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Post by madhavalata on Jun 24, 2015 4:08:35 GMT -5
This is the sloka I am referring to :
Sri Garga Samhita Canto 1.5.3
kascid divya adivyas ca tatha tri-guna-vrttayah bhumi gopyo bhavisyanti punyair nana-vidhaih krtaih
Translation : Because of various kinds of pious activities, some women from the heavenly planets, some women not from the heavenly planets and some women acting in the three modes will become gopis on the earth.
So, I did not personally add or change anything from the translation of HG Kusakratha Prabhu. Sorry, if I gave reference chapter N. 4 but I had it on my notes, so I went to look again in the book to have it right. It was Ch.5. Anyway Ch. 4 it is all about who where the women who took birth as gopis during the pastimes of Krishna on the planet and how the benediction was given to them. These descriptions continues also in the next chapter No 5. What is most amazing is that they were almost all women also in their previous appearance. Anyhow now the question has one more aspect to be added : the pious activities is the only qualification in this sloka.
Thanks, YS Hare Krishna
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 24, 2015 10:41:58 GMT -5
I wasn't implying that you had done anything to the translation, but now that I know it is Kusakratha's work that gives me some insight. In general, I prefer not to use his translations, but that's another issue. The Garga-samhita is not a core Vaisnava text that would supersede anything written by the acaryas, whose teachings will always be considered in line with Lord Caitanya's teachings. Pious activities generally refers to sukriti accumulated over many lifetimes which eventually becomes the basis for one attaining the association of devotees. From that association one gets the seed of bhakti and becomes engaged in sadhana-bhakti, which leads to bhava-bhakti and then prema-bhakti. That is the process given by Lord Caitanya and the one Gaudiya Vaisnavas follow. One does not directly become a gopi simply by pious activities. Not according to Lord Caitanya and His acaryas.
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lal
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Post by lal on Jun 24, 2015 14:05:52 GMT -5
This is the sloka I am referring to : Sri Garga Samhita Canto 1.5.3 kascid divya adivyas ca tatha tri-guna-vrttayah bhumi gopyo bhavisyanti punyair nana-vidhaih krtaih Translation : Because of various kinds of pious activities, some women from the heavenly planets, some women not from the heavenly planets and some women acting in the three modes will become gopis on the earth. So, I did not personally add or change anything from the translation of HG Kusakratha Prabhu. Sorry, if I gave reference chapter N. 4 but I had it on my notes, so I went to look again in the book to have it right. It was Ch.5. Anyway Ch. 4 it is all about who where the women who took birth as gopis during the pastimes of Krishna on the planet and how the benediction was given to them. These descriptions continues also in the next chapter No 5. What is most amazing is that they were almost all women also in their previous appearance. Anyhow now the question has one more aspect to be added : the pious activities is the only qualification in this sloka. Thanks, YS Hare Krishna You didn't mistranslate, you just left out the part that speaks to the qualifications. Punya does not just mean pious activities as in giving a donation to a sadhu or a temple, it can mean any meritorious or sacred act. That includes sadhana. The phrase nana-vidhaih means many or various forms or types of sacred or holy acts, but because of it's relation to vidhi it also implies in a regulated or constant sense. In other words, the punya that is implied is of a regulated and constant manner of various types, i.e. it speaks to sadhana. We should understand that this verse is in the context of a generalization on types of people who attain lila, and is not meant as a detailed discourse or final word on attaining lila, as if simply by doing some pious act you can attain the highest realm. It needs to be taken within the context of the system it is a part of, which gives no substitute to the attainment of liberation through sadhana. As to most of the examples being women, that should come as no surprise since it is easier for a women to develop madhurya-bhava for Krishna during sadhana then it is for a man. And that is one of the qualifications for entering into lila as a gopi. Although the process is aimed at men as well, it is just easier for women since women are usually more naturally inclined to madhurya-bhava. Still, that is not the true qualification, it is an adjunct. The real qualification is becoming free from the modes, free from anarthas, and the development of knowledge and realization enabling self-realization. The development of the sentiment of madhurya-bhava (attraction to Krishna as a girl) is also a qualification, but for a heterosexual man that needs a change of inner identity, and is not the purpose of bhakti yoga - it is necessary at a certain stage, but it is an adjunct to the sadhana which for a male sadhaka is done at the higher stage after attaining bhava, by Krishna directly.
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Post by rishi on Jun 24, 2015 19:23:38 GMT -5
lal said:
"As to most of the examples being women, that should come as no surprise since it is easier for a women to develop madhurya-bhava for Krishna during sadhana then it is for a man. And that is one of the qualifications for entering into lila as a gopi. Although the process is aimed at men as well, it is just easier for women since women are usually more naturally inclined to madhurya-bhava."
