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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 7:13:05 GMT -5
For those that are interested, here is something interesting from Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Goswami. I am not his follower, and never heard anything from him prior to reading this. Some may appreciate:
We attempt to speak about Krishna, but what can we really say? We memorise a few verses and recite them like a parrot, and that is the extent of our glorification of the Lord. Where is our inner feeling? Everyone goes around talking about raga-bhakti, but where is that spontaneous feeling that is the meaning of raga? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told us to follow some simple rules, the rules of vidhi-bhakti. He said to chant the Holy Name, to chant a lakh every day. This happened in Puri when all the brahmanas there started to invite Him to accept dinner at their homes. So Mahaprabhu answered that He only ate at the houses of millionaires, which in Bengali is lakha-pati. All the brahmanas were disappointed to hear Mahaprabhu say this, because they were all very poor. Then Mahaprabhu laughed and said, “You know what I mean by a lakha-pati? I mean someone who chants a hundred thousand Holy Names every day.” The brahmanas were immediately relieved and said, “Is there anyone more merciful to us than You? You devise strategies like this to get us to chant the Holy Name. Of course we will chant a lakh every day, but please accept our invitation!”
Srila Prabhupada also told us to chant a lakh every day. Many of our godbrothers went to him and said, “But Prabhupada, we have to do so much service. How can we chant a lakh every day?” Prabhupada never said, “Just chant as much as you can. That is enough.” He said, “Make the time. Somehow or another, find the time.” I heard him say this myself. But we don’t. We can’t find the time to chant. This is the extent of our capacity to do bhajana. And yet we still think that we can talk about raga-bhakti. All these Western devotees who come here hear about something called raga-bhakti and immediately think that they understand everything there is to know about it. But they really know nothing about the qualifications that are needed to attain raga-bhakti. They don’t understand. This is why I have spoken about all these matters from the Srimad-Bhagavatam.
At the beginning of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the following statements were made:
srinvatam sva-kathah krishnah punya-sravana-kirtanah hridy antahstho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrit satam
“Hearing and speaking about Lord Krishna is a most pure activity, for as you engage in such activities, the Lord Himself enters your heart and destroys all the causes of inauspiciousness that are obstacles to your spiritual life. This is how Krishna acts as a friend to the pious.”
nashta-prayeshv abhadreshu nityam bhagavata-sevaya bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naishthiki
“When all causes of inauspiciousness or anarthas are almost completely destroyed through regular service to the devotees and hearing the Srimad-Bhagavatam, then one comes to the stage of steadfast devotion to the Supreme Lord, Who is glorified in the best of poetry.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.17-18)
You have to hear the Srimad-Bhagavatam under the guidance of advanced devotees, who are also known as Bhagavatas. As one does so, one will gradually attain “steadfast devotion to the Supreme Lord, who is glorified in the best of poetry.” What is the nature of such steadfast devotion? That is explained in the commentary to the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu with the words avikshepena satatyam: “constancy without distraction.” It is not enough to carry beads in your hand and to finger them from time to time. You have to achieve constancy in chanting without allowing your mind to be distracted. Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his Hari-nama-cintamani:
laksha nama haile purna sankhya mala gani hridaye nahila rasa bindu guna mani
“One may complete chanting a lakh of Names on his japa-mala, O Lord, but still not get a drop of the Holy Name’s ecstatic taste.” (12.14)
The reason is that while chanting, the mind is wandering all over the place, thinking of so many different things. What is the point of chanting the Holy Name a million times if you still don’t experience krishna-prema? Is this raga-bhakti? Is this what raga-bhakti looks like? Will a raga-bhakta have no taste for chanting the Holy Name? Where is the attachment to chanting the Holy Name? You can’t catch a worm and yet you think you can go cobra hunting?
