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Post by niscala on Nov 18, 2013 1:51:02 GMT -5
When I heard my first lecture in Krsna consciousness, it was described that God has six opulences. I remember being very disappointed that one of them was not love, or compassion. Of course, from reading the books I could understand that God is loving and compassionate, especially as Sri Chaitanya, unlimitedly so. And now as we read more, we see that Krsna is indeed love, prema. It seems to me that love is not listed in the six opulences, because opulences can be covered, via the lila sakti, for example- but love cannot. There is no covering of what is expanding unlimitedly in all directions.
To give pleasure to His devotees, Krishna hides His opulence of strength and becomes a baby. He hides his wealth opulence and appears as a dust covered cowherd boy. He hides His fame and becomes a resident of a certain locality on earth. He hides His knowledge and franticly looks for His flute that the gopis have hidden. He hides His renunciation and becomes better known as a philanderer or upapati. He hides His beauty when He hides His beautiful form. But because love controls Krsna, He cannot hide it. Prema controls Him, nothing else does. Therefore prema is the Supreme Controller, and Her embodiment is Radha.
In rasa sastra the opulences are stimulants for prema. The gopis are attracted by His powerful arms which are like tree trunks and evoke their loving feelings. They are attracted to His fame by always discussing His extraordinary activities. They are attracted to the simple wealth He displays- all the beautiful ornaments on His form and His simple possessions of flute and peacock feather. These are all stimulants for rati. Even His renunciation, as when He leaves them bereft, evokes feelings of separation which increases prema. His knowledge acts as a stimulant when He uses it to do verbal battles of wit with His beloveds- mostly with concomitant embarrassment of defeat and enjoying taunting and ridicule as more relishable than millions of prayers about His glories. Of course, it goes without saying that His unparallelled beauty is a stimulant for rasa.
Therefore, the opulences appear, or are covered, in various ways that increase loving prema between Krsna and His devotees. What is not covered, but is always increased, is the prema itself.
Similarly, the description of God body being eternity knowledge and bliss seems to also exclude love- or does it? Experientially, we hanker for exactly this- eternity, knowledge and bliss. Its what we are, but have lost access to, a lost identity. Its what God is, that we have also lost access to, a lost love. Before entering any path of devotion, a certain hankering must be there, so this description of God acts a stimulant for love in the conditioned soul. He recognizes that, in his quest for permanence, knowledge and happiness, he has been hankering for God all along.
Because God is love, and compassion is an expression of that, the whole material nightmare is a stimulation for love in the conditioned soul. The unfulfilled desires, which cause us pain, eventually evoke a sense of surrender, which remains with the soul eternally and is built upon, until finally with the help of guru, sadhu and sastra it reaches a point when ruci is awakened, then progress is very fast and unstoppable.
I know that my use of the word stimulant as applicable to conditioned souls, may be different from the way the rasa sastra uses the word uddipanas. I mean it in a much broader sense. With prema-imbued devotees , the stimulants are very specific- the flute, the flute sound, the feather. For conditioned souls, they are general. Interestingly, the beauty of the very handsome youths of Vraja does nothing to evoke raga or prema in the gopis- only Krsna's beauty. Therefore, this means that while opulence (beauty) is a stimulant for loving exchange, it does not control it- only prema does. Therefore, the alambana described in the sastra has only one object- Krsna.
I am wondering if prema can be for Radha or one's group leader? If not, then why is it said that the manjaris have more affection for their group leader than Krsna- what are they feeling for their group leader, if not prema? But if thats the case, why is it said that prema has only one visaya for the devotee- Krsna? Another question is- if it is true that devotees can have prema for Radha or their group leader, does that prema result in sattvika bhavas?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Nov 22, 2013 14:09:18 GMT -5
Radha's sakhis are categorized into five groups. The sakhis have asama-sneha, ie: more affection (sneha) for Krsna than Radha, the nitya-sakhis and prana-sakhis are also asama-sneha, with more affection for Radha than Krsna. The priya-sakhis and asta-sakhis are sama-sneha with equal affection for both Radha and Krsna, although it vacillates between them according to circumstances.