Do you have any references for this? I have never heard it before.
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 24, 2015 20:57:26 GMT -5
Same here. I'm ready to be convinced via guru, sadhu and sastra.
"Any jiva can acquire the right to become a vraja-vasini when impelled by his innate svabhava and the resolute cultivation of the pertinent abhimana. Only those who possess such an unwavering desire for madhurya-rasa are eligible to become vraja-vasinis. When a person's sadhana complements his ruci, he attains perfection accordingly." Jaiva Dharma 32: Madhurya-rasa, Part Two
From the Hare Krishna Explosion:
Someone suggests that perhaps it is easier for girls to surrender to a male God.
"That is a material consideration," Swamiji says, "because the soul is neither male nor female. All-attractive means that Krishna attracts all. But Krishna is always the male, the enjoyer, and in respect to Him, the jiva-atma, or individual soul, is always female, the enjoyed. When the female attempts to imitate the male, the result is topsy-turvy, is it not?"
And from Cc Adi lila introduction:
"Our consciousness at the time of death determines our next life. That is one reason why the Vedic scriptures stress the chastity of women: If a woman is very much attached to her husband, at the time of death she will think of him, and in the next life she will be promoted to a man's body. Generally a man's life is better than a woman's because a man usually has better facilities for understanding the spiritual science."
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lal
Junior Member
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Post by lal on Jun 25, 2015 5:41:59 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to bhakti in general, I was referring to madhurya-bhava in raganuga-sadhana. Point being - that sadhana is about internal identification as a girlfriend of Krishna, that comes naturally for a woman. IMHO, that is the reason for manjari-bhava doctrine - it gives male sadhakas a type of raganuga sadhana wherein they don't need to be attracted to Krishna as a girlfriend.
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 25, 2015 7:18:25 GMT -5
Hare Krsna lal, Thanks for your reply. I still have a couple of questions on the initial point and the further points that you have raised. So, just to be clear, and that I understand you correctly: If we follow your line of reasoning, then shouldn't that also mean that male bodied sadhakas have a 'natural internal identification' to be a cowherd boyfriend of Krishna's? In the same way that you say that female-bodied have a 'natural internal identification' as a girlfriend? That seems to be your logic, if I have it correct. Or is it that only the female-bodied have this 'natural internal identification' that is intimately connected with their external material form? Are you also saying that, for the male-bodied, the desire to serve Radha and Krsna as a manjari only becomes apparent due to being a 'more acceptable' option for the male-bodied, than that of serving in the mood of girlfriend? Sort of a negative motivation, 'better available option' only? And you're saying that this is the only reason that the desire to serve Krsna as a manjari ever manifests in the male-bodied? Have I got that correct? It sounds like you're saying that the only reason a male-bodied sadhaka would ever develop/ cultivate/ manifest the mood of a manjari would be due to wanting to to 'avoid' serving Krsna as His 'girlfriend.' I have never heard this before. Is this in sastra? I think I understand the points you are trying to make as well as your explanations. Please correct me if I am wrong. I was just wondering if you had any reference from the acaryas in support of your points of view and explanations. You didn't supply any yet. I still haven't read anywhere that states that it 'comes naturally' for women to be internally identifying as girlfriends of Krsna, or that is easier to cultivate madhurya rasa via female body. And now, I cannot recall it stated anywhere that the reason a male-bodied sadhaka manifests the desire to serve as a manjari only comes due to 'not wanting to be a girlfriend of Krsna's.' So, again, I am more than happy to be convinced of your point of view and explanations, and would like to hear on what basis you make these kinds of statements. I am definitely ready to be convinced of your points. Your servant, Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 25, 2015 8:59:34 GMT -5
Here's something else on the topic:
"Since the nitya-siddhas are either male or female, the sadhakas take on a mood and gender corresponding to the particular nitya-siddha of whom they take shelter."
Vrajanatha, "How may those devotees, who in this world possess a male body, serve Sri Krsna with the mood of the vraja-gopis?"
