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Post by Uttamasloka on Apr 23, 2014 12:52:07 GMT -5
In several discussions on FaceBook, some devotees have put forth the mistaken notion that the nitya-baddha jivas are actually in Goloka or Vaikuntha and are simply "dreaming" that they are trapped in the material world. This is serious apasiddhanta.
Krsna has three energies: svarupa-sakti (internal), maya-sakti (external) and tatastha-sakti (marginal). Maya-sakti is real, it is NOT a dream or a false illusion. Because its manifestations are temporary, it is "illusory" but nonetheless, it is still very real and the nitya-baddha jivas are trapped in and by maya-sakti eternally. The jivas' conditioned state is said to be "like" a dream due to the temporary nature of material existence, but it is very real and not false. Here is a reference from BVT's Jaiva-dharma. Note the phrase, "the jiva's first location':
Yādava dāsa: Is this deceptive material existence false?
Ananta dāsa: No, this deceptive world is not false; it is a reality, by Kṛṣṇa’s will. It is the jīva’s conception of ‘I’ and ‘mine’ when he enters the material world that is false. Those who believe that this world is false are Māyāvādīs, advocates of the theory of illusion. Such people are offenders.
Yādava dāsa: Why have we fallen into this illusory relationship?
Ananta dāsa: Bhagavān is the complete spiritual entity (pürṇa-cidvastu), and the jīvas are particles of spirit (cit-kaṇa). The jīva‘s first location is on the boundary line between the material and spiritual worlds. The jīvas who do not forget their relationship with Kṛṣṇa are empowered with cit-śakti, and are drawn from that position into the spiritual realm, where they become His eternal associates and begin to relish the bliss of His service.
Those jīvas who turn away from Kṛṣṇa desire to enjoy māyā, and māyā attracts them towards her by her potency. From that moment, our material state of existence comes into being and our true spiritual identity disappears. We therefore think, “I am the enjoyer of māyā”. This false egoism covers us with many varieties of false identities.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 10, 2014 23:30:41 GMT -5
This is incredibly beautiful and powerful. Hearing these statements, how can anyone imagine that Krsna would banish anyone from His lila, or that any residents of the spiritual realm could possibly have envious thoughts?
Govinda Bhasya, verse 4.4.22, from the commentary by Baladeva Vidyabhusana:
The worlds, beginning with the world of Brahma, they come and go, O Arjuna but he who cometh unto me, O Kaunteya, he knoweth birth no more. (Gita, 18, 15, 16).
Nor indeed can it be feared that the Supreme Lord, the blessed Hari, will ever wish to throw down from his world, His servant, the Mukta, or that the Mukta would ever wish to leave his Beloved. For has not the Lord said in the Gita (7.17):
I am supremely dear to the wise and he is dear to me." Or does not the Bhagavata Purana also say, "I am the heart of the Sadhus, and the Sadhus are verily my heart." Thus there is excess of reciprocal love between the two, leaving no room for any such doubts, unworthy both of the Lord and His Devotee.
Also in the Bhagavata Purana, we have the following : Those who leaving aside wives, sons, houses, lives and riches sought shelter in me, how can I allow myself to desert them?
A clean-souled man never leaves the feet of Sri Krishna, just as a traveller who has reached his home after undergoing all sorts of trouble, does not leave it.
Thus, on the one hand, the Lord has a strong determination not to leave His devotees and, on the other hand, His devotees have an equally strong love for Him, which does not allow them to leave Him.
To sum up, the Lord never abandons His own extremely beloved children, who are a fragment of His own essence, after having brought them to His home, and after having washed away their ignorance, which had caused them to turn their face from the Lord.
More so when it is remembered that the promises of the Lord are ever true, that His resolutions are never frustrated, that He is an ocean of protecting kindness for all those who take shelter under Him, and that He is the Lord of all. Such a being will never renounce His devotees, who have abandoned everything.
The jiva also, on the other hand, whose quest was ever happiness, and who had constantly been deluded by a show of it in the shape of wives, children, etc., and who had passed innumerable lives in the pursuit of these false pleasures, will not leave that infinity of true joy and wisdom, the best friend and master, the most merciful, when he has found Him through the grace of a good teacher and through the arising of his good fortune.
