śravaṇa daśā. The first is unmethodical or irregular hearing (krama-hīna śravaṇa-daśā), and the second is hearing methodically in a regular order (krama-śuddha-śravaṇa-daśā).
Vijaya: What is krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā (irregular hearing)? Gosvāmī: Krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā is hearing about kṛṣṇa-līlā in an irregular and unmethodical manner. Hearing kṛṣṇa-līlā with irresolute intelligence results in this sort of unmethodical śravaṇa, because such hearing does not enable one to realize the relationship between the various līlās, and thus rasa does not awaken in his heart.
Vijaya: Please explain about krama-śuddha-śravaṇa-daśā (systematic hearing).
Gosvāmī: Rasa only awakens in one’s heart when kṛṣṇa-līlā is heard methodically or in a regular order with resolute intelligence. When one hears the aṣṭa-kālīya-nitya-līlā (eternal eightfold pastimes) separately from the naimittika-līlās (occasional līlās such as Kṛṣṇa’s divine birth and so on), then his śravaṇa is krama-śuddha. Only this krama-śuddha śravaṇa is desirable on the path of bhajana."
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Nov 29, 2014 16:05:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry but you are wrong on this point. This kind of afectiv argument should never occur on this level. sincerely yours
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Post by niscala on Dec 4, 2014 23:08:22 GMT -5
The author of the quotes give, Bhaktivonode Thakura, uses "sravana dasa" in two ways--to describe hearing lila katha, and also the hearing from one's guru, the eleven aspects of one's spiritual identity:
"With these words, Ramananda Raya taught that any practitioner who wishes to cultivate the ujjvala-rasa absolutely must take a gopi body. When one hears these pastimes of Lord Krsna and becomes attracted to this particular mood, one must approach a genuine spiritual master to learn these eleven aspects of his spiritual identity. Hearing the spiritual master delineate this identity in theory is called sravana-dasa - the stage of hearing."
BVT also used it in relation to hearing lila katha, so it can be used either way, following his precedent. Arguing that it can be only used this way and not that way, not only ignores the evidence, it is uselessly argumentative. Going that route when reading, one misses out on a lot of valuable lessons to be learnt.
Even if Uttamasloka used it wrongly, for arguments sake, the imperfection should be overlooked as in the verse: "These transcendental literatures, even if imperfectly composed, are fit to be heard and sung about by men who are thoroughly honest"
The question therefore, is not whether the composition is perfect or imperfect but whether it is based on the transcendental messages of the acaryas and personal realization. The constant referral to their opinions validates the former, and the powerful presentation, with use of logic and reason, validates the latter.
Furthermore, a tree can be known by its fruits- if we find that it helps develop our love for Krsna, which various devotees including myself have found to be the case, then it is literature that is transcendental, and we act unwisely to focus on whatever imperfections it might have.
But that is just an additional thought, as the imperfection appears to be only in your understanding of the different meanings and applications that BVT gave the term "sravana dasa".
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 5, 2014 10:50:28 GMT -5
The author of the quotes give, Bhaktivonode Thakura, uses "sravana dasa" in two ways--to describe hearing lila katha, and also the hearing from one's guru, the eleven aspects of one's spiritual identity... Furthermore, a tree can be known by its fruits- if we find that it helps develop our love for Krsna, which various devotees including myself have found to be the case, then it is literature that is transcendental, and we act unwisely to focus on whatever imperfections it might have. Thank you for your help. By a carefully study of the text, one can see that according to BVT the two types of shravan depend on the attained qualification. When the raganunga sadhaka attained ruci for Krishna lila, the sadhaka will hear from guru Krishna lila in the krama shuddha type of shravanam. When the raganunga sadhaka attained lobha to enter Krishna lila in a particular relation with Krishna, the sadhaka will hear from guru about Krishna lila but in relation with his own ekādaśa-bhāvas, which at this time will be revealed by guru. prathama śravaṇa daśā
nijāpekṣā śreṣṭha śuddha-bhāvuka ye jana | bhāva-mārge gurudeva sei mahājana ||61|| tāṅhāra śrīmukhe bhāva-tattvera śravaṇa | ha-ile śravaṇa-daśā haya prakaṭana ||62||
bhāva-tattva
bhāva-tattva dvi-prakāra karaha vicāra | nija ekādaśa bhāva kṛṣṇa-līlā āra ||63||
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 5, 2014 17:29:13 GMT -5
None of the purva-acaryas say that the guru will reveal the ekadasa-bhavas. How can the guru reveal something that has not yet manifest? They are revealed to the sadhaka internally in the course of one's sadhana and bhajana by Krsna's mercy and the guru's role is to assist the disciple in confirming and refining them.