In any case, the operative word is sneha - affection - and not prema. Prema is the specific love between Krsna and His devotees. Sneha as referred to herein is an element of prema. I haven't read anywhere that the love between devotees in Vraja is also considered prema in the same sense as prema between Krsna and His devotees. Perhaps others can add some insights on this.
Certainly the love of the sakhis for Radha is also prema because from the perspective of tattva, She is non-different from Krsna, but such love is not described in Ujjvala-nilamani specifically in terms of the alambanas, ie: visaya and asraya. Also, the seven progressive stages of prema are described in UN specifically in conjunction with the devotees and Krsna and not between devotees. This brings up the subject of bhavollasa-rati, which I discussed in my book in chapter 3. Here are the relevant quotes to add to our insights in this subject:
If the rati of the associates of Rādhā directed to Rādhā is equal or less than their rati directed to Kṛṣṇa, the rati directed to Rādhā is called sañcārī-rati, nourishing the rati towards Kṛṣṇa. If the rati of Rādhā’s associates directed to Rādhā is greater than that directed to Kṛṣṇa, and is constantly increasing, though it is still a sañcārī-bhāva, it is called bhāvollāsa-rati. BRS, 2.5.128
Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Api ca indicates that the chapter is finished, but now some additional information will be given. The meaning of the verse is as follows. Suhṛd-ratiḥ (rati directed to one’s friends) indicates, for instance, the rati of principal associates of Rādhā such as Lalitā, who have similar emotional sentiments as Rādhā, directed to that particular devotee who is the shelter of one’s cherished rasa with Kṛṣṇa, in this case Rādhā.
If that rati directed to Rādhā or another ideal devotee is equal or less than their rati directed to Kṛṣṇa, that rati directed to Rādhā is called a sañcārī-bhāva (assistant) of the rati directed to Kṛṣṇa. If that rati directed to Rādhā is greater than the person’s rati directed to Kṛṣṇa, constantly increasing with affection, it is called bhāvollāsa to indicate its special nature, though that rati directed to Rādhā is still a sañcārī-bhāva.
This statement has been written here as it is remembered at this point, though it should be included at the end of the topic of sañcārī-bhāvas or vyabhicārī-bhāvas, because it belongs to the same topic.
From Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi:
Affection for her sakhīs:
Even though the hairs of Her body were standing on end as She enjoyed pastimes with Kṛṣṇa on the summit of Govardhana, Rādhā affectionately wiped Lalitā’s face, decorated with beautiful hanging locks of hair. UN, 13.104
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
The affection of the leader for her sakhīs is a vyabhicārī-bhāva. It is said: [here, Śrī Viśvanātha quotes the above verse from Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu] This is the meaning. If the rati directed to a friend is equal or less than that directed to Kṛṣṇa it is a sañcārī-bhāva. That affection for the friend nourishes the rati for Kṛṣṇa. If that affection for the friend is greater than for Kṛṣṇa and is nourished by affection for Him, it is called bhāvollāsa. It is not a sañcārī-bhāva or a sthāyī-bhāva. Rüpa-mañjarī speaks to a sakhī of Lalitā. Rādhā wiped the perspiration from the face of Lalitā. Rādhā has rati for Lalitā. This is a sañcārī-bhāva, nourishing Her rati for Kṛṣṇa.