You talk to these people about developing affection for the Holy Name and they treat it as though it were irrelevant. They are attracted to the stories of girls, but they don’t realise who these girls are. Radharani is Krishna’s personal potency, and the gopis are all Her expansions, extensions of Herself. Therefore it is said that Krishna is not engaged in dalliances with anyone but Himself. He is the self-sufficient Supreme Lord, and all these gopis are not separate from His essence. There is no falldown, no question of material lust. The Bhagavata (10.33.25) uses the term avaruddha-saurata to indicate that no gross sexual activity is involved in the rasa-lila. Therefore, Sridhara Svami concludes that the rasa-lila is Krishna’s lust-conquering pastime. There is not the slightest trace of material lust in the activities shared by Krishna and the gopis, not the slightest tendency to selfishly seek the gratification of their own senses. We will not be able to understand this. Therefore, we must listen carefully from our spiritual masters in order to understand what qualifications are needed to enter into the Lord’s joyful world of play.
Mahaprabhu Himself relished such matters in private in the Gambhira with His intimate associates Svarupa Damodara and Ramananda Raya. There were no worldly-minded people present when these discussions went on. But what are these people doing? They say this is Radha-kunda, Radharani’s realm, but how many of us can really live in Radha-kunda? How many of us are even able to take the dust of Radha-kunda on our heads? We have to take these things into account. Do we dip our hands in the holy water of Radha-kunda only to shake it off again?
Srila Prabhupada used to tell a funny story about an opium smoker. The sun was setting and this addict felt the need to satisfy his addiction, but he was on one side of the river, while the village where there was fire to light his pipe was on the other. Our situation is something like this. We want to be united with Krishna, the Lord of Goloka, but we are separated by a raging river of disqualifications. We have to bear all this in mind. We can dive into Radha-kunda as often as we like, drink the water, submerge ourselves in it, but that does not mean that we have really bathed in Radha-kunda. What we really have to do is plunge into the waters of Radharani’s mood of spontaneous devotion, and to do that we must first develop enthusiasm for Krishna’s Name. Without such enthusiasm, nothing further will be gained. This is the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
When the sun of prema rises, then all the darkness of sin and suffering dissipates. This means lust and all it entails. This is how Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura awards eligibility for entering the rasa-lila, but that does not take place until one has attained raga-bhakti. Muslims are also listening to the rasa-lila while puffing on a bidi or some other weed. Such people are heard to applaud and ask the speaker for an encore, “Keep on speaking. Keep on speaking.” What is going on here? It is their material lusts that are being awakened, not any real mood of devotion.
One cannot steal one’s way into the highest stages of spiritual life. We must earn the right to enter the realm of Divine Love."
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 11, 2015 14:42:05 GMT -5
Do you know what year he said these things? It is clear that people of his generation from India, who became Vaisnavas by the influence of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, are following his hard line about being qualified for raganuga-bhakti and not cheating. They were confronted with so many bogus sects at that time who were spoiling things for those who were genuine.
I took great care when writing my book to insure that the full qualifications were clearly established for each progressive stage, as given by the acaryas. Some of the issues he refers to above are directly due to the fact that all of the details associated with raganuga-bhakti and its qualifications have not been presented and thus, many misconceptions abound, along with outright ignorance. This is a much bigger problem in my opinion. If the facts are presented then there is less likelihood that people will misunderstand.
I find it a bit strange that so many people 'worry' about others taking things cheaply or incorrectly, ie: the so-called 'sahajiya syndrome'. I have yet to meet any such 'sahajiyas', but I suppose they are there somewhere. It's not any of our business to worry about how others might misunderstand various aspects of our philosophy. It's almost guaranteed that those who do have such misunderstandings also misconstrue other aspects of the philosophy besides raganuga-bhakti. We should first make sure that our understanding is in sync with the acaryas and that we are presenting it correctly. Then, when misconceptions come forward we can dispense with them accordingly.
Raganuga-bhakti has many layers and it is important now that mature devotees understand it correctly and rid themselves of misconceptions. There is a lot of preliminary knowledge that has nothing to do with rasa-lila or other confidential topics, so we shouldn't distort things by making it seem like that's all there is to it. Then it makes it seem like it's impossible to even 'approach', what to speak of the possibility of becoming qualified. There is no prohibition by the acaryas against studying the details related to raganuga-bhakti for the purpose of understanding the qualifications and the processes involved. That is encouraged and is necessary.
