|
Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 5, 2014 2:39:04 GMT -5
It’s been a few months since I’ve posted anything to this thread. Here's some more evidence in support of my original post.
In Laghu-bhagavatamrita, 5.234, Rupa Gosvami quotes Srimad-bhagavatam, 2.9.9:
The Personality of Godhead, being thus very much satisfied with the penance of Lord Brahmā, was pleased to manifest His personal abode, Vaikuṇṭha, the supreme planet above all others. This transcendental abode of the Lord is adored by all self-realized persons freed from all kinds of miseries and fear of illusory existence.
From Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s commentary:
[Vaikuntha] is worshipped by the residents who see it directly, because there is nothing superior to it, since it is free of suffering consisting of ignorance, false identity, attachment, hatred and absorption; it is free of lack of discrimination, and it is free of the fear of falling from it.
Note the last two phrases: there is no possibility of making a wrong choice, or feeling hatred or envy, and since maya cannot be perceived there as proved before (SB, 2.9.10), one cannot ‘choose’ maya. And finally it is “free of the fear of falling from it”. There are no exceptions given and by its very absolute nature this statement confirms once again, that, “no one falls from Vaikuntha”. EVER.
Thus, the basis for the opposing arguments is nullified completely - once again. Remember, Srila Prabhupada only ever said the “possibility” was there, but he never said in his books that it actually happens - EVER. He always agrees with Krsna, sastra and the acaryas. Moving on to one more point in LB, 5.237:
In that place the Lord’s associates are black, reddish, green or white in complexion. By worshipping the Lord with a particular complexion the devotee attains a form with a similar complexion. Or, in the case of the nitya-siddhas of course their complexion is eternally the same.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana:
By worshipping the Lord who is black, red, green or white, one attains a simiar form with a similar color.
Notice there’s nothing about being re-instated in your original form or waking up in your original position in the lila. Not even close. The devotee “attains” a form according to their worship.
|
|
|
Post by niscala on Sept 5, 2014 22:42:37 GMT -5
Srila Prabhupada only ever said the “possibility” was there, but he never said in his books that it actually happens - EVER.
That's a good point- Simultaneously inconceivably possible and impossible. They have free choice, but they never misuse it. These were also Srila Prabhupada words on the subject. An eternal choice to fall, which is never taken up. This is impossible for conditioned souls to grasp, because we are so conditioned to an independent rebellious attitude, that eternally being in love with Krsna seems impossible. We have never experienced eternal love, and all our hopes for it are eternally dashed, in this realm, and all our eperience of love is never so intense that the thought of leaving the beloved is impossible, even though possible. But if you multiply our most intense experience of love here a billionfold, or a trillionfold, and take away the effect of material time, which makes things temporary and thus causes disillusionment in due course, then it is easy to see how we would never and for all eternity fail to want to be with and love Krsna. Plus all our dearly loved and exquisitely charming friends are there- who wants to leave a perfect home for the dark oblivion of a place we have never been before (or from which we came, and from which we experienced one misery after another?)
|
|
|
Post by ulisesguerrero on Jan 24, 2015 14:00:29 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga!
Thank you for your book and opening this forum for spiritual discussions. I read the book chapter and this forum thread. In the last posts you mentioned:
>"Remember, Srila Prabhupada only ever said the “possibility” was there, but he never said in > his books that it actually happens - EVER"
As far as I know, Narada Muni did say directly that former associates of Viṣṇu (Sisupala and Dantavakra) fell down:
Hare Kṛṣṇa! Ulises Guerrero
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 24, 2015 17:01:08 GMT -5
Ulises: It is understood from that section of SB that Jaya and Vijaya did not fall because of envy or any other incompatible mentality. It was a special case for the lila of Krsna to fight with them. And they only came to the material world temporarily with a guarantee of returning after their purpose was served. Other than them, I am not aware of any other instances of devotees falling from the spiritual world, and there is certainly no mention at all that these material universes are populated by jivas who all fell from Vaikuntha.
|
|
|
Post by ulisesguerrero on Jan 24, 2015 17:46:39 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga!
Then, it is proper to say that indeed there are cases where the spirit soul falls down from the spiritual world. I've read another one which is related to the appearance of Tulasī, although I don't know its autenticity, similar to Jaya and Vijaya.