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Post by niscala on Nov 22, 2013 18:48:27 GMT -5
Thanks for posting such beautiful quotes as a reply. Exactly what the emotions are called is probably not as important as feeding them, and these quotes are wonderful for both. Emotions have been, and are still, minimized and looked down upon in ISKCON, as evidenced in this article: www.dandavats.com/?p=12073#comment-18408Devaki:Infact, I dare say being on the emotional platform makes it impossible to uplift others to the transcendental platform. I posted a reply, (which as Dandavats is heavily moderated, will probably be unsuccessful) After glorifying her many lucid points, I wrote; There is one point I wish to contend however- that emotions can cloud the vision, or make it impossible to raise anyone up to the transcendental platform. This is impersonalist dogma- we can never be free from emotions, and the attempt to do so is artificial and will not last. The soul in its purified state is burning with emotion and desire, inflamed at ever moment! To the extent we inflame our passions with love for the Lord, His associates, and whomsoever has the slightest desire to serve Them, we become qualified to enter the abode of eternally passionately inflamed lovers of the Lord! If the soul embodied in a woman's form is somehow endowed with more emotion, as has been suggested, then she is far better equipped to traverse the path of bhakti- she just must learn to direct all those emotions and desires towards the service of the Lord and if she does so towards His struggling devotees, being equipped with full transcendental knowledge (Bhaktivedanta) she is already performing as a guru, and only ignorant or blind people will not recognize it. Srila Prabhupada has explained many times in his books that emotions can never be extinguished- and gave as an example Hanuman burning with anger over the kidnapping of Sita. In a sense, many Sitas have been abducted- by the illusory energy- as we are all the energies of the Lord and belong with Him. Like Hanuman we should be full of emotion to free them and place them under the shade of His cool lotus feet. I'm afraid that the "female diksa guru" issue is not just femininism versus misogynism, or one set of quotes against another. By this downgrading of the importance of emotions- to the level of seeing them as making it "impossible to raise others to the transcendental platform" , it appears that impersonalist dogma has infiltrated our ranks. Emotions should be encouraged- in the right direction. It is not good to be emotional when there is a material loss- of money, assets, false prestige, reputation, opportunities for sex. But in regard to Krsna and His devotees, we should be unlimitedly so, and be so completely for His pleasure. It is not a dichotomy of "head versus heart" in being a devotee- both need expanding! Only by association with matter, do they become dull- jaded. And if we believe that we shoud be somehow jading our emotions even further, or that they are impediments, then we are not even using our heads properly. |
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Post by niscala on Nov 22, 2013 22:09:41 GMT -5
Just came accross this in UN, page 478:
Experiencing the happiness of prema for Radha
she praises her infinite goodness. She hints at Radha’s powers. “My mind sees Krsna.”
You are right- there is prema for Radha.
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Post by niscala on Nov 24, 2013 6:18:24 GMT -5
How suffering causes enjoyment in prema is described in UN, with an astonishing parallel in the material world! How amazing it is that while describing the topmost esoteric principles of ecstatic love, the acaryas find language and examples even we can relate to.
It is also said, muktià dadäti karhicit sma na bhakti-yogam: the Lord gives liberation but
not even bhäva-bhakti to those who worship him. (SB 5.6.18) These verses show that the
happiness of bhakti is much greater than that of millions of universes. That happiness
which produces heat in the form of suffering is tastier than millions of moons. Thus, how
much more tasty will mahäbhäva be! In the material world, in the presence of heat,
coolness gives happiness. In the presence of coolness, heat gives happiness. Thus if both
are present happiness arises. If one is absent, the other becomes suffering.
Hunger and an object to be eaten, together produce happiness. Without the object to be
eaten, hunger produces suffering. Without hunger, the edible object does not produce
happiness. In rati and other bhävas, even in union, because the anxiety of separation
cannot be completely removed, which prevents the feeling of having enough, the union
produces happiness.
In separation, since the separation has continuous meeting through dreams, or in the
mind because of his sudden appearance through remembrance (sphürti), the separation
becomes filled with happiness. In adhirudha-bhäva however, there is simultaneous
incomparable happiness and suffering caused by union and separation. This produces an
incomparable happiness.
But we do not see simultaneous happiness and distress in Svarga or hell in the material
world. Though one can observe simultaneous happiness and suffering at the beginning of
eating for instance, because this is limited, it cannot be accepted as a rule. In impersonal
liberation, because of the absence of suffering, one experiences happiness. It depends on
suffering however.
