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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 26, 2014 0:02:04 GMT -5
The pramana (evidence) for that comes from BVT in Jaiva-dharma and Harinama-cintamani. However, BVT does not give sastric evidence to support his statements. From HNC:
The coming of the appropriation stage.
When one’s meditation on one’s identity becomes fixed in samādhi, then the stage of full appropriation of that identity comes about. HC, 15.94
The practitioner’s state of being at that time.
At that time, identification with one’s spiritual form entirely overcomes the influence of the material body. After achieving this state, one is at every moment present in that form in Vraja, where he sees the Vṛndāvana forests through that form that he has made his own. HC, 15.95-96
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura’s notes:
In the stage of appropriation, one’s sense of identity with the external material body is abandoned and one’s identification with the spiritual identity and form takes over.
At this stage, one resides constantly in Vraja in one’s original spiritual form. As one is now engaged in serving Śrī Śrī Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in that identity, one experiences the dawning of a great pleasure. As such, one remains absorbed in visions of Vṛndāvana Dhāma, one feels completely fixed in the spiritual identity and has visions of the Divine Couple’s transcendental pastimes as if they had become manifest.
At the time of appropriation, one attains identity perfection; with the disintegration of the subtle body, [one attains] concrete perfection. In the appropriation stage, the fortunate soul attains identity perfection; when the subtle body disintegrates, concrete perfection and full possession. HC, 15.97
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura’s notes:
By worshiping the Holy Name in this way, the devotee inevitably meets Lord Kṛṣṇa face to face. Then, when his gross body suddenly dies by the Lord’s will, the subtle material body is also destroyed. In other words, with the death of the gross body made of five elements, the subtle material body of mind, intelligence and false ego also falls away. At this point, the soul’s pure spiritual form is manifested without any coverings and one can serve the Divine Couple in the spiritual world. Identity perfection is svarūpa-siddhi, concrete perfection is vastu-siddhi, full possession is sampatti-daśā.
From JD:
Gopala Guru Gosvami: At the stage of bhāvāpana (svarüpa-siddhi), the faculty of transcendental vision appears, and at that time, the sādhaka can have darśana of his sakhī, and also yütheśvarī Śrīmatī Rādhikā. Even after having darśana of Golokanātha Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the sādhaka’s realization is not steady at all times until he achieves the stage of sampatti-daśā (vastu-siddhi), in which his gross and subtle bodies are destroyed. In bhāvāpana-daśā, the pure jīva has full command over the inert gross and subtle bodies.
However, the secondary result of sampatti-daśā, the stage in which Kṛṣṇa’s mercy is fully manifested, is that the connection of the jīva with this mundane world is completely cut off. Bhāvāpana-daśā is called svarüpa-siddhi, and in sampatti-daśā one attains vastu-siddhi. JD, Chapter 40, pages 863-864
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Post by niscala on Aug 26, 2014 8:01:24 GMT -5
Beautiful and very inspiring quotes, thank you Uttamasloka, you are certainly living up to your namesake!
Another issue, is about whether prema is inherent in the jiva- there seems to be a lot of evidence that it is not- as it is described as a gift from the swarupa sakti. That makes sense as you don't see any of prema's symptoms here in the material world.
But it seems to me that the ray of prema called bhava may be present even in neophyte devotees and conditioned souls- could it be present and just covered/misdirected? My reasoning is as follows.
Regarding conditioned souls: 1. Rati is another name for bhava 2. The conditioned souls have rati for sense objects (not sure where the relevant quote is) 3. Therefore the conditioned souls have misdirected bhava.
Regarding sadhakas: 1. The sastra recommend six loving exchanges between devotees. 2. This is an instruction meant for all classes of devotees. 3. Love means prema, and therefore bhava is a ray of love. 4. Prema can be between devotees, but this is not possible in the material body, which only leaves the possibility: There can be bhava or a ray of prema between devotees, even in this material world.
On the other hand, how can one have bhava at all before one has reached asakti? But then, what is it that devotees have for each other if it is not love? Are we supposed to be cynical and say there is no love at all until we have transcended asakti? Is the instruction to have six loving exchanges only for those at bhava? And for conditioned souls, how can they have rati for sense objects- if rati for anything does not happen until after asakti?
For these reasons, I am tending to think that there is some form of covered or misdirected rati or bhava inherent in the conditioned soul, otherwise I don't know how to answer these questions, but that may be just my confusion about the tattva, as well.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 26, 2014 23:35:26 GMT -5
<Beautiful and very inspiring quotes, thank you Uttamasloka, you are certainly living up to your namesake!>
Thanks!
<Regarding conditioned souls: 1. Rati is another name for bhava 2. The conditioned souls have rati for sense objects (not sure where the relevant quote is) 3. Therefore the conditioned souls have misdirected bhava.>
Bhava is a term used very broadly and in the context of being a ray of prema it indicates that one has attained that preliminary stage of perfection. Although the acaryas use the terms rati and bhava interchangeably, rati is generally used to indicate a specific type of love in the context of one’s relationship, which then develops into that type of prema and then becomes an ingredient in the experience of rasa. Here is a list of the types of rati for each type of rasa:
Dasya-rasa - priti-rati Sakhya-rasa - sakhya-rati Vatsalya-rasa - vatsala-rati Madhurya-rasa - madhura-rati
In Jaiva-dharma, BVT described the conditioned souls as having material rati:
Vrajanātha: What is the difference between viṣaya-rati and kṛṣṇa-rati?
