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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 13, 2014 21:58:53 GMT -5
Who the hell are you to criticize Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati in this way? What have you proven? Nothing. You are poisoned by others who are envious. You accept some statements from the past as if they are absolute truth. You are free to do so of course, but if you spew this garbage on my forum again your post will be deleted. This is your final warning.
If you cannot acknowledge that SBSST and Srila Prabhupada were empowered by Krsna to spread this movement all over the world - however defective you may misperceive their efforts to be - then you are blocked due to your offensive attitude. That is the power of Vaisnava aparadha and you are a classic example of this. If it wasn't for SBSST and SP you wouldn't even know about Krsna in this lifetime.
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2014 0:19:15 GMT -5
Anadi: Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence)
So you believe this claim, because there is no evidence or proof it is wrong? In any court of justice, hearsay is immediately dismissed. The infamous eleven "disciples" of Srila Prabhupada all claimed they were his successors. Anyone can claim anything, plus what they have said can be passed into the chain of gossip, until "Chinese whispers" renders the end effect completely distorted.
Anadi: As a raganuga bhakti sadhaka Bhaktisiddhanta, if he were Gaurakisora Das Babaji's disciple, he should have gotten from him the uninterupted chain of gurus - guru-parampara - guru pranali - which should leed him in Caitanya lila to an associate of Sri Caitanya,
This is the next point of contention- that only through siddha pranali can one enter the lila. This has been shown not to be the case, as even in the traditional parivars, the ekadasa bhavas are not necessarily given at diksa, plus the sastra does not indicate that such a practice is necessary. But you have concluded it is necessary, though the point is still under discussion, and you have used that conclusion to trash the lineage of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 14, 2014 8:55:55 GMT -5
ANADI wrote: (quote) An inquistive person would search for the reason óf the deviation from the traditional Gaudiya lineages, or being afraid of the aparadha ghost will renounce. 1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. Based on abhava pramana (evidence based on absence of counter evidence) (unquote) ------------------- There is good reason to "be afraid of the aparadha ghost". What you call a "deviation" in your weak analysis is actually simply a "change" that was needed at a time when siddha pranali was a fad popular amongst eager opportunists in the guise of pure self-realised gurus to gain disciples, popularity, maybe even more base material acquisitions. 1. Who were these eager opportunists, that undermined the siddhanta of siddha-pranali? 2. BSS didn't present or explain this siddhanta of raganuga bhakti, to reinstate it in its pristine and original presetation, as given in the Padhatis of Gopal Guru Gosvavami, his disicple Dhyanacandra Pandit and Krishna Das Babaji and this is a deviation; 3. even more than that he consciously defamed the original path of siddha-pranaly, the only way to enter, through the mercy of guru, in raganuga sadhana. 4. He didn't follow his supposed guru, who had followed that path. 5. So one should ask himself what was the real reason behind this "simple change", a deviation, who leads some of his followers to make their own speculations about raganuga sadhana such is the case of this book of uttama-shloka.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 14, 2014 9:33:32 GMT -5
You base your contention of siddha pranali's importance on a strict "ceremony" by "traditional" lineages. I based by statements about siddha pranali on the siddhanta of the acaryas that followed the path of raganuga bhakti as given in writings before the deviations introduced by BSS, see please the quotes regarding the hearing of ekadas bhavas ( siddha-pranali) from guru: BVT says: Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure lobha hoile guru pade jijnasa udaya kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnan lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatan prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adesh ei bhave lila modhye koraha prabhesh guru rupe siddha-bhava koriya sravan sei bhava sviya cite koribe baran (Harinam cintamani) “Greed - lobha arises like a queen upon hearing Radha-Krishna’s Asta kala lila - Radha Krishna asta kala jei lila kore tahar sravane lobha hoy antahpure Because of this greed the disciple asks at the feet of his guru, - lobha hoile udaya guru pade jijnasa how is it possibile to attain such lilas, tell me, o great one? - kemone paibo lila kaha mahasaya Due to his mercy gurudeva will describe - gurudeva kripa kori koribe varnanthe principles of lila together with ekadas bhava - lila tattva ekadas bhava sangatanAs his Lord (guru) is satified with him (the disciple), he (guru) will give instructions - prasanna hoiya prabhu koribe adesh about the way he (may) enter - modhye koraha prabhesh that bhava and lila (he gave instructions about) - ei bhave lila Hearing about perfect ekadas bhava - koriya sravan siddha-bhava BVT direct about Siddha-Pranali 1. Nama (name) sri gurudeva je Manjari nama diben, sei nami sadhaker nityanama boliya janibe | brajalalanadiker modhye nama dvaraminirama boibe || (Jaiva Dharma) “The manajari name that the Guru selects is the sadhak’s eternal name which renders the sadhak-manjari “manorama” (attractiveness) among the other Braja-sundaris.” 2) Rupa (form) sadhaker ruci anusare sri gurudeva rupa jouvan sampanna ekti kishori siddharupa nirnaya koriben | acintya cinmaya rupa visistha no haile sri radhikar paricarika ke haite pare ?||(Jaiva Dharma) “According to the sadhak’s ruci the Guru will prescribe a lovely kishori siddha svarupa. Without having an inconceivably beautiful form, could anyone possibly become Radha’s dasi?” and the form of the guru (in lila, as his eternal guiding (sakhi) form) - guru rupe when that own ekadas bhava comes in his citta (consciousness) - sei bhava sviya cite This stage is called Baran-dasha - the stage of acceptance.” Sripad Dhyanacandra writes in his Paddhati: Sripad Dhyanacandra writes in his Paddhati: sakhinam sangini-rupam atmanam bhavana-mayim | ajna-seva-parakashtha-kripalankara-bhushitam | tatas ca manjari-rupan gurvadin api samsmaret || DhPad 110 “One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, decorated with the ornaments of orders, aspiration for service and mercy. Thereafter, one s hould meditate on the manjari-forms beginning with the guru.” As mentioned by Sripad Dhyanacandra, this contemplation also involves meditation on one’s siddha-pranali, or the chain of one’s gurus in their s iddha-forms. One may not directly jump into the presence of Yugala-kisora; it is imperative to approach them through one’s revered gurus, both in this world and in the siddha-realm. tatradau manjari-rupan gurvadin tu sviyan sviyan pranaly-anusarena samsmaret sri-guru-parama-guru-krameneti tatah sri-radhikam dhyayet | tatah sri-nandanandanam || DhPad 344 “In this meditation, before anything else, the practitioner should meditate on the manjari-forms of his guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika, and after that Sri Nandanandana (Krishna).” The descriptions of oneself, one’s gurus and the other manjaris are all learned from the guru. Whenever in doubt, the sadhaka ought not to venture into the realm of creative imagination, but rather consult a person acquainted with the realm of the lila. sarva-lakshana-sampanna bhava-havadi-bhushita | guru-prasada-janani guru-rupa-priyanuga || DhP 87 “Endowed with all qualities, ornamented by alluring gestures, moods and so forth, she is born of the grace of the guru, being a dear follower of guru-rupa- sakhi.” The concept of guru-rupa-sakhi, or guru in the form of a sakhi, is commonly featured in the songs and prayers of our acaryas. For example, in the Prarthana of Srila Thakura Mahasaya: kanaka katora puri, sugandhi candana buri, donhakara sri-ange dhaliba | guru-rupa-sakhi vame, tribhanga bhangima thame, camarera batasa kariba ||Prarthana 30 “With fragrant candana filling a golden jug, I anoint their beautiful limbs. Standing on the left side of guru-rupa-sakhi before the one with a three-fold bending form, I fan with a camara.” Thus, staying under the guidance of the guru both in this world and in the siddha-realm, one engages in raganuga-sadhana. The mercy and revelations of bhagavan and His parshadas descend to this world through the medium of guru-pranali the unbroken chain of gurus which leads to a nitya sakhi. The chain of gurus - guru-pranali ss in the Siddhanta-ratna of Baladeva Vidyabhushana:esha tu bhaktis tan nitya parikaraganad arabhyedanintaneshvapi tad bhakteshu mandakiniva pracarati … sa tathabhuta nitya-dhamni nitya-parshadeshu