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Post by niscala on Feb 19, 2015 8:07:31 GMT -5
Mark Rsi, certainly Vraja quoted plenty of sastra about the importance of chanting, but no one is arguing that is not important! We all agree it is not just important, it is essential. It could not be more essential. Just because I say "The cause of the accident was a tyre blowout" does not mean that I believe a car can run without an engine, just because I didn't mention the engine. The cause of raganuga is having lobha or greed for the mood of a particular ragatmika Vrajabasi, but that does not mean or imply that chanting is not an essential irreplaceable part of the whole bhakti process.
Besides that, you are wrong in your claim that the argument Vraja was making was backed up by the quotes he gave us. That specific argument was that one must be chanting one lakh as a pre-qualification for raganuga bhakti. That is the topic of this thread, and he so far as not produced a shred of sastric evidence to support that SPECIFIC contention. If the topic and title was "Is chanting necessary for raganuga bhakti/advancement towards prema?" then the quotes he gave us would be entirely appropriate, but there would be no discussion as everyone, I am sure, would agree. Quotes stressing the importance of chanting are a waste of time on this thread as everyone is concurrent.
Neither are you correct to say that Uttamasloka never provided sastric evidence for his contention- that the qualification to begin raganuga bhakti is lobha. There has been ample sastric evidence to support that specific claim, both here, and loads of it in his book as well, which I doubt you have read or you would not fail to see how well supported it is by sastra.
It may be argued that though lobha is the direct cause for ragaunga, the cause of lobha is chanting 64 rounds a day. While certainly there are many quotes stressing the importance of incessant chanting, none of these state that incessant chanting or chanting of one lak is the cause of lobha or being qualified for ragaunga. In fact the qualifications given in the sastra, and quoted herein, are the mercy of Krsna or His devotee, and the specific sadhana which gives rise to it, is hearing the lila of Krsna and the inhabitants of Vrindavan.
So let's not turn it into as fight, what a waste of time and distraction from chanting that would be. Let's all be very happy chanting as much as possible, and absorbing ourselves in the sweet lila of Krsna- as they are mutually complementary practices- and take the mercy/instruction of advanced vaisnavas, and lobha will certainly arise in our hearts in due course.
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Post by Markendeya Rsi on Feb 19, 2015 10:27:21 GMT -5
Haribol Niscala, PAMHO AGSTP. It is true that you won't find a specific quote such as "64 rounds is required for raganuga bhakti," (at least I have never come across such a thing) but there is plenty of evidence that Vraja provided regarding the necessity to chant incessantly so we can reap the fruit of smaranam of nitya lila. I think that was his point, really, to not 'jump ahead' and to do the other things the acarays say we should, in particular - chant a lot! The acaryas all give the same warnings and recommendations, and he did too. He seemed concerned that it wasn't so much acknowledged here, despite the acarya's repeated words on this topic. As Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura states - aparadha means no benefit from reading nitya lila. And constant chanting is the solution for nama apradaha. The two seem completely intertwined, both here in sadhana, and their in Goloka Vrndavana. Whether there is a direct quote re "64 rounds to raganuga" is not so important, as Lord Caitanya and the acaryas do request is to chant always and everywhere anyway, which means 64 rounds plus! That will make us qualified to both hear and enter into nitya lila. Of course, there are specific statements about chanting 64 rounds, from Lord Caitanya to His disciples and followers, from the acaryas and from Srila Prabhupada. They all are leading us to raganuga. They are giving us the raganuga path. To always chant the Holy Name is the means and the end. I for one appreciated his quotes and I say they have contributed to this discussion. I hope the moderator here can take the good from all those references, as I feel they are very valuable for anyone attempting to traverse the path of raganuga, and not take them personally. He may even find Vraja's posts help him in his own raganuga practice! I don't think he should feel offended. We are all struggling in one way or another, I'm sure. A different angle of vision won't do any of us any harm, if we can remain humble! I am appreciating all sides here, not just one, as should we all, as mature? 