Some say however that liberation means complete absence of happiness and suffering.
Thus prema and nothing else is the supreme goal of human life. This is the conclusion.
Actually, the devotees say that prema functions not by seeing one’s own happiness, but by
seeing Krsna’s happiness.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Nov 26, 2013 15:58:37 GMT -5
I just want to add some clarification to my original post regarding prema. All of the Vraja-vasis have prema for Krsna and they also love one another. I wasn't implying that this love for one another isn't prema per se, only that prema is the nature of the pure love that an individual shares reciprocally with Krsna according to their specific relationship. In other words, there is no such thing as prema if Krsna is not the central focus of that love. I haven't read anywhere that this love of the Vraja-vasis for one another is not prema, nor have I read that it is defined as a specific other type of love.
In response to Niscala's last post, I would like to add that the separation experienced in the aprakata-lila (unmanifest pastimes) does not include the separation experienced by the Vraja-vasis in the prakata-lila (manifest pastimes) when Krsna leaves Vraja and moves to Mathura and then Dvaraka. That never happens in aprakata-lila. The separation there is measured in hours, not days and months or years. And as I showed in Chapter 6 of my book in the section on separation, during these periods of short separation there is also union in the form of dreams and short visions (sphurtis).
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 15, 2014 15:01:18 GMT -5
Beautiful thread!! Thanks for that UN section. Now it seems from what Uttama has said above about the apricot leela, that it may not have the same power as the Prakata leela, given that adhirudha mahabhava is experienced so intensely when suffering is present....
"In adhirudha-bhäva however, there is simultaneous incomparable happiness and suffering caused by union and separation. This produces an incomparable happiness.""
So in the spiritual world, given what little separation there is, does a moment still seem like a yuga or more?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 16, 2014 11:45:36 GMT -5
"So in the spiritual world, given what little separation there is, does a moment still seem like a yuga or more?"
Yes, most certainly. The descriptions in Ujjvala-nilamani refer to both lilas, ie: prakata and aprakata. The highest levels of maha-bhava are definitely experienced in aprakata-lila. I don't recall reading anything that indicates such differences in the two lilas. Keep in mind that in the bhauma-lila, Krsna leaves Vraja before reaching His full kaisora age of 15+ years, which is His eternal age in the apraka-lila and which facilitates the full expression of madhurya-lila.
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Post by niscala on Aug 20, 2014 6:37:44 GMT -5
Keep in mind that in the bhauma-lila, Krsna leaves Vraja before reaching His full kaisora age of 15+ years, which is His eternal age in the apraka-lila and which facilitates the full expression of madhurya-lila.
I think he left at about age 10. I am wondering why? Maybe if he were to exhibit his beauty at 16, then the full expression that it stimulates might cause death- I read somewhere that the material body cannot withstand prema. Which begs the question- when the jiva takes birth in bhauma lila, after having attained bhava in his last birth, is it a spiritual or material body that he gets? It would seem it is material birth, as it has a beginning- but he is attaining the form that he meditated upon, so in that respect it would seem that it is the spiritual body. If it is a material body, then how could it please Krsna?
Or is dependent on how much the devotee advanced in his past life? I read also, correct me if I got it wrong, that the gopis who were restrained when Krsna played his flute, left their bodies, they did so because the last vestiges of their impurity was burned up in that fire of separation. That would indicate a material body.
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 20, 2014 18:19:38 GMT -5
Vishvanantha has given his verdict on the question of the gopis leaving their bodies when barred from the rasa dance.. He says there in his tenth canto commentary, that they burned up in the fire of separation, their remnant karma as sadhana siddhas.... not their bodies, because that would have been displeasing to Krishna on this auspicious night of the rasa lila.. they may have been married with children at the time, and so had relations with their husbands.... but it would still point to the possibility that they had somewhat less than a fully spiritual body.... there are levels to it that I am not fully conversant with as yet... like vastu siddhi and such.... Uttama??
