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Post by niscala on Sept 18, 2013 0:47:14 GMT -5
I first posted this in the general section, then realised you preferred it here, so you can delete that one.
THE JIVA'S ORIGIN -AND THE RIGHTNESS OF WRONGNESS
In regard to the jiva's origin, those that support the idea that the jiva fell from participation in Krsna's pastimes in the spiritual world, quote only Srila Prabhupada, whereas those who support that the jiva does not fall at any time from such a position, give as testimony, evidence from both Srila Prabhupada and the sastra written by previous acaryas, as well as Krsna Himself, of course, Who gives such reassurance in the Gita.
Those in the first category argue that though there are conflicting statements from Srila Prabhupada, he much more often said that we were once with Krsna and have just forgotten the relationship, and now need to revive it. This is a very attractive proposition, as is the proposition “Just chant, dance and take prasadam, and your life will be perfect!” Both contradict sastra, yet are very attractive for the conditioned souls, especially in the West, particularly in the 60's ,when a carefree life free of worries, free food, and dancing and singing with abandon, were the way to go. If they were told anything at all about the numerous anarthas, illusions, pitfalls, weaknesses of heart, various struggles and aparadhas that can besiege one on the path of bhakti, making one feel helpless, hopeless, torn apart like a riven cloud, and with no standing in any sphere, who would have joined?
Similarly, who would have joined if the goal of the process is presented as entering a place where we have never been before--- and hopefully being accepted by, and getting on with, everyone in it? Doubts would certainly assail one, in the same way they do when anticipating entering any assembly as a complete stranger- I may feel out of place! We feel this way even among people unknown to us, yet like us in so many ways. What to speak of the exalted residents of Goloka?
In addition, the tendency of the conditioned soul is to gravitate to that which is familiar. There is a strong calling of the ex-patriot to return to his roots, his motherland. Much has been written about this- such longing is the stuff of poetry. There is never a longing to that which is unfamiliar and unknown. Knowing this, the acarya, Srila Prabhupada, though writing “The conclusion is that no one falls from Vaikuntha” also assured his disciples “Yes, you were there. It is your home. Now just return there!”
This was absolutely necessary for westerners, who had no prior knowledge of Krsna. It is possible for a person born in a family of vaisnavas, playing with Krsna dolls as a child, to feel like being with Krsna is his place, his meaning, his fulfillment. Even if he hasn't been with Krsna in some past life, he has had some sort of experience in this one. Lack of familiarity may lead, and often does lead, to a feeling of estrangement and disconnection. It is hardly an encouragement to become part of something, and totally dedicate one's life to it. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada was trying to evoke in us, a sense of belonging, by assurances of prior participation.
Actually we do belong there, even though we have not been there before, in the same way that a drop of water in a high place belongs in the ocean, or a baby bird belongs in the air. We are part and parcel of Krsna and belong only in one place- His eternal abode. There can be a sense of belonging, of going to a home that we have never been before, if our nature is to live in it. Every aspect of the body of a baby bird is designed for flight (even the bones are hollow, to facilitate weightlessness). It is just, as yet, undeveloped. When the time is right, it knows that it belongs in the air and that it was made for flight. Similarly, we instinctively gravitate to that which is loving, beautiful, eternal, youthful, without ignorance, and full of variety, because without knowing it even, it is our nature.
There is a sense of loyalty in this debate as well. Those very loyal to Srila Prabhupada can't bear the thought that he might have given them the wrong information. To this end, there have been opinions presented that he didn't actually do so- we were with Krsna- but not in the sense of residing in the spiritual world, rather, in the sense that we are always with Krsna and just all the time forget it.
Be that as it may, let us consider a new take. Just say, he was actually giving us the wrong information, just to attract us. This is wholly appropriate for an acarya. In his commentary to Rupa Goswami's Ujjvala Nilamani, Jiva Goswami has done exactly the same thing. Knowing that many of his followers were wholly opposed to the idea of Krsna having paramour love, seeing it as immoral, he argued that there is no such love in the spiritual world. There, Krsna is married eternally to the gopis. Only when He comes to this material world, He creates an illusion of paramour love, by creating illusory bodies of husbands. Such illusion is temporary, and there is only svakiya, or married love, in the spiritual abode.
