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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 7, 2014 16:40:29 GMT -5
This means the disciple should hear about the theory of the ekadasa-bhavas - not that the guru simply tells him these details. None of the acaryas teach that the guru gives these details or even that the guru "knows" these details. I already gave you the reference from HNC where BVT says the guru's guidance in this regard is not infallible. Did you miss that part?
Siddha-pranali is not an initiation. That is not confirmed in any of the books of the acaryas. Diksa is initiation into the mantras. That's all. And none of the acaryas state that it is absolutely essential to know the siddha identities of one's lineage. That is not mandatory nor an absolute pre-requisite for raganuga-bhakti according to the acaryas. The references you gave do not support that idea. It is not in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu or Bhakti-sandarbhas.
None of the acaryas say that the guru "tells" you or "reveals" these things to you. None of them say that. That is not how it works.
That is not necessarily always the case. There is no doubt that association has a powerful influence, but ultimately it is the jiva's will and desire which is the final factor. WE must choose. Here is what VCT has to say in RVC:
When this greed has appeared in the heart, one becomes enlightened in different ways. Uddhava says in Śrīmad-bhāgavatam, 11.29.6:
“Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself through the ācārya or through the agency of the Supersoul.”
Thus, some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Kṛṣṇa and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned rāgānugā devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 8, 2014 12:13:30 GMT -5
This means the disciple should hear about the theory of the ekadasa-bhavas - not that the guru simply tells him these details. 1. What is the theory of the ekadasa-bhavas? 2. BVT says: Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure lobha hoile guru pade jijnasa udaya kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adesh ei bhave lila modhye koraha prabhesh guru rupe siddha-bhava koriya sravan sei bhava sviya cite koribe baran (Harinam cintamani) “Greed - lobha arises like a queen upon hearing Radha-Krishna’s Asta kala lila - Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasa how is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnanthe principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatanAs his Lord (guru) is satified with him (the disciple), he (guru) will give instructions - prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adeshabout the way he (may) enter - modhye koraha prabhesh that bhava and lila (he gave instructions about) - ei bhave lila Hearing about perfect ekadas bhava - koriya sravan siddha-bhavaand the form of the guru (in lila, as his eternal guiding (sakhi) form) - guru rupewhen that own ekadas bhava comes in his citta (consciousness) - sei bhava sviya cite This stage is called Baran-dasha - the stage of acceptance.” So, according BVT 1. when you hear Krishna lila, lobha arises (in due time) not the ekadas bhava.2. if the disciple would know his ekadas bhavas, he would know how to enter the asta kala lila, and he wouldn't need to ask his guru in this connection. 3. guru describes the ekadas bhava (according to the taste of his disciple) 4. guru describes also his sakhi form to the disciple and is his guide in the lila eternally. As he got information in an unbrocken chain of sakhis, he will give information to his disciple about his yuta - guru parampara. As long as BSS never got instruction in raganuga bhakti, having no guru, of course that in Gaudyia Mat and in whatever came out of it there are no instructions pertaining the ekadas bhava and the unbrocken chain of sakhis, the yuta or guru parampara one belongs to.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 8, 2014 12:40:06 GMT -5
I already gave you the reference from HNC where BVT says the guru's guidance in this regard is not infallible. Did you miss that part? BVT put a condition on this assertion of him: Only! " As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless." In the Siddha-pranali initiation guru gives the eternal name of the sadhaka: sri gurudeva je Manjari nama diben, sei nami sadhaker nityanama boliya janibe | brajalalanadiker modhye nama dvaraminirama boibe || (Jaiva Dharma) “The manajari name that the Guru selects is the sadhak’s eternal name which renders the sadhak-manjari “manorama” (attractiveness) among the other Braja-sundaris.”