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 21, 2014 0:51:46 GMT -5
According to BVT, vastu-siddhi is obtained when one takes birth in bhauma-lila from the womb of a nitya-siddha gopi and obtains their eternal spiritual bodily form and identity in the full context of Vraja-lila. This can only happen when one's subtle body and gross physical body have been permanently dissolved at the end of one's previous life, wherein one has attained bhava and the first stages of prema. Therefore, the body born in bhauma-lila is fully spiritual, as it must be in order to associate directly with Krsna and the other nitya-siddhas. And although bhauma-lila manifests within the material world, it is a complete manifestation of the spiritual realm appearing within the material energy, so technically, one is not taking another birth in the material world.
I'm not sure of the exact situation of those gopis who were restrained from the rasa-lila due to their remaining anarthas, but I have read the section cited by Tarun. VCT does not go into additional detail about their specific condition other than what Tarun mentioned. VCT explains in Raga-vartma-candrika that the material body can only tolerate the first stages of prema which develop after one attains bhava, the seed of prema.
VCT has stated (can't remember where, maybe Ujjvala-nilamani) that none of Krsna's gopis have had conjugal relations with their husbands and thus they have no children of their own, even though we read references to some of them leaving small children behind to be with Krsna. VCT says those are others' children within their households.
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 22, 2014 19:28:08 GMT -5
Here is what I found in VCT's commentary on chapter 29 verse 9 of the tenth canto:
""Other gopis, however, because of not getting the good fortune of associating with Radha and the other nitya siddha gopis, had not achieved the stage of prema, and so their contamination was not completely burned away. They enjoyed intimately with their cowherd husbands and gave birth to children. But a short time later even these gopis developed their purva raga by hankering intensely for the intimate physical association of Krishna - a hankering they acquired by association with the advanced gopis. Becoming worthy recipients of the mercy of the perfected gopis, they assumed spiritual bodies fit to be enjoyed by Krishna.""
And verse ten commentary:
""After enjoying the pleasures of the rasa dance and other pastimes with Krishna, the muni-cari gopis who had participated went back to their homes when the night was over, as did the nitya siddha and other advanced gopis. Now Yogamaya protected these muni-cari gopis from the material association of their husbands. In other words, these gopis became detached from their husbands, sons and daughters, and their love for Krishna increased more and more. Since these gopis were thoroughly immersed in the great ocean of love for Krishna, their breasts dried up so that they could not feed their infants.
Some acharyas conclude that the gopis locked in their homes did not have children. According to them whenever such words as apatya, 'children' are used in verses yet to come, these words refer to the children of co-wives, to adopted children or to nephews and nieces.""
Plenty of evidence in these two commentaries that there was a section of gopis who still had bodies composed of the three gunas, and that they cast these bodies off, and so fully inhabited their spiritual bodies. By casting off, dying is not implied as is strongly contended in the purport. A subtle body I assume is meant.
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Post by niscala on Aug 22, 2014 22:31:13 GMT -5
There is the analogy of an iron rod, placed in a fire, becomes like fire, and even the material body of the pure devotee is honored with the understanding that it has become spiritualized by association with Krsna. Still, we see that material body succumb to old age and death like other material bodies, so from that we can conclude that the iron rod placed in the fire, becomes *like* fire, but not fire itself. Even such a spiritualized material body is not suitable for directly associating with Krsna in reciprocal loving exchanges in Bhauma lila, therefore those gopis had to cast it off.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 23, 2014 16:43:13 GMT -5
Thanks for that update Tarun. That clarifies things for sure.
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 25, 2014 20:00:57 GMT -5
There seems to be some contradiction with the idea that one gets vastu siddhi when taking birth in bhauma lila... Where is the praman for that?? Madhurya Kadambini?? Perplexing!
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