Visvanatha Chakravati Thakura, in his commentary, showed how Jiva had given the wrong information to appease his followers, and proved conclusively the eternal existence of parakiya bhava as a cornerstone tennet of Gaudiya vaisnava siddhanta, accepted as such even to this day.
Jiva's followers, some of them, were staunch moralists, who could not abide the thought of Krsna loving other's wives. Srila Prabhupada's followers, primarily hippies, in their concept of free love, had no such qualms, so Srila Prabhupada did not change this. There was no need to. Jiva's followers could not bear the thought of taking part in pastimes that were to them, immoral. Srila Prabhupada's followers, as westerners, had no problem with immorality- their problem was with unfamiliarity. So, like Jiva, he changed some aspect of the siddhanta.
He changed a minor aspect only of the siddhanta- the origin of the jiva. In comparison, Jiva Goswami changed a very major aspect- the very cornerstone of Chaitanya's teachings.That the jiva's origin is a minor issue, not worth worrying about, was explained by Srila Prabhupada “Don't worry about where you came from. If you find yourself drowning in the ocean, don't try to figure out how you got there. Just find a lifeboat”
Such a step taken by Srila Prabhupada was in pursuance of the example set by Jiva Goswami- it was following in the footsteps of the previous acaryas, by preaching according to time, place and circumstance. We are perfectly justified in presenting his version of the origin of the jiva to the public, who are similarly unfamiliar with Krsna. To do otherwise, and fanatically cleave to precision in all respects, would be to fail to follow in his footsteps.
But as Jiva certainly knew the real conclusion of the vaisnava siddhanta, so should we, and it is clear that all the acaryas concur that no one falls from Vaikuntha, what to speak of Goloka. The residents of Vaikuntha, what to speak of Goloka, are all eternally liberated souls- nitya siddha.
Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura found it necessary to write purports to Jiva Goswami's purports, finding fault with them yet finding them to be faultless and completely justified. Srila Prabhupada also once said “In the future, there will be purports written to my purports” indicating that, as in the past, the precise siddhanta may again be established, devoid of any consideration of time, place and circumstance. Both pure siddhanta, with consideration of time place and circumstance, and siddhanta free from all considerations of the same, are necessary- the former for a time, and the latter for all time.
Therefore the former needs to be taken advantage of appropriately, by responsible preachers, while the latter needs to be preserved for future reference, where time, place and circumstance may have changed and rendered the need for the former, redundant, in due course.
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Post by jiva34 on Sept 21, 2013 20:22:15 GMT -5
Thank you, prabhu. For the time and thought in your post. You raised some interesting points about preaching in time, place and circumstance. Devotional service is absolute just as Krishna is absolute. The devotee accepts everything favorable for devotional service and rejects everything unfavorable. It is dynamic and there is nothing cut and dry or static about devotional service. There are some issues still. I present these not in a challenging way. I desire from the very core of my heart to have realization on these. If you have some insight I am all ears. 1. Why does Krishna have a dark side at all? The illusory energy. He is the Supreme Enjoyer why have something that He doesn't find enjoyable? If there is an element of enjoyment there what is it? 2. If the marginal energy, the jiva's are eternal does that mean the jiva has been in the material energy forever and only comes out once? If so then the spiritual body that is formed has a beginning. Anything that has a beginning also has an end. So the spiritual body would not be eternal. 3. Jaya and Vijaya fell from the spiritual sky due to offending Vaisnavas, underlying this falldown was the desire of Lord Vishnu to enjoy fighting with demons. 4. The gross and subtle bodies are everywhere referred to as a covering for spirit soul. Like an outer garment. That means there is form there already for the spirit soul it is just covered like with dirt. 5. Revive our Krishna consciousness is seen everywhere in the literature. 6. If you are familiar with the story about the gopa who wanted to see what the material energy was like. Krishna knowing the gopa's heart arranged for him that while retrieving water from the river for Krishna became attracted to his own reflection in the water and fell into material world. In a life threatening situation he remembered Krishna and found himself on the bank of the river with the water in hand for Krishna and the whole sojourn in the material world was like nothing more than a momentary daydream. Why give this very vivid illustration? Thank you for your time and consideration. Hare Krishna. Read more: raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=37&page=1#ixzz2fa2U2Rzl
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Post by jiva34 on Sept 21, 2013 20:24:05 GMT -5
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Post by niscala on Sept 21, 2013 21:25:10 GMT -5
Jiva, I am getting an ad for Subaru posted with your name on it. I am not sure if this forum is being hit with spam ads or not. Does anyone else see it?