And as far as chanting 64 rounds to be qualified, it's interesting to note, that by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, the bhakti movement of Lord Caitanya was spread all over the world by devotees who barely chanted 16 rounds, and most certainly not without offenses. None of the acaryas have written anywhere that chanting 64 rounds is a prerequisite for practicing raganuga-bhakti. Chanting is always a key part of one's sadhana so that goes without saying.
Here are the actual direct statements of Viśvanātha Cakravartī where he talks about lust in Mādhurya-kadambinī to give us a broader perspective on the issue of lust in conjunction with the rasa-lila pastimes:
Although lust is also considered a fault on the path of bhakti, one can still enter the devotional path, despite being still afflicted by lust and other material desires. Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says:
A person who faithfully hears or describes the Lord’s pastimes of rāsa-līlā with the gopīs of Vraja attains supreme devotion of the Lord. He quickly becomes steady and conquers over the senses, giving up lust, the disease of the heart. SB, 10.33.39
In this text, “after attaining supreme devotion” is an unfinished act showing that bhakti can be attained even though one has lusty desires. This shows the most independent nature and power of bhakti to destroy lusty desires.
Sometimes lusty desires exist even while practicing devotion. From verses like, “If the most sinful person worships Me exclusively...” and, “Though my devotee is afflicted by lusty desires...” it is clear that though lusty desires may exist in a devotee, still he is not condemned even slightly. MK, 1.11
Here are some further highlights from Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary on the above verse in Śrīmad-bhāgavatam (10.33.39):
One who continuously hears, glorifies or writes poetry about this autumnal rāsa-līlā and similar pastimes of Kṛṣṇa described by other poets, first of all, even if he has the heart disease of material lust, he becomes imbued with prema. Then, by it’s effect, the disease of the heart is destroyed. Thus, it is understood here that this prema is independent; it is not weak or dependent like jñāna-yoga.
…One who faithfully hears and glorifies Kṛṣṇa’s rāsa dance is described as learned, for he does not foolishly doubt, “How can kṛṣṇa-prema appear if material lust is present?” Kṛṣṇa-prema will definitely appear in that person who is devoid of foolishness, and who accepts the statements of scripture with full faith. However, kṛṣṇa-prema will not appear within those who have no faith in Kṛṣṇa or who offend the Holy Name.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 18:37:38 GMT -5
Hare Krsna prabhu,
Yes, I take your points.
However, we see from the practices and teachings of the acaryas, that they chanted minimum 100000 names along with their other raganuga practices. The prominent 'rasacaryas' such as Haridasa Thakura, Raghunatha das Goswami and the characters from Jaiva Dharma (a main sourcebook of ragauga instruction) chanted large volumes, and instructed others to do the same. Lord Caitanya Himself orders 100000 minimum and his followers repeated that instruction faithfully. And, if you look at Srila Prabhupada, he did the very same thing.
"If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Krsna is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra" Bg 8.5
"Sada means "always." Haridasa Thakura says, nirantara nama lao: "Chant the Hare Krsna mantra without stopping." Antya 3.137
"That is the instruction given by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Siksastaka 3. Kirtaniyah sada harih: [Cc. adi 17.31] "The holy name of the Lord should be chanted twenty-four hours daily."
"Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage." Bg 9.31
"Similarly, when we hear any sound we can remember Krishna because sound is Krishna, and the most perfect sound, transcendental, is Hare Krishna, WHICH WE HAVE TO CHANT 24 HOURS." Los Angeles 15 January, 1968
Srila Prabhupada engaged everybody in the mission, somehow or other, but does that automatically make them a premi bhakta? Are they automatically fixed on the ragaunga path just because they did some service in the 60's and 70's? Nothing further to learn and practice? Srila Prabhupada got us started, but that doesn't mean it is complete. There are hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of references where Srila Prbahupada states that we need to chant incessantly, constantly, always, 24 hours a day, etc. Such chanting is inseparable from raganuga bhakti. Prabhupada is a premi bhakta after all, so why would he instruct us any differently than what Lord Caitanya and the rasacaryas did?