nityam cakasti surasarid iva tad bhakta-pranalya prapance ‘vatarati ||Siddhanta- ratna “This bhakti is being promulgated from the nitya-parikaras (eternal associates) of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini-river (the celestial Ganges). Bhakti is always present among the nitya-parshadas in the nitya-dhama (eternal abode), flowing to this world through the bhakta-pranali (channel of devotees) like the stream of the Mandakini.” The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for himand is blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus. A practical example of introduction to a manjari-svarupa is found in the sixth chapter of Prema-vilasa, as Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami bestows diksha-mantra to Srinivasa Acarya. radha-krishna-mantra kahe kara-yuge dhari | kama-bija sunaila anguli anusari || ei saba mantra tumi karibe smarana | yei kale tad-asraye karibe manana || guna-manjarikasraye mani-manjarika tumi | tomara yuthera vivarana kahi saba ami || upa guna rati rasa manjulamanjula | ei saba sange sangi ei anukula || seva ragatmika raga bhajanera mata | sri-rupa gosanira vakya achaye sammata ||Bhatta Gosvami spoke the Radha-Krishna mantra, holding Srinivasa’s two hands, and explained the counting of kama-bija with fingers. “You should meditate on all these mantras; at that time, contemplate on taking shelter of them. You are Mani-manjari under the shelter of Guna-manjari. I shall tell you all about your yutha (group of sakhis).Rupa, Guna, Rati, Rasa and the charming Manjula – your welfare is in being their companion. In raga- bhajana, seva is like that of the ragatmikas; this is the conclusion in Sri Rupa Gosvami’s words.”
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vishnudas
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 14, 2014 22:12:01 GMT -5
My response to Anadi's points 1. through 5.
1. Who were these eager opportunists, that undermined the siddhanta of siddha-pranali?
I wasn't there, neither were you. But SBSST knew who the siddha-pranali opportunists were. And today there are so many. 2. BSS didn't present or explain this siddhanta of raganuga bhakti, to reinstate it in its pristine and original presetation, as given in the Padhatis of Gopal Guru Gosvavami, his disicple Dhyanacandra Pandit and Krishna Das Babaji and this is a deviation;
SBSST presented exactly what was needed for time place and circumstance. It's you that is in illusion and deviating from the pristine moods of the founding acharyas of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Yours is a mood (not anywhere near bhava) of competition and fault-finding of the sampradaya acharya.
3. even more than that he consciously defamed the original path of siddha-pranaly, the only way to enter, through the mercy of guru, in raganuga sadhana.
Again you say your version of siddha pranali is the "only way". You have a right to your realization though it be quite neophyte, but you don't have the shakti or the shastric evidence to prove your position. I don't have to reiterate what devotees here have already stated about the different methods to achieve your ekadas bhavas and realization of your siddha swarupa. Or do you read what your seniors are telling you?
4. He didn't follow his supposed guru, who had followed that path.
You make no sense. If you claim "his supposed guru" then you can't also say: he didn't follow the same path. If he isn't his guru, as you are insinuating, then what is your concern then if he followed his path or not? If you remember in a past life being there at the time and witnessing it, I'm all ears.
5. So one should ask himself what was the real reason behind this "simple change", a deviation, who leads some of his followers to make their own speculations about raganuga sadhana such is the case of this book of uttama-shloka.
I'm sure you haven't even read his book, which is comprised of the conclusions of all our acharyas on Raganuga. I think you should be blocked from this forum at this point. Your mission seems to be only to offend Vaisnavas. Your words, "a deviation", and you are up against SBSST's mission which has flooded the world with Gaudiya Vaishnavism and Krishna Consciousness. What has your parivar done to make people aware of even the basics, that they aren't the body, or the false ego that needs to be smashed first before they can claim they are advanced enough to even get a glimpse of their swarupa. Ask yourself where you are on the Raganuga path, why are you so obsessed with others?