Here is my attempt to answer your questions, please everyone correct and improve iupon it, as they see fit.
1. Why does Krishna have a dark side at all? The illusory energy. He is the Supreme Enjoyer why have something that He doesn't find enjoyable? If there is an element of enjoyment there what is it?
He enjoys seeing the jivas develop their love for Him, even here, maybe especially here. That is the purpose of the material world- to frustrate the jiva's desire to enjoy separately from Him, so that the Lord can enact His loving pastimes with them, of bringing them to their eternal constitutional position of ecstatic loving service.
2. If the marginal energy, the jiva's are eternal does that mean the jiva has been in the material energy forever and only comes out once? If so then the spiritual body that is formed has a beginning. Anything that has a beginning also has an end. So the spiritual body would not be eternal.
Not everything that has a beginning has an end. In sadhana siddha, the spiritual body is developed and never ends, and perfection (siddha) has a starting point, but no end point. This is possible because there is no limit to the number of souls in Vaikuntha. Souls can constantly enter there from this realm and never fall down. Infinity plus a trillion is still infinity.
BVT explains in Jaiva Dharma that the souls entrapment in maya or eternal conditioning does not mean eternal suffering. He made the decision not to serve the Lord outside of material time, so in that respect, a date cannot be put on his entering conditioning. But there was never a time when he was nitya siddha- as a nitya siddha never falls down. That is unarguable. And only nitya siddhas completely under the protection of the internal potency reside in Vaikuntha. So, in that state, wherein that choice was made, he was neither in the material world, nor in a Vaikuntha loka. That only leaves the brahmajyoti. As the brahmajyoti is comprised of minute spiritual sparks of Krsna's energy, and as the jiva is exactly that, then it is a reasonable conclusion. Does anyone have a reference for that?
3. Jaya and Vijaya fell from the spiritual sky due to offending Vaisnavas, underlying this falldown was the desire of Lord Vishnu to enjoy fighting with demons.
Yes, in in that purport, Srila Prabhupada writes that "The conclusion is that no one falls from Vaikuntha as it is the eternal abode". He explains that they never became eternally conditioned (nitya baddha) After 3 births of pastimes with the Lord, as His so-called enemy, they returned to their eternal service.
4. The gross and subtle bodies are everywhere referred to as a covering for spirit soul. Like an outer garment. That means there is form there already for the spirit soul it is just covered like with dirt.
As I understand it, the form is there, in embryonic status. It is developed through inner meditation.
5. Revive our Krishna consciousness is seen everywhere in the literature.
Yes, because it is our constitution, and as such, it can never be broken. A baby bird has a connection with air, with flight. It is designed for it, even though it hasn't flown before. We are, as Krsna's parts and parcels, constitutionally His servants. But that consciousness must be revived or ignited. This word "revive" can also mean that many times in the past, even in the material world, we were conscious of being Krsna's servants, and again became ensnared by maya, and became again covered. That can happen, again and again. And unless one develops love for the Lord and His associates, it will happen again and again. I don't think ritualistic performance of the rules of bhakti is much protection.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 22, 2013 14:16:27 GMT -5
Jiva prabhu: I don't have time right now to answer your points individually, but I can recommend that you read BVT's Jaiva-dharma, chapters 15 (Jiva-tattva) & 16 (and 17 and 18 if you are inclined). In those chapters, BVT answers your questions and more. It is a complex subject because it is outside of the purview of our limited sensory experiences in this material world, eg: jivas having no beginning and no end, etc.
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Post by amalapurana on Dec 8, 2013 11:27:28 GMT -5
Very interesting questions from Jiva34 Prabhu and answers from Niscala Prabhu!
The origin of the soul and then the near endless suffering engendered by the illusory energy of the Lord as the jiva tries, and always fails, to be the enjoyer, so many only partially answered question.
I expressed similar mild philiosophical frustration to Uttamasloka Prabhu a few months back through private emails, with questions along the line of what theologians often refer to as 'the problem with evil'.