'devotees.' The more input, the better, I say! Srila Prabhupada DOES instruct us to do our service AS WELL AS to constantly remember Krishna at all times by chanting His name, which is considered the best and most effective way of remembering Him. I think Vraja brought those points out very well. I have also appreciated Uttamasloka's points. I have taken the good from them both and neither of these devotees is condemned in my book, anyway! Ultimately we have to move from a mechanical, fear-based approach to the spontaneous platform (that is certain!), and chanting constantly, always and at all times, will very quickly bring us to that point. Our revered founder acarya Srila Prabhupada assures us of this. Everyone does! It will help us in our smaranam pratices also. I hope that one day I can be confident that I can pick up the wonderful books written by the acaryas about the intimate pastimes between Radha and Krishna and relish them on the transcendental platform without a tinge of material influence 'getting in the way.' To keep chanting as much as possible will definitely help me in that respect. So, let's all not take ourselves too seriously! Or think we cannot learn anything new about the path of raganuga! As someone who chants a lot, and who understand the need to of move from vaidhi to raganuga hearing all these quotes connecting constant chanting to get success on the raganuga path has been extremely refreshing. Hearing Uttamasloka stress those other points has also helped me tremendously. It is a good reminder. For me, a win win! I hope both sides can see the benefit from the other's presentation. I am sure they can, as they are big boys! So I say a big thanks to both parties! May they both carry on with their respective seva and bhajana and achieve all success in obtaining spontaneous love for the Divine Couple! I am sure they will both meet up there serving together anyways! Mark. Rsi
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Post by Jayadharma das on Feb 19, 2015 11:58:37 GMT -5
Hey Uttama,
IMHO I think you overreacted somewhat on this one. I detect a wee bit of pride and ego from your side, prabhuji. If you are a little honest I think you will admit it.
I hope so, anyway.
If you write a book such as yours you are bound to cop a bit of stick.
The book is good. But not perfect. How can it be? We can't encapsulate raganuga bhakti in a single book. There's a few minor flaws in your presentation. What's the big deal? Accept it and move on.
I am sure you don't believe you are perfect and can learn nothing else about this topic.
Whatever's been said, take it on the chin like a grown man. Be humble. Move on.
There is really no need to get your kaupins in a twist on this one. Life is too short, my man.
Being gracious always looks good for us 'seniors.'
Take care.
Your brother in arms.
Jayadharma das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 19, 2015 15:28:44 GMT -5
Markendeya Rsi & Jayadharma prabhus: Your points are well taken. Thanks to both of you for your input. When Vraja Vilasa was making his points without personally attacking me I responded accordingly, point by point. When he turned it into an ego-based tirade against me I could see that his agenda was not entirely focused on the philosophical aspects. Discussions which continue in that mode never progress well, and thus, I refused to continue on that basis. I did that based on past experience with these kinds of exchanges. I've managed over 70 discussions on this forum and as many on Facebook and via eMail, so I'm no stranger to these twists and turns. I know exactly how things go when someone degrades the discussion in those unacceptable ways. VV only wants to "defeat me" more than he does establish his viewpoint and that is a waste of our time. He's not interested in what I've presented and the proof is that he didn't even respond directly to my points which invalidated his analyses. This further reveals his personal agenda. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī explains that there are three types of discussions – vada, jalpa, and vitanda: In a vada discussion the motive of all concerned is to find out the truth. This is the ideal kind of discussion. It is for persons who are sober and impartial about the outcome; they simply want to know what is the truth of the matter. They are in the mode of goodness. Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interested in what is said by others, whether it has some truth or all of the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or contribution is of no interest. This is the way for a person in the mode of passion. A vitanda discussion is in the mode of ignorance. In this version the truth is of no value. One simply wants to win at all costs. [end] I already gave ample evidence to support my understanding and I don't feel inclined to waste time repeating things that have already been established, and not even have those points acknowledged or responded to (jalpa). That's why I put a stop to it. This is also not about my book being perfect. I've never ever said it was. It's not about me either, but people who are ego-driven always try to turn it into a direct attack on me and some go so far as to call