First understand the differences, of the bhajananandis, and the gosthyanandis. Both are bonafide so you cannot exclude one or the other or take imaginary sides. They should respect one another for the particular roles they play. One benefits the individual, the other benefits the masses. This dualism is a kali yuga device implanted in the minds of kanishtas, which otherwise wouldn't be there. It's an immature state of the false ego seeking victory in a spiritual competition. Your quotes are not enough to prove a mandatory continuance of pranali by an enforced ekadas bhava system. (the Ekadas bhavas is bonafide of course, it just can't be enforced by others, which you are promoting) SBSST's mission was meant for the gosthyanandi. You can find so many babas that say they know their swarupa and can reveal yours to you. This is what SBSST was warning us about. He had no other reason for doing so, but to protect the future influx of Vaishnavas he knew would continue to multiply.
There is need for some self-retrospection here. Look back into your life and see if you have a conditioning, and many do, to excel above the others, to fear shame, the need to always be right etc.. there is also a thing called FAS - False Authority Syndrome. There is an overload of that found in religious / political / spiritual groups. I and others I know have listened to the statistics, over many years, and they look very dismal for the so-called siddha pranali advocates. The big majority of disciples are still in bhajana kriya or anartha nivriti, but due to over-enthusiasm appear ready to the guru, only later to become frustrated after being told their ekadas bhavas, siddha deha etc. because they still struggle with their identities, what to speak of hidden attachments to the things of this material world; they become complacent and develop even worse qualities which mirror their frustration. The spiritual joy or wisdom you would expect from such great advancement was not to be seen. Of course there are exceptions, but they knew their nitya swarupa before the guru told them. The guru only confirmed it, and yes believe it or not, sometimes it CAN be revealed by chaitya guru, in the heart. All the mundane bad habits like lust, anger, greed, desire for admiration, position, fame, disciples...the list goes on, can rise again in the disciple who was not ready. This is another reason this version of your siddha pranali should not be taught. So you are dead wrong to say SBSST left it open to speculation. He knew exactly what was the right way to present Raganuga bhakti to the world, and how to teach it on an individual basis also. Speculation, either by the disciple or the siddha-pranali guru himself, or both, is the real danger. Are you that good of a judge of the character and qualifications of the guru? Sincerely wish you the best!
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2014 23:24:44 GMT -5
Anadi has given the relevant evidence for the validity of receiving one's ekadasa bhavas through the mercy of the guru pranali, but he has failed to establish that this is the only method of receiving knowledge of the ekadasa bhavas, so his criticism is unfounded. Furthermore, this extract from Padma Purana proves otherwise. It also indicates that the swarupa is manifested at a certain point in time (contradicting the opinion of many that it is there in the spiritual world right now, waiting for us to inhabit it):
Padma Purana - Patala Kandha: "Ashokamalini to Narada: You had desired to see the girl who would become the consort of Lord Krishna. Please listen now as I describe to you how it came to be that various fortunate souls were born in the land of Vraja, as daughters of the cowherd men.There was a sage known as Chandraprabha, who had a charming son named Chitradhvaja. This boy was a great devotee of Lord Krsna from childhood. One day, the boy went to Lord Vishnu's temple. While there, he thought as follows: "How shall I worship Lord Krsna, who fascinates the cowherd girls of Vrindavana? Indeed, the Lord is always engaged in pastimes with them, in the forest and by the side of the River Yamuna." That night, the boy had a dream. He saw before him the beautiful form of Lord Krsna. It was a Deity made of stone, and was placed upon a golden throne. The Lord was standing in His charming three fold bending posture, and He was playing His flute. On His two sides, the Lord was being served by two of the best of gopis. Indeed, infatuated with love, the gopis were embracing and kissing their Lord. Lord Krsna then said to the gopi on His right, "Lotus-eyed one, you will manifest a wonderful female form, who is very bashful in behavior. Touched by the lustre of your body, that form will resemble yours. That gopi then approached Chitradhvaja, so that the lustre of her body filled his body. From the lustre of her breasts, two stout breasts were produced. From the lustre of her hips, charming round hips became manifested. In this way, a female form came into being, decorated with garlands and ornaments. It was as if from one lamp, another lamp was lit. The gopi took that girl's hand and led her to Govinda's side, saying, "My Lord, this is Your female servant. Kindly tell her what service she should perform.The gopi then named her Chitrakala and instructed, "Always stay near the Lord and sing in accompaniment to His flute. Chitrakala touched the lotus feet of the Lord, taking the dust and placing it upon her head. She then began to sing, giving pleasure to Lord Krsna and the gopis. The Lord then lovingly embraced her. At this point in the dream, Chitradhvaja woke up. Remembering his dream and the sweetness of Lord Krsna, he wept. From that time on, being determined to think of Krsna only, he gave up all material enjoyment and remained silent, even when addressed by his father. In this way, he remained at home for one month. After that, he went to the forest and practiced austerities that were difficult to perform. Some time later on, he gave up his material body and was then born as Chitrakala, the daughter of the cowherd, Viragupta."