How did we end up in this pickle and why?
The punishment delivered to the conditioned soul seems to be disproportionate to the sins commited if the desire to attempt enjoying material nature is innate to the jiva in the first place.
Also the absence of recollection of past sins commited and subsequent inability to correlate sins and punishment, through countless past lives in countless species, extends the agony suffered by the conditionned soul to what appears an unecessary eternity. The jiva is thus deprived of a key motivating factor to rehabilitation. After all, how could the jiva be held responsible for anything, but still suffer incommensurably, if most of the trajectory through the material world is mainly spent in states of very primitive consciousness. Of course, it all ends well and at the end of our journey of mostly torment from a jiva spark in the Brahmajyoti to prema in Vaikhunta, we will hardly remember any of it, if anything at all.
True that ultimately, one does not need to know any of this. The house in on fire and we are being shown the exit door. It should be enough since once we have escaped, the origin and cause of the fire will be of little significance after all.
I read most of Jaiva Dharma and found some answers but not all.
Those are still legitimate quieries praying for more clarification, for ourselves and also for other spiritual seekers we try to guide on the devotional path.
amala purana das
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Post by niscala on Dec 9, 2013 7:59:11 GMT -5
Hi Amalapurana- this is a subject that has kept me preoccupied with for a long time. Here's my take so far. The problem with "the problem with evil" is how we define "evil" If it is interim suffering, with an-always good outcome, then it is not evil- or forcing a kid to do homework, or lancing a boil would be evil. This is most certainly the case with material existence, except that unlike homework or the lanced boil, the outcome is always good. It frees the soul from the results of cruel deeds, which keep him far from his real nature. Through suffering one learns empathy, by comparison with oneself, and in doing so, one moves out of narcissism. In events like natural disasters, we see again and again, the normal reaction is to band together and reduce suffering by comraderie, and in doing so, one experiences a happiness that transcends the event. The experience of the soldiers at war in the trenches or the hell-fields of Afghanisthan, makes them want to experience it again- when interviewed why they want to go back, they say it is for the comraderie. In suffering we also get a sense that this is not where we are meant to be- and begin philosophical inquiry into the problems of life. In enjoyment, we tend to be self-absorbed and forget that everything is temporary. Suffering is a catalyst for spiritual development, therefore, in these two ways- freeing us from the reactions of cruelty, and developing a sense of empathy and comraderie. Both are necessary if our eventual liberation is not impersonal- but full of the extremely loving and soft-hearted interactions prevalent in Vraja.
>>The punishment delivered to the conditioned soul seems to be disproportionate to the sins commited if the desire to attempt enjoying material nature is innate to the jiva in the first place.
The attempt to enjoy material nature does not result in punishment- it is how one does so. If in enjoying, for example, food, one disregards the huge amount of suffering that, for example, caged chickens undergo to produce one's chosen food of eggs, or chicken meat, then one is enjoying at the cost of someone else's suffering. Action is the mode of darkness leads to bad karmic reaction- suffering. Action in the mode of goodness, happiness. So, with all the pain inflicted on the various animal species by human beings- is it really disproportionate? One would expect a lot more suffering, actually. There are no people being stuffed into cages, at least not in the numbers chickens are. So how to account for the missing bad karma (dark matter) in the universe? Some humans come back as animals to suffer what they put the animals through. But even that suffering is not evil- as explained above. Since it is true that our innate nature is to enjoy, and since we all have an innate sense of empathy, we should not be putting the lower species into hell- but we do- and for that we have to suffer- which we benefit from, in the long run. So the set-up is not evil- but some of our choices are.
The absolutely wrong application of this is to think that the suffering of others is "just their karma" When Maharaja Pariksit saw the cow Bhumi being attacked, he was angry, even though she said "Look at it this way- it is just my karma" From this interaction between two great devotees, we can see how and when the knowledge of karma should be applied.
>>Also the absence of recollection of past sins commited and subsequent inability to correlate sins and punishment, through countless past lives in countless species, extends the agony suffered by the conditionned soul to what appears an unecessary eternity.