into question my fidelity to my guru, Srila Prabhupada, without knowing anything about me personally. That's where I draw the line for what should be very obvious reasons. When I can ascertain by someone's statements that they have very little understanding of raganuga-bhakti, it's hard to take their criticism seriously. In fact, it gets very boring after a while because all it does is divert the discussion and waste everyones' time. It's also often very ugly and full of ignorance. Nonetheless, for the sake of maintaining some order and decorum on this forum I have to make decisions regarding how things should proceed and where the lines are drawn. All of these things considered, I don't think what I've done here is out of order in any way. It has nothing to do with my ego either. For every personal attack I've encountered during the last two years since my book was released, I've had dozens of extremely positive private responses that no one ever sees. No one sees Krsna's reciprocation with me on these matters either. My book is about the acaryas' teachings on this subject, systematically organized together in one place for everyone's examination and further discussion. That's why I created this forum - for further discussions. The variety and depth of these many discussions speak for themselves. Most of them were conducted according to acceptable standards and are thus very beneficial for those who study them. Chanting 64 rounds is absolutely NOT a pre-requisite for being qualified for, or practicing raganuga-bhakti, and VV's quotes did not prove otherwise. Chanting constantly is not the goal either. Prema in a specific relationship is the goal - prayojana. Those are the facts. Chanting japa does not continue in Vraja. Have you ever seen a picture of the gopis or gopas with bead bags? Does anyone think they are counting rounds in Vraja? Has anyone read that in the lila books? No. That is Lord Caitanya's lila. In Vraja, there is direct association, and in separation, the gopas and gopis sing songs/kirtans, recite poetry and discuss His pastimes and qualities, etc, as part of their absorption in Krsna induced by their ever-increasing prema. Chanting is the most effective means to attain that goal and I have not said otherwise. I have given additional clarifying insights directly from the acaryas. I left his posts so everyone could read his analysis. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem when he turns this into his personal attacks on me. That becomes a waste of time and focus and I'm not going to let that kind of bad behavior spoil this forum. Is that so hard to understand?
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Post by Markendeya Rsi on Feb 19, 2015 18:36:28 GMT -5
Haribol Uttamasloka,
PAMHO AGSTP.
Nice to hear from you.
I don't think that Vraja is making the point that 'gopis chant japa!' He made a couple of references to the following: Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states, "liberated souls have no duty other than to chant the Lord’s name." "The eternally liberated souls living in the spiritual world, however, always worship the holy name in beautifully composed hymns and sit in Goloka Vrndavana perpetually singing the name. Therefore they do not know any separation from the holy name." Bhaktivinoda Thakura.
Also, he DID state that constant chanting in NOT the goal here, at least once, where Sanatana Goswami states: "According to many pure devotees, nama-sankirtana is not only the best means of devotional service but the final perfection itself. Of course, prema is the final goal of bhakti, but nama-sankirtana so quickly and infallibly leads to prema that the two are considered virtually identical. Wherever prema is seen to have developed, one can presume that nama-sankirtana must have been performed. Nama-sankirtana is the necessary and sufficient cause of prema."
Lord Caitanya definitely came to give raganuga bhakti and he DID give a specific instruction to incessantly and even said to chant 64 rounds, as did our own founder acarya, many times. Vraja simply brought those points out that connect raganuga to chanting, I find those points relevant to the topic and generally well-presented. You see things a little differently from me, in that I didn't read his posts as attempting to 'defeat you' as you put it. Sometimes we cannot always see things as they are. I guess people see what they want to find...
You say: Jalpa is a discussion wherein one is not interested in what is said by others, whether it has some truth or all of the truth, because one simply wants to be heard. Any other view or contribution is of no interest." If you genuinely believe that then I hope you can gain a little from all those references, and including also from an insignificant jiva such as me! We should try to see the good in everyone and be humble accept those good things and carry on. I don't recall you really showing any appreciation for Vraja's contribution, which, at least for me, clarified and added value to the topic.