The soul, when it has once found its origin, never has any desire for things other than the Lord and follows Him alone and never wishes to be away from Him. This is not a question for logical arguments, it is a matter learnt through the scriptures alone and must be so believed, whose sole authorities are the scriptures.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 13, 2014 22:53:28 GMT -5
From Srila Prabhupada's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35:
"From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.
The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā.
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha."
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 20, 2014 1:27:17 GMT -5
Over the last week or so, I've been participating in yet another FB thread about the fall of the jiva issue. It's on a private FB forum so I can't send everyone the link. Here is my latest post which summarizes everything and IMO provides irrefutable proof that the jivas did NOT fall from the lila.
The issue of inconceivability is actually a non-issue in this discussion because we are not debating inconceivable things like eternity, without beginning, etc. The issue of “when” the jivas entered material existence is not the focus or concern of our discussion, at least not based on what I’ve presented. The focus has been about “where” the jivas were when their entry into material existence took place, ie: were they in the lila or were they somewhere else? This is a matter of Vedic tattvas and Gaudiya siddhantas, both of which are fully within the scope of acceptable subjects for discussion and they are not beyond our adhikara.
And yes, the repeated notion, “what does it matter, let’s focus on getting out of here” is also a valid point, but that alone is not the basis for ignoring what the correct tattvas and siddhantas are. Our lineage is not tolerant of apasiddhanta and mental speculation about core truths, and if someone is espousing such blatant misconceptions, it is fully acceptable to point them out and present the correct version according to our acaryas. Srila Prabhupada was very strict about these principles and that is my primary motivation for presenting the evidence I’ve provided.
There is no “live and let live” in that regard. These particular topics are not merely matters of interpretive opinions - there are axiomatic truths involved. The truth according to our acaryas should be properly established and understood. I don’t see why anyone would have a problem with that. They are matters which can be easily resolved by examining the evidence provided by SP and the acaryas. Let’s do that beginning with some established facts.
FACT: There are no direct statements in the Srimad-bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrita, Vedanta-sutra, Upanisads and Bhagavad-gita stating unequivocally that the jivas in the material universes have all fallen from within Krsna’s lila, either Vaikuntha or Goloka. I’ve not seen any from the Puranas either.
FACT: There are also no direct statements like that in any of the major books of the previous acaryas. At least not in any of the 25-30 major books I recently studied. It is very important for devotees to understand these facts clearly.
The big question that arises is, “From what source then did Srila Prabhupada derive this idea that we were with Krsna in His lila when we fell, since it didn’t come from the Vedic literatures just mentioned, nor from the books of the previous acaryas, who are the foundational philosophical architects of our movment?”
Was SP mistaken? Of course not. Did SP misunderstand the philosophy in this regard or what the previous acaryas had written? Of course not. Did SP intend to change what the Vedas and the previous acaryas have established? Of course not. Then why did he make those statements privately? First, let’s look at the other position.
Did SP say anything that was in complete harmony with the previous acaryas? Yes, he said repeatedly that “no one falls from the spiritual realm”, just as the acaryas have said and as is repeatedly confirmed in Vedic literatures, as well as by Krsna Himself directly. Did SP actually say directly in his books - not letters or room conversations - that the jivas in the material universes have all fallen from Krsna’s lila? Not to my knowledge.
I’m sure if he did, Gauragopala would have provided those direct statements, but he has not - only a few private letters, conversations and a few lectures. According to SP, his books are his foundational legacy in terms of establishing the core philosophical tenets of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy - not his private letters to specific individuals or room conversations.
Did SP say anything else that concurs with the previous acaryas about this subject? Yes he did. Like all of the acaryas he said things like, “we turned away from Krsna,” “we have fallen into the material world,” “we have rejected Krsna,” “we desired to enjoy separate from Krsna,” “we were bewildered by maya,” and so on. It’s very important to note that when SP said these things in his books, he never specifically stated therein that this took place within the lila, and neither did any of the acaryas.
Here are some more absolute facts that are axiomatic. FACT: There is no possibility of maya entering the spiritual realm. There are no material modes of nature there. It is pure suddha-sattva existence within Krsna’s most powerful svarupa-sakti. The inhabitants of the spiritual realms do not even know that there are material universes or maya. I have already given supporting references from SB 2.9.10 and Brahma-samhita in a previous post. Here is more proof from Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 16, Jīvas Possessed by Māyā:
Bābājī: …Innumerable jīvas appear from Śrī Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vṛndāvana-vihari Śrī Kṛṣṇa as His eternal associates in Goloka Vṛndāvana, and others appear from Śrī Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuṇṭha, Śrī Nārāyana, in the spiritual sky.
Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavān, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-śakti, they are always strong.
They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called māyā or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, māyā is very far away from them and does not affect them at all.
Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear. JD chapter 16.
Therefore, it is not possible for liberated jivas who reside in the spiritual realms to even contemplate another alternative to their 24/7 experiences of ever-expanding prema in the personal association of the most attractive personality in all existence. Logically, you cannot choose between two options if you don’t even know about the existence of the 2nd option. And maya cannot influence anyone there either, so there is no question of them becoming enamored by maya.
The only possible position from which the tatastha-sakti jivas can perceive both options together is from their marginal position situated between the spiritual and material realms. SP describes that position as being like where the ocean water meets the shore sand. It is from that inbetween position that they make their first choice, which has eternal consequences. Again from Jaiva-dharma:
There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jīvas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Mahā-Viṣṇu’s glance upon His māyā-śakti. Because these jīvas are situated next to māyā, they perceive her wonderful workings.
Although they have all the qualities of the jīvas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jīva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship.
Among these unlimited jīvas, those who want to enjoy māyā become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jīvas who perform cid-anuśilanam of Bhagavān receive spiritual śakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. JD, Chapter 16, Page 377-378
It is in direct reference to being in this marginal position that SP and the acaryas have made their statements, “we turned away from Krsna,” “we have fallen into the material world,” “we have rejected Krsna,” “we desired to enjoy separate from Krsna,” “we became bewildered by maya” and so on. That did not happen within the lila because it cannot happen there. “When” this event happened is irrelevant, but “where” it happened is very important to understand because it is an important philosophical tenet about the marginal nature of the jivas. From Jaiva-dharma:
Yādava dāsa: Why have we fallen into this illusory relationship?
Ananta dāsa: Bhagavān is the complete spiritual entity (pūrṇa-cidvastu), and the jīvas are particles of spirit (cit-kaṇa). The jīva‘s first location is on the boundary line between the material and spiritual worlds. The jīvas who do not forget their relationship with Kṛṣṇa are empowered with cit-śakti, and are drawn from that position into the spiritual realm, where they become His eternal associates and begin to relish the bliss of His service.
Those jīvas who turn away from Kṛṣṇa desire to enjoy māyā, and māyā attracts them towards her by her potency [which cannot happen within the lila]. From that moment, our material state of existence comes into being and our true spiritual identity disappears. We therefore think, “I am the enjoyer of māyā”. This false egoism covers us with many varieties of false identities. JD, Chapter 7, page 145
According to the Vedic literatures, Krsna Himself, the previous acaryas, and SP, “no one falls from the spiritual realm having once gone there.” Even though it may be theoretically possible - it never actually happens. And it certainly didn’t happen to the extent that Krsna had to create unlimited material universes to accommodate these fallen souls. There is no support for that in sastra nor in the acaryas’ teachings.
If SP’s statements are viewed from this perspective, they take on a whole new meaning and clarity, and show that he was in full agreement with the previous acaryas. I don’t claim to fully understand “why” SP chose to make those private statements about falling from the lila, but a first logical step in understanding his motives and reasoning would be his consideration of time, place, and circumstances, ie: his specific target audience at that time - his neophyte disciples. I leave it up to each individual to come to their own conclusions in this regard.
I would like to hear other devotees’ direct responses or refutations to what I’ve presented here. This is the crux of the matter as I see it, ie: did we fall from the lila or not.? It’s as simple as that, and it’s a very important philosophical point to understand and the evidence is overwhelming and conclusive. We did not fall from the lila into the material world.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 20, 2014 14:48:52 GMT -5
Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has written about the nature of jiva in his essay: Brahmana and Vaisnava, which further confirms what I have presented above:
“Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.
Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.
The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism.
That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind’s fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.
Due to being situated in the marginal position, living entities who are averse to Hari assume the nature of mixed consciousness; in other words, when the marginal energy living entities mix with the external energy, they consider themselves the enjoyers and then enter the material world. The cause of the spirit soul's coming to live in this world in aversion to Krsna is his misuse of his free will. When this aversion becomes strong, the living entities accept a material mind and body in order to enjoy the temporary material world and thus come under the control of fruitive reactions.