I've also thought a lot about this one. You recommend a world where every time one suffered, one knew exactly the activity which caused the suffering, through remembrance. Then one would learn not to do that activity and thereby not suffer. That is much like training a dog, isn't it? When he does the wrong thing, he gets a punishment, and if he does the right thing, he gets a reward. Eventually he does all the right things, and gets all the rewards. The trouble is, you have only taught him obedience, not love. His motivation is fully for his own enjoyment- not to please you (even if he wags his tail) Similarly, for love or concern for the welfare of others to occur, there has to be a sense of injustice. "It just seems so wrong that innocent kids end up with leukemia- lets try to help them. I don't know if helping them will bring me pleasure- because when I am enjoying pleasure, I can't remember what I did in the past that gave me this good karma. I want to help them, simply because they need it" That is causeless love. If I remembered every time I enjoyed, that it was because I helped this person or that animal, reducing their suffering in some way, then my motivation for doing good would be selfish- it would preclude selflessness. It would preclude selfless love. The highest perfection of life is to reach a level of love so intense that if my suffering brings on my beloveds happiness, then let me suffer. This is Radha's love in relation to Krsna. This material world is to help us evolve to that point, not become "good doggies"
>>After all, how could the jiva be held responsible for anything, but still suffer incommensurably, if most of the trajectory through the material world is mainly spent in states of very primitive consciousness.
Those very primitive states don't suffer. Most of them don't even have a brain or central nervous system. These are necessary to experience pain. They are simply evolving, thats all. In evolved animal life they can suffer. When they do, it is to be understood as coming from a time when they were humans, acting cruelly. But even then- is there that much suffering? I see birds, ducks, and other wildlife spending an enviable part of their life enjoying. Even when hit by a truck, the central nervous system goes into shock and unconsciousness. In terminal illness, the body produces its own morphine equivalent. We question only the misery, not the happiness- strive to "correct" the "injustice" and in doing so, become closer to our spiritual nature.
I know I am waffling on and repeating myself,and this is not a topic in the book- but I've wanted to discuss this with someone for a long time. Does what I am saying make sense? It makes complete sense to me- but I am concerned I may not be making sense to others. If its inappropriate for the forum, we can continue via email.
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Post by amalapurana on Dec 9, 2013 8:56:08 GMT -5
Many thanks Niscala. You have provided clues that together help reconcile many philosophical loose ends. Uttamasloka's book has a chapter on the Origin of the Jiva. You are right that the discussion in this thread is veering off a bit but in my opinion it ties well to the Origin of the Jiva: what happens then from our origin until our first steps on bhakti marg and why? In my modest opinion, it seems relevant enough, but you are right it would be for our kind host to determine.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 9, 2013 16:31:51 GMT -5
I've posted the excerpt from Chapter 1 in my book regarding whether or not the jivas fell from the lila. This thread is an extension of that discussion, so let it take its own course here as it appears to be doing. It's somewhat related to the topic, and even if it is a bit of a tangent it covers topics that are of interest to many. Go ahead and continue to explore these ideas.
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Post by niscala on Dec 9, 2013 21:43:54 GMT -5
The "problem of evil" is also, I think, central to fueling the controversy, and possibly if we resolve it, it make take much of the heat- and emotional intensity- out of the debate. Devotees argue that if Krsna creates some souls deficient in prema, then He is ultimately the cause of our suffering. In the other scenario, the soul is fully to blame- I was there, I chose to leave, and all this misery is my responsibility. This sits well with a soul trying to develop love for Krsna, which is probably why Srila Prabhupada preached it so much.
Inherent in such a thought, however, is that the conviction that the experience of misery is a bad thing. It is only bad, if the purpose of us being here is to enjoy. If however, the enjoyment propensity is inherent in the soul why would such a place need to exist? Knowing that the ultimate goal of life is completely selfless love, we can suppose that the purpose of being here is to develop that love. If we examine the path of the souls evolution, we can see it is an evolution of the ability to love- to put others welfare before our own. In very primitive species, such as worms and fish, offspring are born and thrive without any need for care by their parents. Reptiles and amphibians have some level of care- such as laying their eggs under a heap of leaves. Then there are the mammals, where the care must continue even after birth. With each progressive birth as a mammal, more care is needed for the infants. Finally the human beings require care the most- no other species requires it for such a large percentage of their lives and in such complex and unpredictable ways, that involve psychological as well as physical involvement by the parents. This is all driven on by the propensity to enjoy- by taking care and nurturing another living thing, more joy is experienced than a so-called carefree life- or why would people freely do it? In rendering such care, even at the animal level, the parents strive to reduce the infant's suffering and bring him happiness, and when they see him enjoying, they enjoy. Conversely, when they see him suffering, they suffer, and so they strive to rectify the situation. They take all this on board willingly, as an expression of love- even though through empathy they suffer. Philanthropists do it as well in a more extended manner. So, a certain softness of heart is being cultivated by mother nature in her offspring- just by the way enjoyment is inextricably bound up with love- so much so, that it transcends all suffering.