Krishna speaks through many people. If we are a little tuned in we can hear him helping us at all times. If we don't hear Him, then 'we are lost!"
So again, kudos to you both. I hope we can all move on from here in good spirits! As Jayadharma said, life is short...
Mark. Rsi
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Post by Devaki dd on Feb 19, 2015 19:21:30 GMT -5
Dear Prabhus and Matajis,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
If I may, I'd like to give a practical example of how the two sides here can meet...
As much as possible I try and get to as many "64 round a day" programs they hold at our local temple (which is not that often...sniff!) I find they really help me in my spiritual life. On those days I prepare myself by hearing all the quotes from sastra about the importance of harinama and that keeps me really focused, although my mind is as difficult to control as the wind! I always look forward to those days. I wish I could chant more and more all the time and these days give me a spiritual boost!!
My all-time favorite book is Vilapa Kusumanjai by Srila Raghunatha das Goswami, which me and a friend read together every week. All the chanting helps the reading, the reading helps the chanting. In my opinion both are great!
Your humble servant, in the service of Srila Prabhupada,
Devaki dd
PS. There is an ISKCON center in the Netherlands which holds regular 64 round harinama retreats for anyone. I even think they do this every month. Free prasada and an organised program. Many other temples also and it is increasing. As Srila Prabhupada wanted - more chanting, less meetings!
Happy chanting AND happy reading!
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Post by niscala on Feb 19, 2015 21:36:31 GMT -5
Mark Rsi: I don't think that Vraja is making the point that 'gopis chant japa!
No of course not, and neither was that stated. The point in bringing up the gopis, whose activities are on the spontaneous platform, is to show how sadhya is different from sadhana, and raganuga sadhana, which is to follow the path of the gopis/gopas is therefore different from vaidhi sadhana. Ample sastric evidence has been already provided to prove this.
Vaidhi is the path where one thinks "I should be doing this..." and by extension, that thought becomes "...and so should everyone else be". This is ignorant of the differences between the two paths of bhakti. When one is driven by taste, or desire, one's activities are more erratic, from an outside viewpoint. Sometimes one has a thirst for hearing a particular pastime of Krsna, sometimes for chanting His name, or the name of one's beloved gopa or gopi, sometimes all activity may stop externally as one becomes absorbed in remembering.
To a vaidhi bhakta, such devotees appear to be not fixed up or serious. How can they think otherwise, when they have so much respect for rules and regulations? There is an answer to that- they can heed another rule, given in the sastra- "All rules are there to serve only two essential rules- Always remember Krsna and never forget Him." If that is achieved, then the rules by which it are acheived, raganuga sadhana, are those rules that should be followed by that devotee. Thus vaidhi bhaktas can be peaceful that raganuga devotees are also following rules.
From the raganuga devotee's point of view, this is not important. What is important, in terms of motivation, is his taste, nothing else. As a devotee proceeds on the path of taste, his taste for chanting and the quality of his chanting, both increase proportionately. Thus it is seen that very advanced raganuga devotees chant incessantly, with great relish, wanting to do nothing else, to never let the name cease to resound on their lips. They pray to do it so constantly that even in their sleep they can chant. They have direct perception that Krsna is His Holy Name and pray to never be separate from Him. That is their only desire. Simultaneously they are engaging in various types of lila sevanam and lila smaranam. At times the japa may be silent, in their minds, at times very loud.
Thus the activities of chanting can be the natural result either of taste- or the feeling one should follow this rule- to chant 64 rounds. Vaidhi bhakti is called the "weak" path of bhakti, because even if one is doing all the rules, such as chanting 64 rounds, because there is little taste, the mind wanders and the chanting becomes inattentive, and affected by that aparadha. And because there is a lack of inner realization, one may be prone to make offenses, by making judgments about raganuga devotees or by discouraging those who are on the threshold of raganuga, by insisting that they chant 64 rounds first.