Gopala Guru Gosvāmī: Viṣaya-rati is mundane, whereas kṛṣṇa-rati is transcendental. In mundane rati, there is pleasure in meeting and extreme distress in separation. However, when bhaktas who love Bhagavān achieve kṛṣṇa-rati, it turns into rasa and gives rise to the pleasure of union. At the time of separation (vipralambha), that very rati assumes the form of an extremely wonderful and astonishing whirlpool of joy (ānanda-vivarta). JD, Chapter 28, page 628
When it is said that conditioned souls have material rati, it is not spiritual rati that is simply covered by conditioning. It is material in the same way that there is material greed (lobha) and spiritual greed, which are two different things.
Therefore, the conditioned souls do not have covered bhava inherent in their svarupa. Bhava, rati and prema are all elements of the svarupa-sakti and they arise or appear within one’s heart and mind by the potency and mercy of the hladini and sandini saktis as described in BRS in the chapter on Bhava-bhakti.
<Regarding sadhakas: 4. Prema can be between devotees, but this is not possible in the material body, which only leaves the possibility: There can be bhava or a ray of prema between devotees, even in this material world.
On the other hand, how can one have bhava at all before one has reached asakti? But then, what is it that devotees have for each other if it is not love? Are we supposed to be cynical and say there is no love at all until we have transcended asakti? Is the instruction to have six loving exchanges only for those at bhava? And for conditioned souls, how can they have rati for sense objects- if rati for anything does not happen until after asakti?>
As sadhakas, we endeavor to dovetail all of our material propensities in service which are favorable to Krsna. We offer material objects to Krsna like bhoga and it becomes spiritualized as prasadam. So when we feel and express loving emotions towards Krsna, guru and the devotees, it also becomes spiritualized by such offerings. My understanding is that technically that isn’t bhava per se. It may be considered glimpses of spiritual bhavas, ie: emotions, in that context of the term bhava, but not in the context of the stage of bhava as a ray of prema.
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Post by niscala on Aug 27, 2014 8:15:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification. Could we say that just as there is a propensity towards a certain rasa inherent in the jiva, there is also the propensity to love, or a propensity for prema?
Viewing it this way, the propensity to love, when covered, being directed towards sense objects, is what we call lust, and when uncovered is manifest in loving dealings such as those between devotees. This evokes in due course, the mercy of the svarupa sakti, through which divine love is bestowed, thus part of one's sadhana is to have these loving exchanges between us. They also seem relevant when one considers that at the end of the southern section of BRS, Rupa G writes that according to the audience's capacity for sympathy and experience with the feelings expressed by the characters, they can experience the bhavas of the Vrajabasis thus portrayed- an unsympathetic heart cannot do so. And there is so much indication that bhakti requires a soft heart, which means a preliminary kind of love or at least capacity for it.
I find it hard to accept that there is absolutely no love in the material world, only lust, as such a cynical attitude, preached by some devotees, could have contributed to the neglect of children etc.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 27, 2014 9:44:07 GMT -5
The potentiality for love is certainly there as part of the jiva's svarupa and that is covered by the material energy. The seed of bhakti given by Sri Guru unlocks that potential so to speak and gives it the proper focus. Anything transcendental such as dramas, books, chanting, etc has the potency to touch the jiva at a spiritual level and contribute to their spiritual awakening and purification.
As is common, many devotees misunderstand the import of the statement that there is no love in this world, only lust. I've even heard about devotees telling children that it is maya to feel and show love for their parents and vice versa. This is absurdly ignorant and obviously the mentality of very foolish neophytes and fanatics. Genuine Vaisnavas are very kind and "loving" in their dealings with others even if they are not at the stage of bhava. That is part of the description of madhyama devotees.
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Post by niscala on Aug 28, 2014 1:15:15 GMT -5
Children should be loved, of course, and if everything, including our relationships here, is a reflection of what is there, then true motherly love is not really a distortion of the love in the spiritual world, as the right sentiment is there, but as it is based on the bodily concept, which is an illusion, it is like an undistorted reflection on a calm lake.
The bodily conception, which nurtures the affection, is the concept that this child is mine, whereas in actuality neither his body nor soul belongs to us- the body is produced by material nature and will eventually dissolve again and return to her in due course. The soul is Krsna's, and only He can ultimately protect and also ultimately love and give pleasure to the infant.
But definitely the sentiment, if not misshaped by personal motivation- as in good mothering- is a good one. Where would we be without mothers? Similarly we need good platonic friendships. Reflections can also be beautiful and they indicate the real thing, even if they are themselves not real in the sense that they are based on an illusion. Certainly mothering and friendships which aim to help the child or friend love Krsna and are based on that eternal relationship, which is reality, are not false at all.
However, neither can they be classified as prema- not exactly because they are not directed directly to Krsna- because in Vraja there is prema felt towards Radha and one's group leader. They are not in the category of prema, because prema is not to be found in the material world, as no one can sustain their material bodies under its influence. It is unlimited love:
Sanatan Goswami: Goloka’s Lord and its residents care for one another as do people of the material world, yet their prema transcends the limits of mundane love.
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