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2014 23:35:53 GMT -5
In his Sāraṅga Raṅgadā-ṭīkā to Kṛṣṇa Karṇāmṛta (3), Śrīla Kṛṣṇadās Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, rāgānugā mārge anutpanna rati sādhaka bhaktair api svepsita siddha dehaṁ manasi parikalpya - "On the rāgānugā-path even a sādhaka bhakta who has no rati yet can think of his own desired siddha deha." Then he continues: jāta ratīnāṁ tu svayam eva tad deha sphūrteḥ. “When rati arises, then that body will be AUTOMATICALLY revealed." No mention of Siddha Pranali.
Commentray by unknown author: The word parikalpya is most significant in this verse and it means everything for the devotees who do not undergo siddha pranali diksa. Parikalpya means to design, manufacture or create. This means a raganugiya sadhaka with greed for vraj bhakti in the mood of the damsels of vraj may create and devise HIS OWN siddha deha, without having received it via pranali system.
Could any sanskrit scholar here verify this assertion - that "parikalpya" means this?
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2014 23:45:00 GMT -5
I just looked up several sanskrit dictionaries and it means specificly "to be calulated" with the word it seems to be derived from meaning "making, forming, assuming, inventing etc. Source: sanskritdictionary.com/?q=parikaThe original sanskrit text from Krsna Karmamrta is as follows: rati sadhaka bhaktair api svepsita siddha deham manasi parikalpya...
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vishnudas
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BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 15, 2014 1:52:34 GMT -5
Anadi, your fault-finding of the list of sampradaya acharyas is childish and suspect of offense. Read from SBVT's Jaiva-dharma: "Is there a list of names of spiritual masters in the parampara given without any breaks?" The answer: "From time to time, only the more important spiritual masters names are included in these lists." (Jaiva-dharma, Ch. 13).
We should not be concerned with these gaps in the disciplic succession.. "Regarding parampara system, there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. We have to pick up the prominent acarya and follow from him." (Srila Prabhupada Letter to Dayananda, December 4, 1968)
In this sense there really is no broken chain as you imply, the pure vani handed down is even more available than ever before, to everyone. Don't wait to get a lightning zap on your head from your pranali, you yourself have to earn it. This is very important to understand: YOU must qualify yourself by your sadhana and lobha, not depend on someone else to qualify YOU.
Anadi, I noticed you have your own purports after the quotes you give ie: “With fragrant candana filling a golden jug, I anoint their beautiful limbs. Standing on the left side of guru-rupa-sakhi before the one with a three-fold bending form, I fan with a camara.”
Your commentary: "Thus, staying under the guidance of the guru both in this world and in the siddha-realm, one engages in raganuga-sadhana. The mercy and revelations of bhagavan and His parshadas descend to this world through the medium of guru-pranali the unbroken chain of gurus which leads to a nitya sakhi."