The cure for such aparadha is to chant constantly. Eventually then such offensive thoughts cease and one only becomes a source of encouragement for everyone, causing no hurt or discouragement to anyone in their spiritual development, encouraging them to chant as much as possible, and also as much as possible, develop lobha by hearing of the sweet lila of Krsna.
Then the chanting becomes more relishable, more focussed on Krsna and you will get more taste from it and want to increase chanting more and more.
All aspects of this process are important. While nothing happens without nama kirtan, so many books have been written by the acaryas to facilitate entrance to raganuga by specific meditations which open the way for specific tastes, and these directions should also be followed. They should be learned by those who have developed spiritual greed, and they can also be learned prior to developing that, so that one can make effort in that direction, and move out of the dangerous prakrta stage of vaidhi, being fixed up in a loving relationship with Krsna, or an intense desire for it.
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Post by Vraja on Mar 21, 2015 21:23:41 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka das and forum devotees,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I would like to offer my sincerest apologies to Uttamasloka prabhu for any harshness, direct or indirect criticism, and any other type of offensiveness that spewed forth from my mouth towards himself via my posts on this forum. I completely retract anything untoward that I have stated here. I understand that my attitude was prideful, not in the line of bhakti, not stemming from love and affection towards Uttamasloka prabhu, and thus very unpleasant overall.
I therefore throw myself at the feet of Uttamasloka prabhu and the devotees here and beg that they please forgive me for my arrogance, immaturity and narrow-mindedness regarding the topic of raganuga bhakti.
Even though some appreciated the references to the importance of the holy name, unfortunately my contribution was clouded by a huge dash of false ego. Such behaviour is the activity of a conditioned soul and is to be expected, but not welcome, nor appreciated by vaisnavas, so I am very sorry for it. No doubt Uttamasloka prabhu is very tolerant of me. I pray that he may overlook my offensiveness in this regard and continue to help me.
Uttamasloka prabhu has done and continues to do extremely valuable service to his spiritual master and I very much appreciate what he is doing. It is very difficult to put into words how much he has helped me, and I pray that he may continue to live a long and healthy life so he can hep others in their spiritual life.
Your servant,
Vraja
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Post by niscala on Mar 22, 2015 8:34:07 GMT -5
Dear Vraja, your reply is so valuable because it teaches by example, so many vaisnava qualities, that without seeing them in the devotee, they remain abstract and theoretical, and devotees like me may never develop them. Thank you for your exemplifying courage, honesty, humility and respect, and strength of character and determination. I hope to be purified by your association on this forum. y.s. Niscala
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Post by Uttamasloka on Mar 22, 2015 20:12:14 GMT -5
Dear Vraja... Obeisances accepted and returned. Jaya Srila Prabhupada! I felt genuine sincerity, humility and love in your apology and I wholly accept it with gratitude. You are forgiven. No hard feelings. No worries. I'm especially happy to hear that I've made a worthwhile contribution to your spiritual progress. I will certainly continue to help you in any way I can. Thank you for your kind and generous words of support and encouragement. I really appreciate it. I agree with Niscala's statement as well. Your servant, Uttamasloka dasa...
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Post by Vraja on Mar 22, 2015 21:11:59 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu, I thank you very much for your kind forgiveness. I also confess that, due to fear of losing your association here after my aggressively prideful posting, I posted as Rg to get further help from you. So, in the interests of honesty and to not be further deceitful, I admit this foolish mistake to you and others on this forum. I thus also ask for your forgiveness for this stupidity. I value your association and hope that we can have a profitable, friendly, honest up-front relationship based on common goals in the future, notwithstanding the rocky start. I no longer wish to hide such things, especially as such honesty is required foundation for spiritual progress. Also, thank you to mother Niscala for not condemning my condemnable behaviour. I am not sure my association is necessarily purifying, though one can certainly learn from others' negativity - what not to do and how not to behave. That is likely the case here. In that sense, I am glad to have been of help, in precisely what NOT to do I look forward to more of your association. Your servant, Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by D. Das on Jan 21, 2018 21:56:56 GMT -5
The pre-requisite for being a Gaudiya Vaishnava must necessarily depend on what the present Acharya states are the requirements of performance by a duly initiated disciple. My guru is Srila Prabhupada and he has ordered me to chant a minimum of 16 rounds daily and follow the regulative principles of vaidhi bhakti. If I do that, I am a practicing bhakta of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition under the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. I am only responding to the question of what is the pre-requisite for being considered a Gaudiya Vaishnava. Radhe Radhe!