In Harināma-cintāmaṇi, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in his commentary in Chapter 15:
When the spiritual master is ascertaining the aspirant’s pure personal inclinations, the aspirant should also help the spiritual master by speaking his mind about his own preferences. As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless.
The inclinations that have been shaped by one’s meritorious deeds, through both this and previous lives, are called ruci or taste. This particular inclination, however, is integral to the soul. Should a person not have a natural inclination for śṛṅgāra-rasa, (mādhurya-rasa) but for servitude or friendship, then he should be instructed accordingly; if not, there will be undesirable consequences. HNC, 15.73-74
Letter to disciple from SBSST:
I have noted your letter dated the 24th. The aṣta-kālīya-līlā, about which you have heard from the Vaiṣṇavas in Vṛndāvana, should be highly regarded no doubt. But the way in which these pastimes are conceived of in the contaminated state is totally corrupt.
Some fortunate individuals are capable of knowing these things after chanting for a long time, for that is the identity of the true self. But it can only be known after one is freed of mental contaminations. With the awakening of this spiritual identity, one automatically has constant cognition of his spiritual form.
Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done. On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them.
The spiritual identity has eleven aspects (ekadāśa-bhāva). There are many cases of unscrupulous gurus who artificially force-feed these designations on unqualified practitioners, but we cannot call this the mark of spiritual perfection.
Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarupa-siddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation, and the spiritual master’s only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service. Prabhupāder Patrāvalī.
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Post by niscala on Dec 5, 2014 21:53:38 GMT -5
>>None of the purva-acaryas say that the guru will reveal the ekadasa-bhavas. How can the guru reveal something that has not yet manifest?
What about siddha pranali initiation, which as I understand is receiving knowledge of one's ekadasa bhavas from the guru at the time of initiation- is it unbonafide? I thought that is what Bhaktivinode Thakura received from his guru- which may put this letter from Bhaktisiddhanta in the category of adjustment to time, place and circumstance. Or do you mean that siddha pranali diksa only happens after the disciple has revealed his inclinations to the guru?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 5, 2014 23:38:51 GMT -5
As I stated in my book, there are a variety of implementations of siddha-pranali among the various Gaudiya lineages. Not all gurus give these details at diksa. Some of them wait until the disciple is genuinely qualified for raganuga-bhakti.
I wasn't able to confirm with certainty whether BVT's guru (Bipin Bihari Dasa Gosvami) gave him the details of his ekadasa-bhavas or whether they worked them out collaboratively, as BVT indicates it should be done in his books.
I believe SBSST was specifically referring to gurus who were giving siddha-pranali indiscriminately to unqualified disciples at that time, and who themselves were not fully qualified.
The awakening of one's desired rasa with Krsna must take place first in the heart of the disciple as a precursor to developing lobha, which is the qualification for beginning raganuga-bhakti. Then one must ascertain which Vraja-vasi they will follow. Once these elements are firmly in place, one is ready for the next step, which is to consider the ekadasa-bhavas of one's identity.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 7, 2014 9:38:58 GMT -5
None of the purva-acaryas say that the guru will reveal the ekadasa-bhavas. BVT states in Harinama Cintamani that one should hear about one's own ekadasa bhava from guru. This is the last initiation - siddha pranali, when also the chain of sakhis begining wiht one's guru and up to the nitya sakhi in Krishna lila that appeared in Caitanya lila as one of His parikars and generated such a chain, which is called guru-parampara, one belongs to, will be also revealed.
Sravan dasa - The stage of hearing from guru -
nijapekha srestha suddha bhavuk je jana bhavamarge gurudeva sei mahajan tahar sri mukhe bhava tattver sravan hoile sravan dasa hoy prakatan bhava tattva dviprakar koraba bicar nija ekadasbhava Krishna lila ara (Harinama Cintamani) One requires the best, pure person, taster of bhava. That guru, which is on the bhava path is a great personality From such a mouth one should hear the truth about bhava
this is called the stage of sravan dasaBhava tattva (about he listens) is of two types- his own eleven types of bhava -nija ekadas-bhava - - and the pastimes of Krishna.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 7, 2014 9:49:00 GMT -5
How can the guru reveal something that has not yet manifest? If there would be manifested, it will be no need for guru to reveal it. That which is manifeseted is only the inclination for a certain type of rasa, which guru himself by Krishnas arrangement also influencend it by his type of deliniating Krishna lila.
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