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 8, 2014 12:50:52 GMT -5
This is the last initiation - siddha pranali, when also the chain of sakhis beginning wiht one's guru and up to the nitya sakhi in Krishna lila that appeared in Caitanya lila as one of His parikars and generated such a chain, which is called guru-parampara, one belongs to, will be also revealed.Siddha-pranali is not an initiation. That is not confirmed in any of the books of the acaryas. Diksa is initiation into the mantras. That's all. And none of the acaryas state that it is absolutely essential to know the siddha identities of one's lineage. That is not mandatory nor an absolute pre-requisite for raganuga-bhakti according to the acaryas. The references you gave do not support that idea. It is not in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu or Bhakti-sandarbhas. brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja (cc Madhya 19.151) After wandering thoughout the universe the fortunate Jiva receives the bhakti lata bija (the seed of the plant of divine devotion) by the grace of Guru and Krishna. What is bhakti lata bija? Mahajan commentators of this verse say: Diksha. Diksha is the seed which signifies the beginning of devotional life. Diksha however becomes complete with Siddha pranali. Why? Because it is the Guru’s foremost duty to establish the disciples sambandha with Krishna The relationship begins with Gopal mantra and Kama-Gayatri and is concluded with ekadas-bhava. 1. The mantra tells who the worshippable Devata is; 2. Siddha prananli tells who the worshiper is. For a sambhanda with Krishna both are required. Through guru’s grace all speculation and unnecessary guesswork concerning one’s siddha-svarupa is removed. Thus Caitanya Mahaprabhu has introduced the system of Siddha pranali through His intimate parshad Sri Gopal Guru Gosvami for all future generations of Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Siddha-pranali initiation starts with guru giving the eternal name of the sadhaka: sri gurudeva je Manjari nama diben, sei nami sadhaker nityanama boliya janibe | brajalalanadiker modhye nama dvaraminirama boibe || (Jaiva Dharma) “The manajari name that the Guru selects is the sadhak’s eternal name which renders the sadhak-manjari “manorama” (attractiveness) among the other Braja-sundaris.”
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 8, 2014 13:08:35 GMT -5
If there would be manifested, it will be no need for guru to reveal it.None of the acaryas say that the guru "tells" you or "reveals" these things to you. None of them say that. That is not how it works. BVT does not agree with you. Siddha-Pranali 1. Nama (name) sri gurudeva je Manjari nama diben, sei nami sadhaker nityanama boliya janibe | brajalalanadiker modhye nama dvaraminirama boibe || (Jaiva Dharma) “The manajari n ame that the Guru selects is the sadhak’s eternal name which renders the sadhak-manjari “manorama” (attractiveness) among the other Braja-sundaris.” 2) Rupa (form) sadhaker ruci anusare sri gurudeva rupa jouvan sampanna ekti kishori siddharupa nirnaya koriben | acintya cinmaya rupa visistha no haile sri radhikar paricarika ke haite pare ?||(Jaiva Dharma) “According to the sadhak’s ruci the Guru will prescribe a lovely kishori siddha svarupa. Without having an inconceivably beautiful form, could anyone possibly become Radha’s dasi?” ...
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 9, 2014 16:31:41 GMT -5
I never said otherwise. And there are no hard and fast rules regarding raganuga - it is not strict like vaidhi. Revelations can come at any time and it is different and unique for each devotee. You cannot force these concepts into some fixed ideas.
That is not a logical extrapolation. Things may be revealed to someone due to past samskaras, even before meeting a guru. Here is what VCT says in RVC:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa (2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana (2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
This means the guru teaches the disciple about the concept of the ekadasa-bhavas and how they relate to his/her siddha-deha. The guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas as a starting point for determining their full scope, which is the meaning of "according to the taste of the disciple".
I disagree with this point. None of the acaryas say one's guru is one's eternal guide in the lila. It may not even be your diksa guru who helps you in this way. It may be a siksa guru. We are instructed by all of the acaryas to take shelter of a Vraja-vasi and follow "their" raga - not our guru's raga. We will be eternally in the group of that particular Vraja-vasi, and not necessarily our guru's group. WE are the one's who choose who we will follow. It is "self"-realization, not guru imposition. We are realizing our eternal relationship and identity and that is OUR personal realization - no one tells you who you are - you have to realize it for yourself. That's what the acaryas teach.