Raghunatha dasa Babaji, "Those pure devotees who have entered raganuga sadhana-bhakti in madhurya-rasa, the conjugal mellow, may have an male external body here upon earth, however, internally they possess a spiritual female form in the transcendental realm. They take shelter of a particular vraja-gopi of their choice and according to their individual predisposition follow and serve Sri Krsna in their innate spiritual identity as female attendants. The Padma Purana narrates an incident in corroboration of this concept. Attracted by His exquisite beauty, the great sages of the Dandakaranya Forest desired to have Sri Rama as their husband and took this aspiration as their internal meditation. Later, when Sri Krsna manifested His pastimes in Gokula, these sages were born in female bodies and entered the pastimes as gopis, steeped in madhurya-bhava, conjugal mood." Jaiva Dharma, Part Nine: Abhidheya: Raganuga-sadhana-bhakti, the Cultivation of Spontaneous Devotional Service
And here:
"Because of the power of maya, a soul residing in the material world imagines that she is male. In the understanding of pure spirit, Krsna is the only male and all others are female. In spirit, there is no sign of material male or female. If one intently meditates on this rasa, one can become qualified to become a gopi in Vraja. A person who yearns to attain madhurya-rasa will become qualified to become a gopi in Vraja. By repeatedly desiring in this way, one attains that perfection." Jaiva Dharma Chapter 32
And again:
Gosvami, "The jiva thinks of himself or herself as male or female only by the influence of the maya-sakti. In the realm of spiritual nature, except for Krsna's eternal male associates, the inherent spiritual nature of all jivas is female. In the transcendental nature, the material features that distinguish the different sexes of this world do not exist. Any jiva can acquire the right to become a vraja-vasini when impelled by his innate svabhava and the resolute cultivation of the pertinent abhimana. Only those who possess such an unwavering desire for madhurya-rasa are eligible to become vraja-vasinis. When a person's sadhana complements his ruci, he attains perfection accordingly. JDH 32: Madhurya-rasa, Part Two
There's no mention that it is easier for female to cultivate madhurya rasa in these discussions in Jaiva Dharma, as far as I could see.
From SBSST:
"The living entities develop their spiritual bodies based on their particular moods. Those who worship Krsna in the mellow of conjugal love develop female bodies to serve as Krsna's lovers, whereas those who serve the Lord as servants of the Lord's friends attain male bodies. In the eternally pure spiritual body there is no difference between male and female. The maleness or femaleness of the body simply reflects a devotee's internal mood." Amrta Vani
From Sanatana Goswami:
"Even in modern times, and even among men, there are great devotees who are known to have attained pure love for Krsna in the mood of the gopis. No one should doubt this, thinking that for male devotees the mood of the gopis is incompatible." BB 3.7.151
I would also say that if a male-bodied jiva is consciously cultivating, or attracted to a relationship with Radha and Krsna as a manjari merely on the basis of them, 'not needing to be attracted to Krsna as a girlfriend,' then he is not really properly practicing bhakti yoga. As Srila Prabhupada states, it is a process of purification, uncovering and discovery. It is not a negative process, but a natural positive awakening of the soul:
"So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve Krsna." Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.33 -- Vrndavana, November 12, 1972
"Pure love for Krsna elicits the most sublime and lofty emotions of the soul. Liberation or spiritual perfection implies not the absence of cognition or emotion, but their ultimate perfection. Within the soul are profound transcendental emotions, which lie dormant as long as the soul sleeps in maya, material illusion. But such sublime emotions awaken with the awakening of pure, spiritual consciousness. The entire range of emotions experienced by a conditioned soul (such as happiness and misery, love and hate, compassion and envy) are merely dim and perverted reflections of their spiritual counterparts, which exist in absolute purity and are experienced by fully realized souls in their eternal relationship with the Lord. When the soul has awakened to pure love of Krsna, he tastes the infinitely sweet flavors of a wide variety of transcendental emotions, emotions that are variegated manifestations of spiritual ecstasy." NAM: Introduction
Any comments or clarifications on these points by any of the forum devotees are welcomed.
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lal
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Post by lal on Jun 25, 2015 17:22:39 GMT -5
Vraja, you are extrapolating a little bit from what I meant. What I meant when I said for women madhurya-bhava in raganuga-sadhana comes more naturally, more so than for a male, that is simply common sense since most men are heterosexual and madhurya-bhava in raganuga-sadhana is not natural for a heterosexual male. Raganuga-sadhana in madhurya-bhava is about inner identification as a girl, therefore jivas who are heterosexual females and then take up raganuga-sadhana have less of a transformation to go through in their sadhana. That should be seen as a self-evident truth, and I meant nothing more than that.
As for what I said about manjari-bhava, I believe it was created for the reason I stated, as I said, that is simply my opinion, i.e. since heterosexual men are not attracted to conjugal rasa with a male, therefore manjari-bhava was created in order to ease that transition. Manjari-bhava is taught as where the manjari is not attracted to conjugal union with Krishna, while being attracted to closeness with Radha. That type of presentation of madhurya-bhava sadhana will be more attractive to heterosexual men, and eventually they transform into sakhis when they attain bhava by Krishna's arrangement. IMHO manjari-bhava is designated a sancari-bhava (transitory state) instead of a sthayi-bhava by Jiva Goswami for this very reason. Madhurya or Sringara is the sthayi-bhava - but until ready for the full expression of the madhurya bhava nature, the male sadhakas may need to go through the manjari-bhava transitory stage in their sadhana.