It is my understanding that each jiva has its own unique individual relationship with Kṛṣṇa, and thus they can appear in this world for numerous reasons. I dislike those who discredit Śrīla Prabhupāda who argue that he did it only as a "story-tale" for neophytes, I believe this is offensive. It is fact that spirit souls fall down from the spiritual world, and although they come to this world, they still remain Kṛṣṇa-conscious.
So, why not instead say that each jiva has its own path, and each story is individual and unique? Why do we have to take one side or the other and instead accept that it is inconceivable?
Hare Kṛṣṇa Ulises
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 25, 2015 15:19:59 GMT -5
No need to be so formal during our discussions. We're not writing letters back and forth. We're having an on-going discussion. No it is not proper to say that. It is wrong. Krsna says emphatically and repeatedly that 'no one falls from His abode." Three times in Bhagavad-gita alone. He does not mention any exceptions and all of the acaryas and sastra agree with Him. There are cases where nitya-siddhas 'descend' for some specific purpose, but that is not characterized by the acaryas as "falling down". They did not fall - they came by their own will or at the request of Krsna. And even then, they don't actually 'leave' Goloka. 70-80 years on earth is less than a split-second in Goloka, and the fact is that nitya-siddhas can expand themselves into multiple forms, so they don't leave, they just do their business on earth or wherever in another suitable form while simultaneously remaining in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Nitya-baddha jivas in the material world have never had a relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world before entering material existence, so there is no 'pre-existing' relationship. Nitya-baddha jivas are in material existence for one reason only - they chose to come here instead of going to the spiritual world. That is the meaning of their marginal position, ie: tatastha-sakti and this was confirmed by a lot of direct evidence in previous posts in this discussion thread. Jivas are different from the nitya-siddhas in the spiritual world. Nitya-bhaddha jivas can become sadhana-siddhas and join the nitya-siddhas in the nitya-lila. Sadhana-siddhas thus become nitya-muktas, but they are never exactly like the nitya-siddhas. I've never heard anyone say it was a 'story-tale', nor have I seen anyone 'discredit' SP. Some people have said it was a 'preaching strategy' according to time and circumstances and the specific audience, and there is evidence that SP did this numerous times. In a purport in CC, SP reveals some of his insights on spreading the path of bhakti-yoga around the world, along with some of his considerations for making practical adjustments. In this case, it was in relation to teaching renunciation: To broadcast the [path] of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one has to learn the possibility of renunciation in terms of country, time and candidate. A candidate for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries should be taught about the renunciation of material existence, but one would teach candidates from a country like India in a different way. The teacher (ācārya) has to consider time, candidate and country. He must avoid the principle of niyamagraha – that is, he should not try to perform the impossible. What is possible in one country may not be possible in another. The ācārya’s duty is to accept the essence of devotional service. There may be a little change here and there as far as yukta-vairāgya(proper renunciation) is concerned. CC, 2.23.105, Purport Bhagavata Maharaja also told me an anecdote he heard: When Dr. OBL Kapoor asked Srila Prabhupada why he hinted at a fall for the Jivas when there was none, Srila Prabhupada said to Dr. OBL Kapoor that westerners were so impersonal by nature that he wanted to give us some context of being personal from the beginning of time so he hinted at some fall like Adam and Eve so we would have a more personal conception. (end) And the most important fact is that, in his books, SP never said we were with Krsna in His lila and we fell from that position. Those few statements were in private letters and conversations. In his books, SP agrees 100% with Krsna, the previous acaryas and sastra, ie: no one falls from the spiritual world - EVER. SP never wanted his private letters to be used to override anything in his books. His books take precedence over his letters and conversations. In the very last part of Srila Vyasadeva's Brahma-sutras, 4.4.22, it states: “There is no return from the Lord’s abode, because of scriptural statements.” This is followed by 1.5 pages of sastric quotes confirming this incontrovertible truth. Here are some excerpts from Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s commentary which should put this matter to rest: One should never worry that ‘the Supreme Lord would desire to make the jiva who is dependent on Him fall from His planet, and that the devotee would ever desire to give up the Lord,' since scripture describes their mutual affection for each other. ‘The Lord can never let His devotees fall’ because smriti says the devotees have exclusive devotion to Him and the Lord is determined never to give them up, and because the Lord is without faults like cruelty or miserliness and the devotees are without fault, having devotion exclusively for the Lord. No it is not a fact. That is not correct. There is no evidence to support that. Jaya and Vijaya are not evidence. They did 'not' fall. The only people who descend are nitya-siddhas and they do NOT fall. You are mixing up