You clearly have some issues with Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati because they did not give these details in the same ways that other traditional Gaudiya lineages did. That is your prerogative. However, YOU do not know for a fact that SBSST did not have a guru. Were you there? No. You just blindly believe what others have told you, and who knows whether their information is accurate? You don't know. Be careful because you are very close to Vaisnava aparadha when you make such assertions with no support. I will not tolerate that on my forum. Consider this your first warning.
It is not a hard and fast rule that the guru gives one's name. In Dhyanacandra's Smarana-paddhati, it simply states: Nama – Her name shall be one similar to that of Sri Rupa-manjari and the other vraja-gopis.
The seed of bhakti given by the guru at diksa is not one's rasa. It is the seed of the svarupa-sakti of which bhakti is a part. That is the beginning of one's spiritual development. We must establish our relationship with Krsna. It is NOT given by anyone else. It is OUR identity and relationship and it has to come from our hearts. The guru teaches us the sadhana and bhajana and gives us appropriate guidance and with Krsna's mercy these things unfold.
None of the acaryas say anything about siddha-pranali. That is a later development by various Vaisnava lineages and it is not an absolute requirement to know the siddha identities of one's lineage. That is not in any of the books of the acaryas, and therefore it is not mandatory - it is optional.
All of the sastras and acaryas say that Krsna appears in the form which the devotee has desired during sadhana and bhajana. It is our desire that decides which aspect of Krsna in Vraja is most attractive to us. The mantra includes this.
There is no need to speculate or guess. Once you have obtained lobha these details will be revealed to you in due course of time. No one "tells you" who you are. I repeat - this is SELF-realization. That means we are realizing our eternal relationship and identity. None of the acaryas say that your guru will tell you who you are. Maybe that's how it works in your lineage but I don't accept that and neither is it confirmed by the purva-acaryas or subsequent acaryas.
None of the acaryas have used the term siddha-pranali, nor have they indicated that it is a type of initiation. That notion has evolved since the time of Lord Caitanya - He did not specifically teach it that way and nor is it taught like that in Dhyanacandra's Smarana-paddhati. The ekadasa-bhavas must come from the disciple based on their own personal inclinations and desires and the guru assists the disciple in this process with expert guidance. There should be no imposition by the guru.
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 9, 2014 21:45:15 GMT -5
We need to understand the purpose of the ekadasa-bhava so that we understand why it isn't taught in the distant past like it was taught by many in the later past. What exactly is the process that ekadasa-bhava is promoting? Why is it promoting that?
The purpose is to aid in the transformation of the self-conception of a sadhaka, specifically a male sadahaka into developing a female psyche. Otherwise it isn't necessary. It is simply a meditation on internally seeing yourself as a girl. The details of name, etc, are just there to fill out the self-conception, they are not important in and of themselves. It doesn't matter what your "eternal name" is said to be, or what group of girls you belong to, how old you are etc. That information is simply to aid in the self-conception of changing your psyche from male to female. My point is that the details are unimportant. The process is the important part, whether you meditate on seeing yourself as a girl through a specific diksha or with a specific name from a specific guru, that is superfluous. It just makes it seem more official for people who need that.
The more important process of sadhana for the raganuga bhakta is in understanding the nature of the mind's connection to Krishna via Paramatma/Antaryami. It is through understanding the truth of how the mind works* that we are able to enter into direct communication with Krishna and then all the reality of your nitya-bhava is directly revealed. All else before that point, whether you received info about your nitya-bhava from a guru or not, is no longer a concern. Deeper realities await.
Why wasn't it taught by the original acharyas? Maybe as time went on parts or places in Indian culture became more macho, and the need to de-masculinize maybe needed some additional sadhana.