And when, on the strength of pious activities, they become transcendental to the varnasrama principles, which distinguish superior and inferior behavior in this world, they become paramahamsas by perfecting themselves through sadhana. Those who become paramahamsas are the Hari-janas. And those who fall from the platform of paramahamsa and engage in fruitive activities while associating with matter are situated on the platform of varnasrama.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 20, 2014 15:39:44 GMT -5
Srila Bhaktisiddantha Sarasvati Thakur Maharaja Prabhupada fully supports the evidence and logic I have given above, as well as being in full agreement with his father BVT:
"Jivas are of two kinds - (1) Nitya-Mukta (eternally free), (2) Nitya-Baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the Supreme God in five different functions in His eternal blissful abode, where there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there never comes back here.
The inconceivably narrowest line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called 'tata'; so also the meeting line of the cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the acit world or the tata region of Maya is called tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the tata is known as the tatastha (lying at the tata) or marginal power.
All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the cit or the acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that; those preferring the acit, fell into the clutches of the octopus Maya, when these mortal costumes of mind and body were put on him as a punishment.
The satanic frenzy in which the jiva dislikes the blissful and eternal service of his Master and prefers to quench his thirstful desires of enjoying matter, opens before him a perpetual spring of liquid fire and poison at which he begins to drink deep. Thus in going to lord it over Maya, jiva became enslaved by her." (Vaisnavism - Real and Apparent)
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
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Post by vishnudas on May 20, 2014 21:41:31 GMT -5
Uttamasloka prabhu , I depend on your expertise to please explain something that has me a bit bewildered.
When Ananta Das said to Yadava Das: "the jīva‘s first location is on the boundary line between the material and spiritual
worlds. The jīvas who do not forget their relationship with Kṛṣṇa are empowered with
cit-śakti, and are drawn from that position into the spiritual realm, where they
become His eternal associates and begin to relish the bliss of His service."
So my question is: if there are jivas at the boundary line who never forgot their
relationship with Krishna and are empowered with cit-sakti and drawn into the
spiritual world from that point, then how did they get to that boundary line in the
first place?
If they do not forget their relationship with Krishna, what are they
doing hanging around the boundary line for, at the risk of falling into mahamaya's
grip? (this could play into the hands of the fall-vadis!)
If that line is the jiva's first location, as stated, how can it be said that he never
forgot his relationship, when there is nothing to remember? "First location" means the
beginning of the jiva right? So how can he "not forget" his relationship with Krishna if
it never existed previously? Or is it his "first location" after being somewhere else?
It's mind-boggling!
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 23, 2014 13:47:14 GMT -5
Good questions Visnu prabhu. Here is my understanding.
The tatastha-sakti produces jivas who are all unique individual persons. Some of them inherently have a stronger inclination towards connecting with Krsna in His realms, and thus it is said that they never forget their relationship with Krsna as His servant, because they do not initially become enamored by maya into forgetfulness.
Others who are not as spiritually strong, are inclined towards independent enjoyment due to being bewildered by maya's lure. In that particular regard, ie: initial spiritual strength (cid-bala) all jivas are not exactly the same.
How we got there is best answered by saying we are generated or manifested from the tatastha-sakti. When this choice was made at the tata region is inconceivable, but it happens nonetheless as described. Inconceivable = mind boggling!
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 24, 2014 21:51:44 GMT -5
Yet another reference in support of the no-fall siddhanta. From Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Mahaprabhura-siksa, Chapter 7:
The jiva is a spiritual, conscious, knowing entity. The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm- because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord.
Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 25, 2014 11:18:57 GMT -5
Regarding the fall/no-fall issue, devotees sometimes cite the story of Jaya and Vijaya, which we know is not an example of jivas falling from Vaikuntha - it was a special case. However, everyone seems to forget the question posed by King Yudhisthira to Narada Muni which started the story. In his question, King Yudhisthira establishes the absolute fact that, " For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this." Even he knew, as did everyone, that no one can fall from Vaikuntha and he was shocked to hear that these two devotees had fallen.
This proves that the prevailing understanding is that it is not possible for devotees to fall from the spiritual realms. That was 5,000 years ago and he was a pure devotee of Krsna and His dear friend. It's also important to note that Narada Muni did not go on to explain that all of the jivas in the material universes had fallen from Vaikuntha. This would have been an ideal place to present that information, but he said nothing of the sort. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada confirms this fact twice.
Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viṣṇu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.