When the free will is misused, and people act cruelly, they experience the reaction of misery inasmuch as they have distanced themselves from their true nature. Sometimes such intensely suffering souls come into contact with the Lord's representative, either through scripture or in person, and they take full shelter, having experienced enough suffering to be convinced that this is not a place where they want to stay. Inquiring about the process to escape, they find it is through something that is not foreign to them, but very familiar- that which they have been doing for countless births, now directed towards a lover, son or friend who is able to reciprocate in a way that leaves them thrilled to bits, their thrill ever increasing at every moment and being experienced in ever-new and enthralling ways. At that point they feel that even a moment of seeing Him, what to speak of being embraced by Him is worth the suffering of their material sojourn trillions of times over.
My “Diamond Princess” I became convinced of this fact through my “Diamond Princess” I used to drive a taxi and one day picked up a young lady, whom I am thoroughly convinced was sent to me by Krsna. The ride was long, and we got onto the subject of her life, which she described in detail. I won't go into the details except to say that it was one of abject misery as a child, leading up to an extremely abusive relationship, with death threats hanging over her head every time she tried to escape and many attempts at suicide. I could not conceive of a more miserable sojourn through unrelenting torture at every level- physical, psychological and so on. But the worst was yet to come. She got pregnant to this man- if he can be called that- and one day woke up in agony. When she arrived at the hospital, she was assumed to be in labor but as she had no contractions, she was left unattended in a room, where she underwent severe internal hemorrhaging. Later a doctor told her that this was the most excruciating way to die. She was brain dead for some time, and later revived. She had an experience of being as she called it “embraced by God' during that time, a sensation so intense and full of boundless ecstasy that all the miseries of her life, she would experience millions of times over, just to feel it again. By this time I had long pulled over the taxi and was in tears, looking at her. She looked into my eyes and said emphatically “I really mean it, you have no idea- words cannot come even close to describing it!” She followed up this crescendo with the aftermath- yes she did have contact with this sadistic partner- and could find only love and compassion for him in her heart- in fact she felt flooded by it. He had also been transformed- due to awe and wonder at seeing her so forgiving. He now respects her and at her request, keeps as a friend living separately. I asked this extraordinary passenger if we could keep in touch and she gave me her email address- “The Diamond Princess”. Very appropriate, diamonds not only reflect light, they are formed from dark dull carbon, under intense pressure. She never responded to my emails- I guess godsends are not obliged to do so.
Anyway, this is what we are all headed for, without exception. We can be the ultimate masochists of ourselves and sentence ourselves to be bereft of His embrace- for eternity if we so desire- or not waste a moment. Returning to our discussion about who is to blame for our misery? Considering the first argument, it is like saying “Who's to blame for schools?” We are being schooled in love...the outcome is better than any school can possibly give, and can be experienced in part, before full graduation. Regarding wisdom from the princess, all misery is insignificant. Thus, suffering is both insignificant in the ultimate sense and clearly designed for a purpose in the meantime- to help us develop love through the everyday experience of living here and perceiving the experience of suffering (empathy) to be more joyful than happiness without it.
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Post by amalapurana on Dec 10, 2013 9:18:30 GMT -5
You are right that the old Epicurian connendrum of the 'problem with evil' seems to often show up in one variance or another even in vaisnavas discussion, although vedic philosophy definitely provides way more answers than any other known to man.