*All thoughts are created by Paramamta, all memory is given by Paramatma, everything you hear in your mind whether or not you think you are controlling or creating it is not you or under your control. Knowing this you can become qualified to have Krishna begin to use that control of your thoughts to speak directly to you, and through everyone and everything else. That is the beginning of bhava-bhakti, where Krishna reveals himself in the mind (Madhurya Kadambini Ch 8 - bhAve dhyAna mAtram eva bhagavataH sphUrtiH and Srimad Bhagavatam 3.28.36)
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 10, 2014 8:38:13 GMT -5
I never said otherwise. And there are no hard and fast rules regarding raganuga - it is not strict like vaidhi. Revelations can come at any time and it is different and unique for each devotee. You cannot force these concepts into some fixed ideas. 1.First rule - without guru doesn't work When the raganunga sadhaka attained ruci for Krishna (for Gaudiyas that means Krishna in Vrindavan) lila, the sadhaka will hear from guru Krishna lila in the krama shuddha type of shravanam. 2.Second rule - without guru doesn't work When the raganunga sadhaka attained lobha to enter Krishna lila in a particular relation with Krishna, the sadhaka will hear from guru about Krishna lila but in relation with his own ekādaśa-bhāvas, which at this time will be revealed by guru. BVT says: Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure lobha hoile guru pade jijnasa udaya kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adesh ei bhave lila modhye koraha prabhesh guru rupe siddha-bhava koriya sravan sei bhava sviya cite koribe baran (Harinam cintamani) “Greed - lobha arises like a queen upon hearing Radha-Krishna’s Asta kala lila - Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasahow is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnanthe principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan As his Lord (guru) is satified with him (the disciple), he (guru) will give instructions - prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adeshabout the way he (may) enter - modhye koraha prabhesh that bhava and lila (he gave instructions about) - ei bhave lila Hearing about perfect ekadas bhava - koriya sravan siddha-bhava and the form of the guru (in lila, as his eternal guiding (sakhi) form) - guru rupewhen that own ekadas bhava comes in his citta (consciousness) - sei bhava sviya cite This stage is called Baran-dasha - the stage of acceptance.”
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 10, 2014 8:55:23 GMT -5
That is not a logical extrapolation. This is not a extrapolation. The disciple asks that because he was not initiated in his own svarup. Guru will initiate him as stated in Harinam Cintamani, see the quote from the previous post.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 10, 2014 9:03:31 GMT -5
... Things may be revealed to someone due to past samskaras, even before meeting a guru. Here is what VCT says in RVC: There are two causes for the appearance of greed: (1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa (2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee: (1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana (2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru. It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6 s Your quotes say that the rule ist that after lobbha (greed) the raganuga sadhaka takes shelter of the guru Why? To ask him how he can enter Radha-Krishna lila, and for this the sadhaka gets the siddha pranali initiation, the initiation in his own savarupa.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 10, 2014 9:20:12 GMT -5
This means the guru teaches the disciple about the concept of the ekadasa-bhavas and how they relate to his/her siddha-deha. The guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas as a starting point for determining their full scope, which is the meaning of "according to the taste of the disciple". 1. Taste, ruci, in this connection means that the raganunga sadhaka wants to follow a certain mood of a vrajabasi, but he does not know how. In this connection BVT states clearly in HC: Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasa how is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan the principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan2. Where is it stated that The guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas (edadas bhavas).