Srila Prabhupada's Purport:
In Bhagavad-gītā (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to this material world. Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gītā (4.9) Kṛṣṇa says:
“One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, therefore, was surprised that a pure devotee could return to this material world. This is certainly a very important question.
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on May 30, 2014 14:05:21 GMT -5
That's what we should all be looking at, straight from Srila Prabhupada's own heart, his books / purports! And you found a gem there Uttamasloka prabhu where Prabhupada repeated it in his purport how Mrj Yudhisthira was incredulous about the story of Jaya and Vijaya , the only case we know of (am I right to say?) where souls fell from Vaikuntha, what to speak of falling from Goloka! We find no instance, no lila, no Bhagavatam stories, no reference at all of the eternally liberated nitya siddhas falling into illusion. Back to Home, Back to Godhead, Back to Krsna etc. takes on a much broader meaning. As in Returning to our constitutional position, and what is that? Gopi bhartur pada kamalayor, dasa dasa dasanudasah... we are initiating our journey Home, back to Godhead as soon as we realize we are servants of Krishna.
So where we came from, where we first fell from, while still in our constitutional position as servant of Krishna, where that tatastha line is drawn for us, where we were so close to looking toward Krishna and going to His realm, we were the unfortunate ones who didn't have enough spiritual cit-shakti to resist the power of Mahamaya. Yes, we all come from Krishna,everything animate and inanimate comes from the Godhead Who's expansion of Karanarnavasayi Visnu is non-different from Him, but we did not come from Krishnaloka, where only eternally perfected nitya-siddhas reside and never fall. But they can and do come to any dimension, to any planet to assist the Lord in His bhauma lila. That is the only known case of them coming, but never "falling".
So as those who don't see this broader picture they imagine the Tatastha as an impersonal realm, but in actuality it is still very personal as the entities are in their constitutional dasya mode, which is the basic spiritual DNA, if you will, of the jiva. They will never lose that essential characteristic (whether they FORGOT it or not).
So when Srila Prabhupada talks of us going back to Krishna's lila, His sport, or that we have come from there, because of the very complex nature of this subject he simplified it for particular audiences he was speaking to. The more complex version would come up now and then in his purports in SB, CC, NOD etc. SP was always speaking of getting back to our constitutional position as servants after first acquiring the necessary adhikara from the practice of bhakti... only then can we attain the Supreme Paramdhama. If we didn't have the adhikara before, then how could we have come from Goloka?? This is obvious. 'Going Back' is actually the same as going Forward because there is no past or future in the spiritual reality. Back and forth are inter-changeable. Just as there was a time when you didn't know anything about Krishna, but just because you didn't know doesn't mean He doesn't exist, past, present or future. But our ignorance (which is never found in a nitya-siddha)is the proof of our immaturity in spiritual matters, and that very spiritual immaturity carries with it the qualities of the fallen jiva-shakti, not a fallen nity-siddha. Nitya-siddhas cannot fall. Jiva-tattva, the marginal entities who have chosen from an inconceivable time and place, which is described as tatastha,are also described as "liberated souls" by Srila Prabhupada because in that original state, like a spark of fire compared to Krishna the total fire, the minute jivas have the qualities not the quantity that Krishna the Supreme Liberated One has. The spark-like jivas are none-the-less dependent for their existence on that Supreme Fire,and being given at that point of tatastha the freedom to choose, most jivas actually turn to Krishna to be UNITED, not RE-UNITED with Him.. This is where the confusion lies in the idea of 'returning' Home. This can easily be studied further. We are the UNfortunate OTHERS, the so-called one fourth percent, which is another catch-phrase which simplifies for us westerners the division of spiritual and material worlds.
It doesn't matter if it's a state of forgetfulness or a state of complete ignorance. The jivas from the point of Tatastha, which is another aspect of Krishna's Lila, His sport, are conscious they are eternal servants, sparks of the Supreme Fire, Krishna, but only at that point are their choices made to try and enjoy His Mahamaya, or turn to Him and be eternally enjoyed by Him. We always have that choice, but only as jiva-tattva. Nitya-siddhas are eternally above this Tatastha cloud of illusory free will, which is given only to jiva-tattva.