I used to read the lives of Christian saints and mystics and I now marvel at how, with such weak philosophical baggage to begin with, a number of them could reach such heights of beatitude. They certainly did not fall for the 'poor me' victim complex and blame others and God for all their many trials and tribulations. Even without the benefit of understanding karma and reincarnation, they would still manage to shine like diamonds, bursting with love and compassion although most of their contemporaries chose to, or could only, vegetate in their raw carbon form and condition.
The notion of 'old souls' (those having achieved sufficient spiritual maturity) is key, I believe, to resolving the 'problem with evil'. Through countless lifetimes of trials and errors, we subconsciously and gradually fine-tune our consciousness and qualify to hear from and understand transcendental topics as delivered to us by Guru, Sastra and Sadhus. There is no true evil in the end, simply a perfect purification system designed by Krishna for the the Jiva's maturation.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 10, 2013 16:40:25 GMT -5
Here are a few thoughts to consider. Everything comes from God, including evil. God has the potential for full evil, but He also is supremely good and does not allow the evil tendencies to manifest in His personal dealings. We are parts of God, so we have the same tendencies minutely. God sets up the material world to allow jivas to exhibit the full scope of their tendencies, including evil, and the mechanism of karma equitably balances the good and evil according to each individual's actions.
Does God ever allow any living beings to be separate from Him and do whatever they want in pursuance of their minute independent free will? Yes. That is material existence. So God allows evil, but He also makes sure everyone accepts the consequences accordingly for their actions, so it all balances out in the end. It's harsh but fair.
And God stays with every single jiva from beginning to end, fully experiencing every single second of their existences, without being affected of course. And all simultaneously. Think about that for minute. God is fully aware of every jiva's experiences from moment to moment in every universe. What a pastime that is! He hasn't abandoned us here alone. We are never truly separated from Him, only unaware of His immediate presence within our hearts.
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Post by niscala on Dec 10, 2013 22:15:33 GMT -5
>>He hasn't abandoned us here alone. We are never truly separated from Him, only unaware of His immediate presence within our hearts.
That's the other essential argument, of course. There is really no question of "blaming" God, even if He did not create us with prema. The material world is a school to develop the soul towards prema, and the teacher is always in attendance- no holidays! Its not just the lady in the taxi who has described the experience after death to be so blissful that all the experience leading up to death is insignificant- it is the common thread in near-death-experiences. The Supersoul accompanies the soul in-between bodies, and it seems during that time, the soul is aware of his presence and gets a taste of bliss of being with Him, a few seconds of which, more than compensates for any suffering experienced in their life- according to the testimonies. So there is no question of blame- when something is all-good. Yet despite the Supersoul's encouragement, and the guidance of sastra and saints, if the soul wants to do evil, he can- and the result is sorrow- which in turn, purifies- so even the result of that is good. The happiness we encounter is his kindness, and the sorrow, also his kindness, in due course.
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Post by amalapurana on Dec 11, 2013 9:09:18 GMT -5
>>God is fully aware of every jiva's experiences from moment to moment in every universe. What a pastime that is! He hasn't abandoned us here alone. We are never truly separated from Him, only unaware of His immediate presence within our hearts.<<
What a beautiful image!
>>The material world is a school to develop the soul towards prema, and the teacher is always in attendance- no holidays!<<
That adds to it so nicely.
There is no doubt that this material world is indeed some sort of reform school where a tougher version of God's love is applied and is gradually guiding us towards spritual perfection. Nothing short of absolute purity in each and every Jiva will satisfy Krishna.
One could of course again argue: 'what is the purpose of the exercise?' since God in His omnipotency and magnanimity could have easily designed a system by which from the onset, while emerging from blissful stupor in the Brahmajyoti, the Jiva would right there and then be tapped by kripa - krishna's or Guru's mercy without the need to enter the samsara.
Krishna is certainly capable to deliver instantaneous prema to all Jivas at any given time. Yet, He chooses not to.
Then enters the essential ingredient of 'free will'. Krishna enjoys His pastimes with His nitya-siddha devotees but He also very much enjoys pure love coming from another class of devotees, those who after a long journey in this very hostile material world choose to make the best of it and take all the necessary steps towards perfection with all the help He always makes available to us in His supreme kindness.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 11, 2013 11:00:05 GMT -5
As my friend and Godbrother, Jamadagneya prabhu (Jeffrey Armstrong) says: this universe is a school, a "universe-ity".
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