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 10, 2014 21:52:52 GMT -5
I disagree with this point. None of the acaryas say one's guru is one's eternal guide in the lila. It may not even be your diksa guru who helps you in this way. It may be a siksa guru. We are instructed by all of the acaryas to take shelter of a Vraja-vasi and follow "their" raga - not our guru's raga. We will be eternally in the group of that particular Vraja-vasi, and not necessarily our guru's group. WE are the one's who choose who we will follow. It is "self"-realization, not guru imposition. We are realizing our eternal relationship and identity and that is OUR personal realization - no one tells you who you are - you have to realize it for yourself. That's what the acaryas teach. Sripad Dhyanacandra writes in his Paddhati: Sripad Dhyanacandra writes in his Paddhati: sakhinam sangini-rupam atmanam bhavana-mayim | ajna-seva-parakashtha-kripalankara-bhushitam | tatas ca manjari-rupan gurvadin api samsmaret || DhPad 110 “One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, decorated with the ornaments of orders, aspiration for service and mercy. Thereafter, one should meditate on the manjari-forms beginning with the guru.” As mentioned by Sripad Dhyanacandra, this contemplation also involves meditation on one’s siddha-pranali, or the chain of one’s gurus in their siddha-forms. One may not directly jump into the presence of Yugala-kisora; it is imperative to approach them through one’s revered gurus, both in this world and in the siddha-realm. tatradau manjari-rupan gurvadin tu sviyan sviyan pranaly-anusarena samsmaret sri-guru-parama-guru-krameneti tatah sri-radhikam dhyayet | tatah sri-nandanandanam || DhPad 344 “In this meditation, before anything else, the practitioner should meditate on the manjari-forms of his guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika, and after that Sri Nandanandana (Krishna).” The descriptions of oneself, one’s gurus and the other manjaris are all learned from the guru. Whenever in doubt, the sadhaka ought not to venture into the realm of creative imagination, but rather consult a person acquainted with the realm of the lila. sarva-lakshana-sampanna bhava-havadi-bhushita | guru-prasada-janani guru-rupa-priyanuga || DhP 87 “Endowed with all qualities, ornamented by alluring gestures, moods and so forth, she is born of the grace of the guru, being a dear follower of guru-rupa- sakhi.” The concept of guru-rupa-sakhi, or guru in the form of a sakhi, is commonly featured in the songs and prayers of our acaryas. For example, in the Prarthana of Srila Thakura Mahasaya: kanaka katora puri, sugandhi candana buri, donhakara sri-ange dhaliba | guru-rupa-sakhi vame, tribhanga bhangima thame, camarera batasa kariba ||Prarthana 30 “With fragrant candana filling a golden jug, I anoint their beautiful limbs. Standing on the left side of guru-rupa-sakhi before the one with a three-fold bending form, I fan with a camara.” Thus, staying under the guidance of the guru both in this world and in the siddha-realm, one engages in raganuga-sadhana. The mercy and revelations of bhagavan and His parshadas descend to this world through the medium of guru-pranali the unbroken chain of gurus which leads to a nitya sakhi. As in the Siddhanta-ratna of Baladeva Vidyabhushana: esha tu bhaktis tan nitya parikaraganad arabhyedanintaneshvapi tad bhakteshu mandakiniva pracarati … sa tathabhuta nitya-dhamni nitya-parshadeshu nityam cakasti surasarid iva tad bhakta-pranalya prapance ‘vatarati ||Siddhanta- ratna “This bhakti is being promulgated from the nitya-parikaras (eternal associates) of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini-river (the celestial Ganges). Bhakti is always present among the nitya-parshadas in the nitya-dhama (eternal abode), flowing to this world through the bhakta-pranali (channel of devotees) like the stream of the Mandakini.” The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for him and is blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus. A practical example of introduction to a manjari-svarupa is found in the sixth chapter of Prema-vilasa, as Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami bestows diksha-mantra to Srinivasa Acarya. radha-krishna-mantra kahe kara-yuge dhari | kama-bija sunaila anguli anusari || ei saba mantra tumi karibe smarana | yei kale tad-asraye karibe manana || guna-manjarikasraye mani-manjarika tumi | tomara yuthera vivarana kahi saba ami || upa guna rati rasa manjulamanjula | ei saba sange sangi ei anukula || seva ragatmika raga bhajanera mata | sri-rupa gosanira vakya achaye sammata || Bhatta Gosvami spoke the Radha-Krishna mantra, holding Srinivasa’s two hands, and explained the counting of kama-bija with fingers. “You should meditate on all these mantras; at that time, contemplate on taking shelter of them. You are Mani-manjari under the shelter of Guna-manjari. I shall tell you all about your yutha (group of sakhis). Rupa, Guna, Rati, Rasa and the charming Manjula – your welfare is in being their companion. In raga- bhajana, seva is like that of the ragatmikas; this is the conclusion in Sri Rupa Gosvami’s words.”