The acaryas always give the same instructions. Srila Prabhupada did too.
Those acaryas who write about lust being destroyed by hearing rasa lila ALSO write about chanting incessantly, along with other meditation practices. Let's not forget those instructions. They all chant minimum 100000 names, and preach that same thing. It is a concomitant, consistent factor, both in raganuga sadhana and sadhya, for all the acaryas:
Prema Vivarta
"Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura. In your heart be absorbed in the asta-kaliya-lila service of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the bowers of Vrndavana."
And from Madhurya Kadambini:
"The devotee attains the blessed stage of prema vowing to incessantly chant the holy name of His dearmost Lord. The ecstacy of prema melts his heart and he laughs, cries, becomes restless, sings and danceslike a madman, oblivious of everything and everyone around him."
And again in Raga Vartma Candrika:
Statements such as “always do japa with a fixed mind” indicate nitya krtya, or perpetual duties. Those who follow the order of the Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika to “always do japa of Krsna’s holy name, which is related to the desired mood” in their mentally conceived spiritual bodies, are also called “related to the desired mood” which is a direct cause for attainment of their goal.
And again, this from Lord Caitanya to Raghunatha das Goswami:
"Take shelter of the holy name of Krsna and chant constantly. Serve Srimati Radharani and Sri Krsna in the mood of Vraja in the core of your heart."
"Externally, your devotional service is to always chant the name of Lord Krsna, and internally, constantly engage in serving Sri Sri Radha-Krsna with your spiritual body."
And of course, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, who gave so much instruction on raganuga bhakti, is in complete agreement:
"Exclusive devotees engage in practically nothing other than chanting the Holy Name" HC
And we can see in Jaiva Dharma, who didn't chant at least 50000 names a day? Even before raganuga instruction.
Your point about the movement 'being spread all over the world' by persons who only chanted 16 rounds is not really relevant. Those devotees were not necessarily advanced or well situated, then or now. Someone may be chanting 16 rounds but be remaining neophyte, so what are they factually 'spreading?' The key thing to 'spread' is krsna-prema and that can only be done by an empowered premi bhakta. And to get prema bhakti one must follow the entire process and footsteps of the acaryas, not just some parts of their instructions. Even to get free from nama aparadha one must chant incessantly, 24 hours in a repentant mood. We tend to skip over these bits:
"Only incessant chanting of harinama can effect the purification of one who is infected with namaparadha. Indeed, the incessant chanting of harinama is the only way to achieve the prayojana of human life, krsna-prema." Harinama Cintamani
As they appear inconvenient.
So along with other instructions on the meditational practices on the raga marga, these essential instructions are there from our raganuga acaryas, sometimes in the very same sentence.
All I am saying is that someone who wants to go deeper into their relationship with Krsna on the raga marga may also want to keep these instructions about increasing one's chanting in mind, while engaging in any other raganuga practice. On this point, the acaryas, the Lord Himself, and of course Srila Prabhupada all speak for themselves on the means of attaining the highest goal and obtaining krsna-prema.
We can definitely see that in the personal lives, practices and teachings of the acaryas, as well as the orders from Lord Caitanya, that minimum 100000 names is definitely part and parcel of achieving success on the raga path:
Srila Vrindavan Das Thakura
"Day and night, twenty-four hours, in all conditions, both sleeping and waking, even while taking food, simply utter the name of Krishna." CB
Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji
"If you want to achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness, you must take a vow to chant a minimum of two hundred thousand or otherwise one hundred thousand of holy names every day, and you must execute that without fail. Before you retire at night you must finish this specific number of rounds, then you can achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness."