terminology. They do not 'fall' - they 'descend' of their own free will or at Krsna's request. Because that is not the correct tattva or siddhanta according to our philosophy, and therefore, it falls in the realm of mental speculation. I think you may not have read this entire thread and thus, you have missed a lot of evidence from BVT and SBSST and others explaining how the nitya-baddha jivas entered material existence. Jivas are tatastha-sakti - marginal - and some of these jivas went directly into the spiritual world and some directly entered material existence. There are not 'individual stories'. You will not find any sastric evidence to support this mistaken notion. If you do, please let us know. I have not found anything which even remotely indicates this idea. Some aspects of this subject may be inconceivable, ie: when or how it happened. We are discussing this aspect: 'from where' did the jivas fall, and this is not entirely inconceivable. We were never with Krsna in His lila and we therefore did not fall from His lila because He says it cannot happen - He won't let it happen - EVER. And as far as 'taking sides', the issue is this: Our primary interest should be to understand the correct truth and its conclusions - tattvas and siddhantas. Except for some devotees in ISKCON, there has never been a controversy about this subject. ALL of the acaryas and ALL sastra and Krsna Himself state that no one falls from the spiritual world. Therefore, there cannot be two separate and completely different truths about this subject. That is impossible and not accepted by the acaryas. Therefore, we are obliged to take the side of Krsna, the acaryas (including SP) and sastra, and to reject the confused misinterpretation of SP's statements by people who do not fully understand all of the relevant details of this subject.
|
|
|
Post by ulisesguerrero on Jan 25, 2015 19:35:45 GMT -5
Uttamasloka prabhu, why do you say I'm mixing terminology? I'm reading the verse, and it says fell. Are you saying that this verse is incorrectly translated and it should not say "fell", but "descend"? Hare Kṛṣṇa! Ulises
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 25, 2015 22:19:24 GMT -5
Let's not waste time over petty issues like semantics. We are seeking the core understanding being conveyed by SB and SP. It is understood from the content of the verses and purports that this was a special arrangement by Krsna so He could fight with suitable opponents. They also had the option to take birth 7 times as realized devotees, but Krsna's desire was to fight, so they followed His desires. Here are some confirming references:
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. SB, 3.16.26
The Lord then said to His attendants, Jaya and Vijaya: Depart this place, but fear not. All glories unto you. Though I am capable of nullifying the brāhmaṇas’ curse, I would not do so. On the contrary, it has My approval. SB, 3.16.29
Srila Prabhupada's Purport:
As explained in connection with text 26, all the incidents that took place had the approval of the Lord. Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuṇṭha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world.
Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval; otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: “All glories unto you.” A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Lord, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. SB, 3.25.29
The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world. SB, 5.11.12
from Srila Prabhupada's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35
From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.
|
|
lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by lal on Jan 27, 2015 21:46:09 GMT -5
The idea that Prabhupada never wrote directly about the fall of the jiva in his books I have often heard repeated by many devotees who have looked into the debate, including Kundali and Satyanarayana in their book on the topic "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall." But everyone is wrong, there is one place I know of, in a purport:
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.28.54
As far as I know this is the only direct statement in favor of a fall from lila, interpreting this to mean anything other then fall from lila would need to explain away the concept of "being engaged in service," all the rest state the jiva does not fall.
I never heard that story from Bhagavat Maharaja, but it would certainly explain why he taught the fall and no fall. He contradicted himself on many topics I think because at the beginning of ISKCON he was dealing with free love seeking hippies and yogi impersonalists practically exclusively, as those times moved on so did his teachings become to resemble more and more the traditional Gaudiya positions.
I have a question for everyone, do you think ISKCON should continue to present all of Prabhupada contradictory teachings as valid, or should they change that and explain that some teachings were an adjustment for time, place, and circumstance? At present they seem to still be confused as what to do and that is why they often attack the no-fall position on that issue. They made an offical GBC resolution that no other teaching on the topic can be taught other than the fall. The law makes no sense since it presents both positions, the fall and no fall, as true - but the only one allowed to be taught is the no-fall position.
In the GBC resolution they actually quote only one thing from Prabhupada, and that is the above purport. Here is the resolution:
As you can see the first thing they say is that no one falls from Vaikuntha, then they quote that purport and say no one can teach different from it.