Your commentary really threw me off, I had to read the verse again to see what I missed. Oh, I didn't miss anything! You were just trying to make your own point to prove your position on siddha pranali, which was entirely unrelated to the verse. You seem to do that a bit. But there is nothing wrong with desiring to be with your guru in the siddha realm, that's very admirable, but it isn't some mandatory written-in-stone GV protocol.
So, can you actually prove a direct siddha pranali line in your parivar going back to Mahaprabhu? That would be interesting to find out. But even if you can, we either take SBSS's advice ("no siddha pranali" because of the risks involved in Kali yuga) or we find a babaji who claims to be in a "direct" line and serve him to hopefully find out who we are in lila, and he may be right, but what if he's wrong? Who can be the judge if he's a charlatan or a great saint? It comes down to each sadhaka's abilities in character assessment and research, but that takes some real internal fortitude. And still, doubts and mistakes could arise in these situations. There is no room for any doubt when it comes to knowing our personal nitya swarupa, is there!
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vishnudas
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BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 15, 2014 15:10:37 GMT -5
Anadi has given the relevant evidence for the validity of receiving one's ekadasa bhavas through the mercy of the guru pranali, but he has failed to establish that this is the only method of receiving knowledge of the ekadasa bhavas, so his criticism is unfounded. Yes he has given some relevant quotes, but we must keep in mind that his "interpretation" of siddha pranali which has become the popular norm today is the same mood that SBSST was against. The fast-food style of giving out the highest sampatti-dasa level of Raganuga to young sadhakas who aren't qualified(and possibly by gurus who are unqualified), are the dangers SBSST foresaw. Anadi says his siddha pranali takes the guesswork out of it, and no need for speculation, which to me makes it very simplistic and lazy sounding, like fast-food raganuga. But you are right, he overlooks all the other quotes of acharyas, which out-number siddha pranali inferences, that verify a variety of bonafide methods of realizing out nitya identities.
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vishnudas
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BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on Dec 16, 2014 0:57:52 GMT -5
from Bhakti-sandarbha : "Though there are many kinds of bhuta-suddhi, its ultimate form is to think of oneself in a body suitable for serving the Lord in accordance with one's wishes. This is the practice that those who desire only service to the Lord should engage in. Thus, in whatever particular form or situation they think of their ista-devata, they should identify themselves as a corresponding associate of the Lord present in the same place." "IN ACCORDANCE WITH ONE'S WISHES" I can see a scenario where an advanced sisya asks his siddha-pranali guru to please tell him his ekadas-bhavas, and the guru senses his sisya is ready. All the time through years of dedicated service and nam-japa, nam-kirtan, and lila-smaranam, the sadhaka has actually developed his own personal bhavas, the stage of bhavapana dasa, which he cannot deny himself and his attraction is leaning strongly toward Vrinda devi's yutha. Then the guru says you are in Visakha's yutha, Your name is ___ manjari, you wear this color sari, you live in this area of Vrindavan etc... The sisya says "but my dear prabhu, I have for so long grown an attachment for Vrindadevi's yutha, what should I do?" And what can the guru do but allow him his desired position, or scold him and say NO, you are who I tell you who you are! The problem here is this: According to their system the siddha-pranali guru is supposed to already know by channeling samasti-guru, then the guru and samasti-guru talk to Krishna directly and Krishna picks one swarupa out of a ga-zillion swarupas for the disciple of the guru. They believe this, and that it's Krishna directly sending down the line what this particular sisya's eternal ekadas bhavas are... So they think this is when siddha deha is "given". The disciple then believes that "I am this particular manjari". manjaris only please. period.
You can see how this process is flawed.