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Post by Brett on Jan 23, 2018 3:41:22 GMT -5
The pre-requisite for being a Gaudiya Vaishnava must necessarily depend on what the present Acharya states are the requirements of performance by a duly initiated disciple. My guru is Srila Prabhupada and he has ordered me to chant a minimum of 16 rounds daily and follow the regulative principles of vaidhi bhakti. If I do that, I am a practicing bhakta of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition under the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master. I am only responding to the question of what is the pre-requisite for being considered a Gaudiya Vaishnava. Radhe Radhe! Dear Mahasakti das, Who is going to say who is the 'present acarya?' Thank you. Brett
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Post by Brett on Jan 28, 2018 19:05:37 GMT -5
As far as the OP goes, it is clear, from both the practices and teachings of the acaryas, that chanting 1 lakh IS a prerequisite for making sufficient advancement on the path of raga. This is how Lord Caitanya and all His genuine followers taught. Without the appropriate dedication to volume and quality of nama bhajan, raga marga will fail, without which all one will be left with is sahajiyaism. Any references that make claims that 1 lakh is not required usually selectively quote RVC verses, and in isolation from all the other quotes. "Only GREED is required!" They shout from the rooftops. Yes, on that we all agree. However, how was this greed exhibited by Lord Caitanya and all His followers? By chanting continuously and as much as possible. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.
It is an error to ignore this topic without addressing nama bhajan in any depth and as a sign of genuine raga marga. I have noticed that the participants on this thread, with very few exceptions, are all either making mistakes, not well read, are simply failing to acknowledge nama due to a lack of adhikara, or possibly even doing so due to outright nefarious motives solely designed to mislead people.
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Post by Brett on Jan 28, 2018 19:11:35 GMT -5
Some people have stated that the following statements are no longer valid, or irrelevant, due to it no longer being a time when people can chant 64 rounds, and that is is now impractical. However, instead of misinterpreting and twisting the words of the Lord to suit one's own inability or desire, is is better to accept them as they are.
Caitanya Bhagavata:
prabhu bale,-"jana, 'laksesvara' bali kare? prati-dina laksa-nama ye grahana kare"
In the Caitanya-bhagavata Madhya Khanda 9.121-122, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed us on whose worship and service He will accept:
"Do you know who is a laksesvara? He is someone who chants one laksa, or one hundred thousand holy names (sixty-four rounds of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra) everyday."
sri gaurasundera balibena - "jini pratidina laksanama grahana karibena, tanharai grhe bhagavan sevita hana."
Sri Gaurasundara spoke as follows - "The Supreme Personality of Godhead accepts service only in the home of those who chant one hundred thousand names daily.
bhagavan tanharai nikate bhoga-dravyadi grahana karena.
"The Lord accepts bhoga (foodstuffs) and other ingredients only from such personalities.
jini laksanama grahana karena na, tahara nikate haite bhagavan naivedya svikara-dvara seva-saubhagya pradana karena na.
"Those who don't chant one hundred thousand names daily, are never awarded the great fortune of rendering service to the Lord by offering Him naivedya (bhoga). This is because never accepts (svikara) their offerings."
bhagavad-bhakta matrei pratyaha laksa-nama grahana karibena natuva vividha visaye asakta haiya bhagavad-seva karite asamartha haibena.
The Lord continued - "Those who consider themselves devotees of the Lord must compulsorily chant 100,000 names everyday otherwise they will gradually but surely become attached to varieties of sense- objects and thus become incapable to rendering any kind of service to the Lord."
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