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 25, 2015 18:47:26 GMT -5
Hare Krsna lal prabhu,
Okay, I think I understand what you're saying. But I was just wondering if you have found any references from the acaryas to support these views:
1. That madhurya bhava for women comes more naturally than for males, therefore they have 'less transformation to go through,' and
2. Manjari bhava was created to ease the transition for a heterosexual male, and that then now you say that,
3. Eventually those males will transform into sakhis.
These are interesting points you raise and I am just looking for confirmation of your views, somewhere in sastra.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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lal
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Post by lal on Jun 25, 2015 19:33:36 GMT -5
Hare Krsna lal prabhu, Okay, I think I understand what you're saying. But I was just wondering if you have found any references from the acaryas to support these views: 1. That madhurya bhava for women comes more naturally than for males, therefore they have 'less transformation to go through,' and 2. Manjari bhava was created to ease the transition for a heterosexual male, and that then now you say that, 3. Eventually those males will transform into sakhis. These are interesting points you raise and I am just looking for confirmation of your views, somewhere in sastra. Your servant, Vraja Vilasa dasa I don't think there is more I can say, the first one is just common sense; the second and third are just one point not two - and as I said, it is just my opinion.
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 25, 2015 19:45:24 GMT -5
Hare Krsna lal,
Okay, thanks.
It just seems that you would need some philosophy to back up by your opinions, otherwise your opinions really go against the siddhanta, particularly this point:
"That manjari bhava was created to ease the transition for a heterosexual male and that eventually those males will transform into sakhis."
I have never read this anywhere in any sastra. Is there an example of a manjari giving up that position and becoming a gopi, either in sadhana or as siddha?
Now, if you can find anything, that would help your cause.
I am not disagreeing for the sake of it, but I have yet to hear of this philosophy. Is this something that Jiva Goswami mentions somewhere (or any acarya). I am wondering on what basis you formed your opinion? Something you read, heard, etc. I am not really widely read, so am not sure what to make of your opinion here.
Ys,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 25, 2015 21:49:28 GMT -5
Lal and Vraja:
We're getting off on a tangent from the original intention of this thread, so let's not discuss this topic further here. A new thread can be started to continue this discussion if anyone is inclined.
I'll make a few closing statements on this side topic, and then let's keep focused on the jiva fall issue.
This is common sense on a purely mundane level. But it's not taking into account that someone who has developed a genuine and strong attraction for sakhi-bhava has come to that point after many lifetimes of impressions, according to Jiva Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. So from a purely mundane psychological point of view there is a valid basis for your point, but the multi-lifetime developmental factor is also very strong, so a transition like that is not necessarily as difficult as it might seem from an external point of view.
There is absolutely no support for these notions in any of the books of the acaryas. In Ujjvala-nilamani no such indications are there. Not even remotely close. Nitya-sakhi manjaris and prana-sakhi manjaris in Radha's group are all nitya-siddhas.
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lal
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Post by lal on Jun 25, 2015 22:02:07 GMT -5
Vraja. I can ask the same question about the way that manjari-bhava is commonly taught today. There is no justification from shastra or the founding acharyas for the idea of manjari-bhava as a sthayi-bhava where the manjari is permanently focused on serving Radha over Krishna. That conception is widely taught today but not found earlier in the history of the sampradaya (where that idea is taught as a transitory or passing state). That is the conception I am speaking to.
That idea where manjari-bhava (not manjaris themselves as defined in the early works) means primarily to be interested in Radha's service where even if Krishna tries to seduce them they reject that, etc. My own realization is what I have given on that specific conception of manjari bhava - that while the widely held view of manjari-bhava isn't in the teachings of Mahaprabhu or the founding acharyas, it did come into wide usage more recently, and the reason for that (since everything is the will of Krishna) is to give heterosexual males who are interested in raganuga bhakti a path they can enter to practice raganuga-sadhana if they are too inhibited by the conception of transforming into a girl, due to their heterosexual nature. They don't need to feel unqualified to begin raganuga-sadhana if they lack attraction to a another male in madhurya bhava since the focus on the new form of manjari-bhava is on serving Radha.
Take that as you will, like I said, it is just my opinion based on my own realization that it is only to aid enterance into raganuga sadhana in madhurya-bhava for those people who need it, and they will eventually change and become attracted to Krishna in madhurya-bhava by Krishna's arrangement. At bhava-bhakti all the more intimate truths about your sthayi-bhava are revealed.
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 25, 2015 22:19:51 GMT -5
I think Uttamasloka prabhu's post sums it all up. I see no need to start a new thread on this.
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