I've read that Jiva Gosvami explains that all siddha-dehas are eternally existing, along with their siddha-nama and siddha-bhava. There are the eternally active ones , then there are the inactive siddha-dehas which are dormant and not yet realized by the sadhakas. In other words our siddha deha is not anywhere else but with us, always, just not fully realized yet. The bonafide scenario of guru/disciple relationship is: The Guru is there to guide as the sishya inquires more and more out of his lobha to know the finer details, to understand his bhavas, to solidify his personal desires and realizations about his siddha-deha. Then, the guru explains ekadas-bhavas in technical terms, but then in a heart to heart effort on both sides to confirm what chaitya guru in the heart is revealing to the sishya, the truth becomes manifest from such pure sadhu sanga. This is the real Law of Attraction. Sri Radhika wants us, by our love and lobha, to know our personal eternal heart's attraction by "personal revelation", not to be "told" or "assigned" what our eternal attraction is. ...which would not be compatible with Raganugabhakti.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 16, 2014 3:57:56 GMT -5
In Jaiva-dharma, BVT provides us with an example of how this process unfolds:
Vrajanatha: Which type of rāgānugā-bhakti do we have the adhikāra (qualification) to adopt?
Bābājī: My son, you should scrutinize your own svabhāva (the true nature of a thing which forms an essential part of its composition), and then you will see the corresponding type of devotion for which you are qualified. A particular ruci (taste) will awaken according to your inherent svabhāva, and you should pursue the rasa that is indicated by that ruci. In order to cultivate that rasa, you should follow one of Kṛṣṇa’s eternal associates who is perfect in it.
To determine rasa, it is only necessary to examine your own ruci. If your ruci is towards the path of rāga, then you should act according to that ruci; and as long as an inclination has not awakened for the path of rāga, you should simply execute the principles of vaidhī-bhakti with firm faith.
Vijaya: Prabhu, I have been studying Śrīmad-bhāgavatam for a long time, and I listen to kṛṣṇa-līlā whenever and wherever I find the opportunity. Whenever I deliberate on kṛṣṇa-līlā, a strong bhāva arises within my heart to serve the Divine Couple as Lalitā-devī does.
Bābājī: You need not say any more. You are a mañjarī (young maidservant) of Lalitā-devī.
…When Vrajanatha saw Vijaya Kumara’s spiritual wealth, he folded his hands and humbly said, “My master, whenever I meditate on Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes, a desire arises in my heart to serve Him by following in the footsteps of Subala.”
Bābājī: Which service do you like?
Vrajanatha: When the calves wander far off to graze, I would very much like to bring them back in the company of Subala. When Kṛṣṇa sits in a place to play upon His flute, I will take the permission of Subala to let the cows drink water, and then I will bring them to Bhai (Brother) Kṛṣṇa. This is my heart’s desire.
Bābājī: I give you the benediction that you will attain Kṛṣṇa’s service as a follower of Subala. You are eligible to cultivate the sentiment of friendship (sakhya-rasa). JD, Chapter 21, Pages 514-515
Why didn’t Babaji tell Vrajanatha he was a manjari too and try to talk him into entering madhurya-rasa instead of sakhya-rasa? Why didn’t Babaji tell Vijaya-kumara he was a manjari instead of asking him about his desires? Why didn’t he tell them both about the siddha-pranali of their lineage if it was so important and mandatory?
In Harināma-cintāmaṇi, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in his commentary in Chapter 15:
When the spiritual master is ascertaining the aspirant’s pure personal inclinations, the aspirant should also help the spiritual master by speaking his mind about his own preferences. As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless.
The inclinations that have been shaped by one’s meritorious deeds, through both this and previous lives, are called ruci or taste. This particular inclination, however, is integral to the soul. Should a person not have a natural inclination for śṛṅgāra-rasa, (mādhurya-rasa) but for servitude or friendship, then he should be instructed accordingly; if not, there will be undesirable consequences. HNC, 15-73-74
There is no mention of learning about the siddha-pranali of one’s lineage as a mandatory part of the process. I recently asked a disciple of Lalita Prasada Thakura how LPT approached this process, having received diksa from his father, BVT. I was told that if the disciple had specific inclinations already manifesting within, LPT accepted those preferences of the disciple and they would collaboratively refine them if necessary. There was no imposition.