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 11, 2014 9:27:35 GMT -5
You clearly have some issues with Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati because they did not give these details in the same ways that other traditional Gaudiya lineages did. An inquistive person would search for the reason óf the deviation from the traditional Gaudiya lineages, or being afraid of the aparadha ghost will renounce. 1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it? In this way the whole principle of initiation is undermined and made into a laughing stock. In Sri Isana Nagara's Advaita Prakasa (8.118-122) it is described how Sita-devi, the consort of Advaita Prabhu, received initiation in a dream from Srila Madhavendra Puri, but that Advaita Prabhu still found it necessary to give her a concrete, audible initiation. sita kohe bahu bhagye toma painu dekha dehatma sodhana koro diya mantra diksa tabe puri sitare krsna mantra dila jagi sita mata kohe kiba camatkare svapnavese puriraja mantra dila more acarye kohila sita sarva vivarana tiho kohe bhagye tuya khandila bandhana prabhu sei mantra puna vidhi anusare subha ksane samarpila sva bharya sita re"Sita devi told Madhavendra Puri: "I am very fortunate to meet you. Please sanctify my body and soul by giving me mantra initiation." Then Madhavendra Puri gave Sita krsna-mantra after which he vanished. When mother Sita awoke, she said: "How amazing! Madhavendra Puriraja gave me mantra in a visionary dream!" Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: "You are so fortunate that now all your bondage is destroyed." According to the rules, and on an auspicious moment, Advaita Prabhu then gave His wife Sita that mantra again." 2) As a raganuga bhakti sadhaka Bhaktisiddhanta, if he were Gaurakisora Das Babaji's disciple, he should have gotten from him the uninterupted chain of gurus - guru-parampara - guru pranali - which should leed him in Caitanya lila to an associate of Sri Caitanya, which was not the case, as seen from the chain of gurus presented by him as his guru pranali: 1. Gaurakisora Das Babaji. 2. Bhaktivinoda Thakur (but Bhaktivinoda Thakur was not the guru of Gaurakisora Das Babaji). 3. Jagannath das Babaji (but Jagannath das Babaji was not the guru of Bhaktivinoda Thakur; his guru was Vipin Bihari Gosvami). 4. Baladeva Vidyabhusana (but Baladeva Vidyabhusana was not the guru of Jagannath das Babajiwas; he lived 150 years after Baladeva Vidyabhusana). 5. Visvanatha Cakravarti (but Visvanatha Cakravarti was not the guru of Baladeva Vidyabhusana; his guru was Radha Damodara Gosvami). 6. Narottama Das Thakura (but Narottama Das Thakura was not the guru of Visvanatha Cakravarti; his guru was Radha Ramana Cakravarti). 7. Raghunatha das Gosvami (but Raghunatha das Gosvami was not the guru of Narottama Das Thakura; his guru was Lokanatha Gosvami). 8. Jiva Gosvami (but Jiva Gosvami was not the guru of Raghunatha das Gosvami; his guru was Yadunandana Acarya). 9. Rupa Gosvami who was the guru of Jiva Gosvami 10. Sanatana Gosvami who was the guru of Rupa Gosvami Here there are only two mathches in this "siddha pranali". People that do not know the raganuga sadhana siddhanta say that this guru pranali is perfectly ok and call it "bhagavat" paramapara Any authentic chain is "bhagavat" parampara a chain of realized souls which is given by the realized guru in the siddha pranali ceremony. This ceremony is usually defaimed by vaishnavas that are outside of the traditional Gaudiya lineages.
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 12, 2014 2:14:10 GMT -5
ANADI wrote: (quote) An inquistive person would search for the reason óf the deviation from the traditional Gaudiya lineages, or being afraid of the aparadha ghost will renounce.