Understand it this way... the jiva-tattva are only in the illusion that they have free will, when in actuality they depend completely on the Giver of that free will, Krishna. Nitya-siddhas have surrendered to this fact of total dependence and thus completely live in harmony with Krishna, in Goloka and thus don't have a clue of what it means to fall down, be envious, or even know the workings of Mahamaya where only jiva-tattva, the marginal department of Krishna's creations are manifest. Two completely separate realms. Yes Srila Prabhupada said we always have our minute independence even in Goloka, but it must also be understood that once there, the jiva-become-nitya-siddha has no desire other than to serve Krishna in a particular rasa and wants only to be totally dependent on the Lord.
The independence in the material world,as we are accustomed to, is the exact opposite in the Param Dhama. It is nothing like we are able to comprehend here due to our thick covering of false identity. Therefore that type of independence has no meaning in Krishna's eternal abode. There all of God's associates exist in perfect harmony and love with Him and are completely dependent on His love in reciprocation. The word 'love' cannot even come close to the meaning of Prema as exists in the supreme destination. It's like the difference between a small gemstone and a whole mine of gems. This is why we cannot depend all the time on literal explanations of transcendental subjects. Some things will continue to be achintya for us while struggling with our identity in this mortal cage.
Back to Godhead is only a simplified term for our simple minds to arouse in us a strong desire to rise above our anarthas, become Krishna conscious and just get THERE.Prabhupada created a catch-phrase (in English)for the Western mind-set. 'Onward to Godhead' has the same meaning. When we understand the finer moods, the complex verbal system, rich nominal declension, and extensive use of compound nouns that Sanskrit embodies, we can see that we are very limited when trying to translate transcendental siddhanta into the English language. It's probably much sweeter in Bengali also, what to speak of Vrajabhumi language!
This makes more sense if we understand that the ultimate goal of all linking-to-God yoga systems is Raga-bhakti. If we were actually from Goloka the highest spiritual realm, then we wouldn't need to practice any form of yoga to get back there because we would already be there. Once going... never returns...you cannot be there and here at the same time! You can only be here while practicing raga-bhakti via your siddha-deha through manasi-seva, then it could be said you are here and there at the same time. But still you are not yet a nitya-siddha in Goloka. It's a one-way ticket for those fortunate souls who know the process of getting back FIRST to their constitutional position as servant, which is identical with Going Back To Godhead, but BEING in Goloka is the constitution only of the perfected nitya-siddha, not the jiva-tattva who are still in the process of Going to Godhead. Srila Prabhupada always emphasized, first realize you are servant... this is the meaning of Back to Godhead - back to our constitutional position as servant, which we have forgotten. As soon as the jiva falls from that servant position in Tatastha, and their choice is to enjoy material energy, then they forget everything about Godhead and their eternal position as Krishna's servant. Prabhupada said that we have all seen Krishna at some point. So that's when we saw Him,when we were born into Tatastha, but we also saw His amazing Mahamaya and were then unfortunately seduced right into it.
So to say a jiva fell from Goloka is to say that the process of Bhakti-yoga with all it's 64 angas have no potency, basically a powerless practice to install the sincere and devoted jiva into the realm of Goloka and fix his eternal love and attention there with a gloomy chance that he still may fall down into a hellish body, where this poor jiva can again eat and be eaten, kill and be killed, suffer again countless births, diseases and deaths, and also forget completely about his most adored and precious Lord Giridhari Who doesn't have any concern for this jiva. Because even if the jiva could feel a slight envy of his most precious and adorable Lord, Sri Giridhari would not even have a short conversation with him to try and talk him out of it because He doesn't care that much anyway. Thus the poor jiva, because of a little anartha (which is not possible in Goloka), is cast down again into the muddy cruel world, kicked out of Goloka, even though the Lord Himself promised his devotee he would never perish or return again to that filthy place. So the Lord Himself is essentially a liar and the word "trickster" takes on a whole NEW meaning.
So you see, this whole apa-siddhantic concoction, that the poor fallen nitya-siddha after he has devoted his life to Sri Giridhari, after happily following the 64 angas of Bhakti down within the tri-lokyam somewhere and joyfully being absorbed in blissful bhavas of ragatmika bhakti can go BACK and hang around in Goloka with his sweet Lord for awhile then again become an ordinary jiva standing at the Tatastha fork in the road, is truly a NEW meaning to the words " nitya-siddha or nitya-swarupa", created by those who haven't understood the purports of His Divine Grace, nor the teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the 6 Goswamis, Visvanatha CT, Bhaktivinode Thakur,SBSST etc. etc..