According to BRS, one’s inclinations towards a certain rasa evolve over many lifetimes of samskaras. There is no mention of the guru telling the disciple who they are and what their personal details are. The guru teaches the theory and guides the disciple as these details are revealed to him in due course of time. That is the meaning of self-realization.
Here are some extracts from Bhakti Vikasa Swami's book about the life of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:
"He gave thirteen babaji initiation. Jotisekhara recalls some of their names: Bhaktisvarupa Puri Goswami; Tirtha Goswami; Bhaktisaranga Maharaja, etc. They were so absorbed in bhajan that even when it was time for eating they were unaware.
Sarasvati Thakura gave trija (third birth), or manjari-svarupa (siddha- svarupa), to thirteen of his disciples; not all at once, but at different times, according to the rules given in Sat-Kriya-Sara-Dipika - a book by Gopal Bhatta Goswami, which describes the different rituals for Vaishnava rites. Their samadhis were also made according to Sat-Kriya-Sara-Dipika. Some of the samadhis are at Mayapur, and some at the Radha Damodar temple in Vrndavan.
Some were grhasthas and some were tyagis. Since that time, in our line (Sarasvati Thakura's line), no one has given this trija.
One interesting point is that Sarasvati Thakura gave babaji initiation even though he externally kept himself in the position of a sannyasi in the varnasrama system. Traditionally a sannyasi cannot give babaji initiation, as a babaji is considered above a sannyasi, above varna and asrama. Becoming a babaji means initiation into the life of a paramahamsa.
However, Sarasvati Thakura could do this, because although externally he played the role of a sannyasi, he was an actual paramahamsa, enabling him to give paramahamsa babaji initiation also. Those who became babajis gave up their brahmana thread and didn't strictly follow all the rules and regulations of the sastras, governing behavior according to varna and asrama.
He warned his babaji disciples not to tell their manjari svarupa to others. They would stay in the Mathas, in the three dhamas of Vrndavan, Navadvip, and Puri, and attend all the temple functions, such as lectures and kirtanas, but they themselves would not give lectures in the temple.
They would go for bhiksa (begging for alms) and go outside for nagar sankirtan. They wouldn't go for preaching and most of their time would be spent in bhajan. Sometimes they would help with the Deity worship, or arcana. One babaji, named Radha Govinda Brijabasi, the father of Ananta Vasudeva, it would seem he lived in the Math in Vrndavan and Puri.”
Thus it is clear that SBSST did not “change” this process. He just kept it in the background and only taught these details to those he deemed qualified. SP didn’t teach it because none of his disciples were ready and he wasn’t finished his primary translation work, ie: Srimad-bhagavatam.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 16:23:38 GMT -5
You already know the answer to this- you posted the quote!:"As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless." You should read carefully to see if when BVT writtes about disciple’s inclinations, he refers to inclinations - to a certain ruci for a certain rasa or - to realizations about these edadas bhavas, as long as BVT writes that the guru is the one that reveals the ekadas bhavas to his disciple, see the quotes given before.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 16:31:42 GMT -5
...Whether this happens at initiation or not depends on circumstances, but even among the traditional parivars, this is not necessarily the case, for a disciple of Ananta Dasa Babaji told us in confidence that not always his guru gives the ekadasa bhavas at initiation- only when he sees the disciple is ready ( has lobha), which can be many years after initiation. Thus the bhavas may be learned from the guru at initiation, after initiation, or as stated in the sastra, the knowledge can be received from a guru in a past life, or from Krsna directly. This commentary does not uphold the idea that the guru determins if the disciple has had any realizations about these bhavas (edadas bhavas). PS Here you write about the mantra initiation, as the ekadas bhavas would be not an initiation, even if sometimes they may take place simultaneously.
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anadi
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Post by anadi on Dec 16, 2014 16:49:11 GMT -5
Bhaktisiddhanta S: Therefore the present guru asks his disciple his own inclinations: The disciple’s inclinations should be asked by guru because according to BVT only if he knows his disciples inclinations his revealing of the ekadas bhavas and all subsquent guidance will be flawless.
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