1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) (unquote)
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There is good reason to "be afraid of the aparadha ghost". What you call a "deviation" in your weak analysis is actually simply a "change" that was needed at a time when siddha pranali was a fad popular amongst eager opportunists in the guise of pure self-realised gurus to gain disciples, popularity, maybe even more base material acquisitions. SBSST noticed it. But the time was right for change, and SBSST filled that necessity which did manifest by his mercy. You base your contention of siddha pranali's importance on a strict "ceremony" by "traditional" lineages. Let us pray that these traditional lineages do not deceive their followers into thinking they are all manjaris, because that is not accepted by Srila Rupa Goswami's line. Your personal raga cannot be installed into your heart like a computer upload by any expert master. In Srimad Bhagavatam, Can. 5, Ch 10 Text 16, Srila Prabhupada comments on two types of enlightenments: [1] according to dynasty and [2] other according to disciplic succession :- "There are two types of families — one according to dynasty and the other according to disciplic succession. In either way, one can be enlightened. The word śuklaḥ refers to a person in the mode of goodness. If one wants to receive spiritual knowledge, he must approach a bona fide brāhmaṇa-guru, either in the disciplic succession or in a family of learned brāhmaṇas." He's not talking about a blind caste system that has become corrupt. The bona fide brahmana-guru can be one's own father. He took initiation from Gaura Kisora das babji in 1900, who gave him the name Sri Varsabhanavi-devi-dayita Dasa. GKDB accepted Babaji-vesa from Bhagavata Dasa Babaji, a disciple of Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji Maharaja.
SBSST was the son of BVT, GKDB's chosen siksha, which by such direct associations made SBSST very enlightened and qualified, and able to deliver the proper presentation of Bhakti to the world and the results are obvious. His mission was separate from other Vaishnava Maths in order to branch out around the world to spread the teachings of Sri Chaitanya. But even so, it makes no difference whether he was formerly initiated in a current succession or in a dream (hearsay) or not. You are stuck on "chains", but what of the purity of such chains? And chains are broken throughout Vaishnava history only to be revived again by a self-illumined Vaishnava soul who can see when it's time for a "change". A chart of Vaishnava lineage can be presented for simplicity's sake, and if there are mistakes , it does not prove anything, least not impurity. SBSST's compassion for the fallen souls and love for Sri Chaitanya's mission was obvious by the example he set throughout his entire life. His position should not be questioned. I will stand by his words rather than a million upstarts who imagine in their spiritual immaturity that they know better.
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Post by niscala on Dec 13, 2014 21:44:58 GMT -5
Anadi Dasa wrote: 2. Where is it stated that The guru should determine if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas (edadas bhavas).
You already know the answer to this- you posted the quote!:"As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless."
Clearly establishing the disciple's inclinations, is the same as determining them- as the two sentences- "I clearly established that the gardener was the thief" and "I determined that the gardener was the thief" mean the same thing. Knowing that flawless instructions are dependent on determining or clearly establishing the disciple's inclinations, the guru will necessarily take this step.
Whether this happens at initiation or not depends on circumstances, but even among the traditional parivars, this is not necessarily the case, for a disciple of Ananta Dasa Babaji told us in confidence that not always his guru gives the ekadasa bhavas at initiation- only when he sees the disciple is ready (has lobha), which can be many years after initiation. Thus the bhavas may be learned from the guru at initiation, after initiation, or as stated in the sastra, the knowledge can be received from a guru in a past life, or from Krsna directly.
Bhaktisiddhanta S: Therefore the present guru asks his disciple his own inclinations: Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done. On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them.
The spiritual identity has eleven aspects (ekadāśa-bhāva). There are many cases of unscrupulous gurus who artificially force-feed these designations on unqualified practitioners, but we cannot call this the mark of spiritual perfection.
Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarüpasiddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation, and the spiritual master’s only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service. Prabhupāder Patrāvalī
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