Sri Jagadananda Pandita
"Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura." Prema Vivarta
"In any case, one must chant krsna-nama continuously. Raghunatha das Babaji JD
"Also, one should certainly chant Harinama japa at all times." SBVT
The words repeatedly used in this connection are must, should, incessantly, etc. I don't believe these statements of the rasacaryas can be neglected, minimised, ignored or discarded so easily if one at all wants success on the raganuga path. Neither do I believe Srila Prabhupada watered down the process, as can be seen by his other statements on chanting constantly.
As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states, "liberated souls have no duty other than to chant the Lord’s name." Whatever we do in practice will continue once liberated.
As far as I can see, minimising, reducing or stopping chanting the holy name at some point doesn't seem to be part of raganuga sadhana, either in practice or perfection. In fact, quite the opposite appears to be the case, at least from my cursory investigation. If anyone can show me that chanting is meant to be decreased while on the raganuga path, then I would be interested to read it. I have seen anything in that regard just yet. There may be something, but the overwhelming instructions, orders and practices of our acaryas show otherwise:
"The path for attaining rasa is as follows: The jiva who has attained faith in bhakti receives a pure Vaisnava guru. That guru gives the maha-mantra. The jiva will take the mantra, either in the form of smarana (remembering the name) or kirtana (chanting the name), regulating himself by counting on Tulasi beads. Gradually, as his craving for the name increases, he will increase to 3 x 64 rounds." HC
"These prema-ruruksu devotees chant and tell their beads three lacs (3 x 64 rounds) in every twenty-four hours, and they find such happiness in the holy name that they cannot spare a moment without Him; then, when no time can be kept in sleep, etc., they become incessant in their bhajana." HC
"When one’s mind desires to chant and remember one hundred thousand holy names (64 rounds) daily and furthur desires to slowly increase it to three hundred thousand and when one’s mind becomes very attached and eager to complete the fixed number of rounds daily and pushes one to complete the sankhya everyday, then it is understood that very soon the laziness or apathy in chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra will vanish by the mercy of the devotees and one’s chanting will bring one the desired fruit of pure love for Krishna." HC
"Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises that the devotee should chant always, 24 HOURS." Srila Prabhupada, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.18 -- October 27, 1975, Nairobi
"There are many regulative principles in the sastras and directions given by the spiritual master. These regulative principles should act as servants of the basic principle—that is, one should always remember Krsna and never forget Him. This is possible when one chants the Hare Krsna mantra. Therefore one must strictly chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra twenty-four hours daily". Madhya 22.113
"In order to be recognized by Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one should chant the holy name of the Lord continuously, twenty-four hours a day." SB 4.23.7
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "Always discuss Srimad-Bhagavatam AND constantly chant the holy name of Lord Krsna. In this way you will be able to attain liberation very easily, and you will be elevated to the enjoyment of love of Godhead." Madhya 25.154
And from our dearmost Founder-acarya:
"In conclusion, one who chants the holy name of the Lord constantly is guaranteed to return home, back to Godhead, without a doubt." Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.2.49
"By following these principles of devotional service strictly, chanting twenty-four hours a day the maha-mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare -- one makes positive progress in spiritual life and ultimately becomes completely fit to see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face." Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.21.42
"Without being unnecessarily agitated, if we take to the process of Krsna consciousness by constantly chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, the cycle of birth and death can be stopped for good." Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.31.21
"We should constantly chant the holy names of the Lord, the Hare Krsna maha-mantra" Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 25.197-98
Hope this helps.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 12, 2015 22:58:15 GMT -5
They were all at the stage of prema. Big difference from those at the beginning stages of raganuga-bhakti.
Rupa Gosvami is considered to be the primary architect of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy as taught to him by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In the chapter on sadhana-bhakti in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, RG does not specify or even mention that chanting 64 rounds per day is a mandatory practice for those qualified to engage in raganuga-bhakti. In fact, in that same chapter of Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, RG states that either one or many aṅgas may be performed to reach the goal:
Bhakti, taking shelter of one principal aṅga or many aṅgas, according to one’s desire, and practiced with steadiness (niṣṭhā), brings about the desired result (bhāva and prema). BRS, 1.2.264
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
That bhakti in which one aṅga is performed as the principal one among hearing, chanting and other aṅgas, while other aṅgas become secondary, or that bhakti in which many aṅgas are performed, leads to perfection. The choice of one or many aṅgas is according to one’s preference.