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on May 30, 2014 17:47:38 GMT -5
Taken from Brahma Samhita 5.44 -SBSST purport: .... When jīvas begotten of the marginal potency (taṭasthā śakti) forget the service of Kṛṣṇa they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durgā. The wheel of karma is the instrument of punishment at this place. The work of purifying these penalized jīvas is the duty devolved upon Durgā. She is incessantly engaged in discharging the same by the will of Govinda. When, luckily. the forgetfulness of Govinda on the part of imprisoned jīvas is remarked by them by coming in contact with self-realized souls and their natural aptitude for the loving service of Kṛṣṇa is aroused, Durgā herself then becomes the agency of their deliverance by the will of Govinda. So it behooves everybody to obtain the guileless grace of Durgā, the mistress of this prison house, by propitiating her with the selfless service of Kṛṣṇa. The boons received from Durgā in the shape of wealth, property, recovery from illness, of wife and sons, should be realized as the deluding kindness of Durgā. The mundane psychical jubilations of daśa-mahā-vidyā, the ten goddesses or forms of Durgā, are elaborated for the delusion of the fettered souls of this world. Jīva is a spiritual atomic part of Kṛṣṇa. When he forgets his service of Kṛṣṇa he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Māyā in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool of mundane fruitive activity (karma) by confining him in a gross body constituted by the five material elements, their five attributes and eleven senses, resembling the garb of a prisoner. In this whirlpool jīva has experience of happiness and miseries, heaven and hell. Besides this, there is a subtle body. consisting of the mind, intelligence and ego, inside the gross body. By means of the subtle body. the jīva forsakes one gross body and takes recourse to another. The jīva cannot get rid of the subtle body. full of nescience and evil desires, unless and until he is liberated. On getting rid of the subtle body he bathes in the Virajā and goes up to Hari-dhāma. Such are the duties performed by Durgā in accordance with the will of Govinda. In the Bhāgavata śloka, vilajyamānayā... durdhiyaḥ—the relationship between Durgā and the conditioned souls has been described.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 3, 2014 14:46:18 GMT -5
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Post by muraridas on Jun 4, 2014 5:22:03 GMT -5
I remember when the book entitled "IN VAIKUNTHA NOT EVEN THE LEAVES FALL: A TREATISE ON THE BONDAGE OF THE JIVA" was published by Satya Narayana Das and Kundali Das. It created quite a stir within ISKCON. Eventually, the GBC approached my gurudeva Srila Gour Govinda Swami and requested him to present his findings from sastra on this subject. He compiled a small booklet entitled "Nama Aparadha and Jiva Tattva". Although he held firm to the conclusion given by Srila Prabhupada, being the "Crow and tal fruit Logic", which essentially meant to not bother ourselves debating over our origin (rather focus more on getting out of material entanglement, becoming Krsna conscious, and being transferred to Goloka Vrindavan), Gurudeva presented some very clear sastric quotes on the subject. One very key point is that when referring to the different types of jivas, mention is given in sastra to baddha(conditioned), mukta(liberated), siddha bhakta(devotees who have achieved perfection) and nitya parshada(eternal associates of Krsna). There is no mention anywhere of such type as mukta baddha(first liberated then conditioned). This supports the conclusion that we never did 'falldown' from Krsna-lila as thoroughly explained in "The Realization and Manifestation of Your Eternal Identity".
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on Jun 8, 2014 12:09:11 GMT -5
Uttamasloka prabhu, thanks for that link you gave which I think everyone should read who want to understand the deeper meanings, hidden "strategies" to get the job done, the goal of delivering the uneducated souls from their suffering condition. As was mentioned there, even Lord Buddha, Sankaracharya, Veda Vyasa and Jiva Goswami taught apparent non-siddhanta as a preaching strategy, a method to enlighten their specific audiences, who were contaminated to a particular degree of tamoguna, as neophytes, and in our case accordingly to our mostly Judeo/Christian and also atheistic backgrounds.
Also mentioned in that article "An acceptable presentation must undergo sastra sangati--proper reconciliation of apparent contradictions" which is in reference to Vedic scholars communicating with other scholars. These topics aren't normally discussed amongst the kanisthas, neophytes or the general public because of the fact that it is the more complex and somewhat secretive siddhanta.
Srila Prabhupada writes,
These are the secrets of the acaryas. Sometimes they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas, and explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, purp.)
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