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 28, 2015 1:53:02 GMT -5
Lal: Thanks for that purport. The accepted process for determining the correct truths (tattvas) and conclusions (siddhantas) is to examine ALL of the evidence as a whole, ie: sastra, the acaryas and Krsna. That is the honest approach and the only one that is acceptable to discerning and learned Vaisnavas. ISKCON has clearly not done this and their refusal to look at all the evidence in a logical and reasonable way reveals a serious flaw in their position.
For ISKCON to use that one purport and ignore the overwhelming evidence to the contrary is offensive. Other than that one purport, SP's books are filled with evidence that only supports the no fall truth and he is thus in complete harmony with Krsna, sastra and the previous acaryas. All of SP's statements to the contrary are in a few private letters, conversations and some lectures. SP was very clear that his books are the final word on any philosophical matter and his books are his legacy.
I have heard from various sources that many devotees in ISKCON do not accept the fall idea but they remain silent so as not to jeopardize their positions. Such are the ways and politics of institutions. ISKCON can make any laws they want but none of them have any relevance for me or many others. I would happily engage in a public debate with any ISKCON scholars on this issue but that's not very likely to happen any time soon. In the meantime, I'll just carry on presenting the truth as it presented by the previous acaryas, SP, sastra and Krsna.
|
|
|
Post by niscala on Jan 29, 2015 3:57:12 GMT -5
If we are not to "take sides" as Ulises suggested, then we must side with ALL Srila Prabhupada's statements, and reconcile them, as much as possible. Since the badhha jiva's origin is Mahavisnu, who is non-different from Krsna, then it is entirely true we have been with Krsna, but have forgotten that origin-al relationship.
That relationship is eternal- nitya Krsna dasa- eternal servants of Krsna. Eternal means even now, even before we engaged in bhakti, even as animals or plants, we continually serve Krsna who is non-different from His material energy and present in every atom. We serve him, and are attracted to Him, but are forgetful that it is Him we are serving, Him we are actually attracted to- therefore it is described as forgetful.
Such service to Krsna's material energy is (obviously) not the prema imbued service of the prema bhaktas in Goloka, who are in full and complete consciousness and absorption of Him, and whose love only ever expands. Since they all possess prema, if they were to fall, then prema would be defective- but it is never described that way. The very definition of prema, is that it never diminishes, even if there are causes for it diminishing, and there are no such causes in the spiritual world, only impetuses (uddipanas), and all the inhabitants possess prema in full. They always pray to see Him constantly and His brief absence plunges them into a deep river of grief, only to be pulled out with constant thought and remembrance of Him and anticipation of His return from the forest.
We cannot take a side that contradicts these descriptions of the condition of devotees who have prema, as described in Bhakti Rsamrita Sindhu and other literature. Nor should we take a side which contradicts Srila Prabhupada when he said, in conversations, that we come from Krsna's lila. Understanding that Krsna's pastime is this material world, where He gives free choice to the living entity to serve Him- or not- and constantly accompanies the jiva just to help him and guide Him back to consciousness of Him, we see no error in Srila Prabhupada's teaching on an essential level, and on a practical level, it is to be understood that he made a very intelligent and essential adjustment for time, place and circumstance.
|
|
Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
|
Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 11, 2015 8:51:17 GMT -5
Uttamasloka prabhu is so clean, clear and lucid in his writings to dismantle all misconceptions that stand in the way of the pristine jewels from the mine of Vaisnava conclusions, siddhanta and tattva.
Yes, it is fully refreshing, bracing, and an energizing tonic for the soul who is always thirsting for the immortal nectar flow of the ambrosial nectar of Krsna-katha kahani.
I want to hear it straight, truth is truth, which doesn't look at anyone in the face, unambiguous, impartial and fully liberating. I want to be on this Absolute Truth team supporting the movement of solid fundamental axiomatic truths thus upholding the prestige of the guru-parampara, the sampradaya from Lord Brahma, Sri Madhavacarya, all the Gaudiya acaryas coming from Mahaprabhu, the six Goswamis from Vrindavan, Srila Prabhupada up to and including our current link our most revered spiritual master in this line through whom all predecessor siksa gurus can be accessed for bona fide spiritual instruction on the path of prema-bhakti.