Here is additional relevant info from Srila BR Sridhara Svami, Search for Sri Krsna, page 113:
Student: How many rounds did your guru maharaja ask his initiated disciples to chant each day? Did he prescribe any set number?
Sridhara Maharaja: His general recommendation was to chant twenty-five thousand names, sixteen rounds, daily, or at least four rounds minimum. When someone had no work, he could chant one hundred thousand names, or sixty-four rounds.
Student: Would Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura give harinama initiation to someone who could only chant four rounds daily?
Sridhara Maharaja: There was no such consideration. Formally, one had to do some counting, but there was no rigid limitation. What he wanted from us was intense engagement in the service of the Lord.
The problem with your quotes is that you cannot take random quotes and simply apply them as direct validation to a concept you have about this process. Most of the quotes you've given were not stated in direct connection with the sadhana or bhajana of raganuga-bhakti. There are guiding principles given for the sadhana and bhajana of raganuga but they are not exactly hard and fast rules.
The actual fact of the matter is that hardly anyone can chant constantly as those quotes recommend. It is more or less impossible unless one is at the stage of prema, like Haridasa Thakura, or is close to attaining bhava, ie: asakti. Haridasa Thakura didn't chant all those rounds as a mechanical feat. He was absorbed in prema and therefore he was chanting as nourishment for his prema and what was manifesting in his heart as a result. All of the recommendations you cited to chant constantly are implying that one must 'eventually' become fully absorbed in his/her relationship with Krsna, which is the only way that one can chant constantly.
These are all in the mood of 'recommendations' - not absolute 'rules'. The process of sadhana-bhakti is multi-faceted and it is a 'gradual' transformation for each individual by engaging all of one's senses. You cannot artificially force anything on anyone and that includes chanting incessantly or even 64 rounds per day. When it is said to chant 24 hours daily, it does not mean that literally because it would be impossible to live without sleeping or eating, etc. And the Gosvamis also did other things like arcana in their temples and they wrote books and had daily discussions, so there was no question that they all chanted 24 hours a day and nothing else. They most certainly did not, because they wouldn't have established temples and written so many books and taught so many devotees. This is an important point that you are missing with your literal interpretations.
Your statement here makes very little sense, nor does it have much relevance to what I stated. All of SP's references to chanting constantly are not to be taken literally. That is a mistaken interpretation. SP himself didn't chant 24 hours per day and neither did SBSST. By accounts from his personal servants, SP didn't even chant 16 rounds many days. But that is not a flaw. It is a direct example that what you are saying is not the correct way to understand these statements. The goal is not to chant constantly. The goal is to realize your relationship with Krsna and develop that by the internal processes for raganuga-bhati that were given by the acaryas. Chanting is one of the primary angas that supports those internal processes and the development that takes place as a result.
No it isn't. Where is this stated in BRS or UN or Bhakti-sandarbha, etc? The quotes you gave are for devotees at the stage of prema or very close. No one who begins the path of raganuga will be able to do this. You do not have a realistic perspective about how this process works or how it is described by the acaryas. BVT and JG and VCT all describe 5 progressive stages of smaranam, leading to samadhi for those in prema. Smaranam is directly related to sravanam and kirtanam. There is no way they insist on chanting 64 rounds for those who are just in the beginning stages. Even BVT describes a gradual program of increasing one's chanting as one progresses. That is reality. Not what you have implied.
Absorption in asta-kaliya-lila is only possible at asakti. Therefore, this quote does not apply to those at earlier stages of progress because it is not possible.
This proves my point exactly - 'at the blessed stage of prema'.