All glories, all glories to The Absolute Truth, The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna and His Most Beloved Consort Srimati Radharani. And All Glories To The Devotees Who Strive To Attain Their Lotus Feet By Pure Unalloyed Devotion
PS: Another devotee states:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uttamasloka prabhu: (Chapter 1, page 42)
|
|
|
Post by madhavalata on Jun 23, 2015 6:32:17 GMT -5
I am now reading this section of your book. I found this statement :
"then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakata lila?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sadhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Sri Vrndavana Dhama.
The following I excerpted from Sri Garga Samhita 1.4 where there is a long list of all the women who will take birth as gopis in Vraja and there is also stated: " [...]..some women not from heavenly planets and some women acting in the three modes will become gopis on the earth".
"Women acting in the three modes" are conditioned souls still materially entangled.
Thankful if you can clarify. Haribol.
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 23, 2015 11:27:24 GMT -5
It would help to read several verses before and after the quote you gave so we can see the broader context. There may also be translation issues to consider. That being said, 'acting in the 3 modes' may simply refer to those engaged in sadhana-bhakti, since sadhakas are still within the modes of nature to some extent. The various sources of those who become gopis is discussed in Ujjvala-nilamani, chapter 3, Krsna's Beloveds: Individual attainment: Those persons who have great attachment for the paroḍhā-bhāva and are absorbed in rāgānuga sādhana, develop intense sādhana arising from their longing. After some time they are born in Vraja singly, or in groups of two or three. There are two divisions of ayauthikyas: senior and recent. Long before, the seniors attained the residence with the eternal gopīs. The recent devotees are born in Vraja after taking birth as humans or devatās. UN, 3.49, 50, 51 Excerpts from Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary: They attain intense practice of rāgānuga bhakti (anurāgaugham). Anurāgaugham does not refer to the level of anurāga, for it is impossible to manifest anurāga in a sādhaka body. Senior devotees are those persons who attained perfection when Kṛṣṇa appeared as avatāra in previous kalpas. They did not attain perfection in the present kalpa when Kṛṣṇa appeared. They attained perfection in kalpas previous to the present one, but in the present kalpa they also appear along with Kṛṣṇa, and in future kalpas they will also appear with him. The recent devotees will take birth in Vraja after being born as humans, devatās and Gandharvas. …“If those present day persons practicing rāgānuga attain prema in some birth by going through the states of niṣṭhā, ruci, and āsakti, they become qualified for service to the Lord. At the time of leaving the body, will they attain the positions of associates beyond the material world, or participate when the Lord descends as avatāra?” Since it is impossible for the transformations of prema such as sneha, māna, praṇaya to appear in the body of a sādhaka, by the power of associating in gopī bodies with nitya-siddha gopīs having mahābhāva, and by seeing, hearing, remembering and chanting about the qualities of the Lord, they will certainly attain such a position. Since these methods are very powerful, without them one cannot attain perfection as a gopī. ...It is not seen that the sādhakas of this world enter into the pastimes of Vṛndāvana unmanifest in this world, whereas it is seen that the siddhas enter to those pastimes. Thus it is only a place for siddhas, for stages like sneha do not quickly manifest by one’s own sādhana. Thus, by yogamāyā, devotees who have developed prema join at the time of Kṛṣṇa’s avatāra in the manifestation of Vṛndāvana in this world as a preliminary attainment. This can be inferred by seeing that sādhakas, various materialistic persons and siddhās all enter this earthly Vṛndāvana. It is the place for sādhakas and siddhas, where they can perfect their bhāvas before associating directly with Kṛṣṇa. Here is a chart summarizing that section of Ujjvala-nilamani. Click on it for a larger view:
|
|
lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by lal on Jun 23, 2015 18:17:45 GMT -5
I am now reading this section of your book. I found this statement : "then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakata lila?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sadhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Sri Vrndavana Dhama. The following I excerpted from Sri Garga Samhita 1.4 where there is a long list of all the women who will take birth as gopis in Vraja and there is also stated: " [...]..some women not from heavenly planets and some women acting in the three modes will become gopis on the earth". "Women acting in the three modes" are conditioned souls still materially entangled. Thankful if you can clarify. Haribol. That section (first canto) is describing how different people become elevated to lila, what it doesn't say is that women affected by the modes entered into lila, which is how you put it. Instead it says women under the modes who have performed sacred or holy acts (sadhana of some sort) have attained lila, punyair nana-vidhaih kritaih, the use of vidhaih indicates some type of regulated or regimented punya, or sacred holy act. Later (fourth canto) it uses the same language to describe the gopis:
|
|