You conveniently left out this part:
Those who have a decided preference for the path of Deity worship will attain the same perfection as from hearing and chanting. One who has single-minded affection for the Holy Name only engages in hearing, chanting and remembering. HC, 15.39-40
Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura’s notes:
Exclusive devotees engage in practically nothing other than chanting the Holy Name and remembering Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes. Doing this with supreme love, they have no taste for any other activity. They may serve their beloved Deities according to their particular mood. They do so according to their desire using their personal mantra and they set their rules for this worship according to their personal taste.
It is very relevant because it shows the potency of Lord Caitanya's mercy through His devotees. Even those who were not chanting 64 rounds per day.
So what? The movement was still spread by their efforts under SP's guidance.
They were empowered to spread Lord Caitanya's movement and His mercy. They did it as seva to their guru and thus they were properly situated to participate as empowered servants, in spite of their neophyte status. That is the reality of how it happened. There is no denying this.
And this contradicts the statement about arcana from the very same book.
No one has denied the importance of chanting for advancement.
There is no hard and fast rule that one must chant 64 rounds per day as a mandatory part of raganuga-bhakti. Your quotes do not support that. They are mostly just recommendations to become fully absorbed in Krsna.
You are taking these statements out of context. They are simply stating that one should become absorbed in Krsna 24 hours a day. Why are you ignoring reality? No one will be able to chant 24 hours a day until they attain prema. It is not possible otherwise.
This is a key point: it is just your 'cursory investigation'. I suggest you actually read all of the acaryas' books and understand their instructions and teachings in the full context they were given. Why did they bother to teach anything else? Why didn't they instead just tell everyone to chant and be done with it? How will Lord Caitanya's movement be spread if everyone is like Haridasa Thakura? Even Lord Caitanya's other nitya-siddha associates couldn't follow Haridasa's chanting regimen.
Now you are just being ridiculous. This is a straw-man tactic. No one has said anything of the kind, so please don't spoil the discussion by saying absurd things like this.
This proves my point that it is a gradual and progressive process. You cannot start off chanting 64 rounds or incessantly in the beginning stages. No one can.
Here's a perfect example of what I've been saying. How is it physically possible to ALWAYS discuss SB and CONSTANTLY chant the holy names? It's not. Therefore, we cannot take these statements literally like you are mistakenly doing. And if you are participating in missionary activities to spread this movement, you will be forced to do so many things that will not allow you to chant 24 hours a day.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 1:17:11 GMT -5
Hare Krsna prabhu,
Thanks for your reply.
As we can see from the instructions of Lord Caitanya and all the acaryas, specifically those acaryas who have detailed the science of raganuga bhakti, constant chanting is both the means to obtain krsna-prema, as well as the end result. Chanting the holy name is never given up at any time on the raganuga path, as is clearly stated by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:
"When the impure jiva takes up the process of bhakti for his purification, he is performing sadhana-bhakti, or devotional service in practice. When his practice reaches purity and perfection (sadhya), in other words, when the jiva achieves prema-bhakti, the activities of sadhana-bhakti -- hearing and chanting the Lord's name, etc. -- remain as the activities of prema-bhakti. The principal activities of devotional service are eternal. At the perfectional stage of prema, the means (sadhana) and the end (sadhya), or the method (upaya) and what is to be attained by the method (upeya) become nondifferent. Thus there is no barrier or obstacle between the life and activities during training and at the perfectional stage: the holy name remains constant in both cases. Harinma Cintamani
As well, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura states constant chanting is a necessary and concomitant factor to achieve freedom from nama aparadha:
“‘Only incessant chanting of harinama can effect the purification of one who is infected with namaparadha. Indeed, the incessant chanting of harinama is the only way to achieve the prayojana of human life, krsna-prema.’ Jaiva Dharma
These statements speak for themselves and anyone who is interested in the topic can find more relevant quotes in my previous posts. I will therefore just remind us all of a couple more, and I am sure if one simply reads them with an open mind and heart, one may be able to find their appreciation and understanding of the practices of raganuga bhakti increasing.
I think some misunderstanding stems from a statement in your book (page 87), wherein you say:
"Therefore, many devotees say that chanting (kirtanam) is most important and more so than smaranam. In the beginning stages of one’s devotional life this is certainly the case."
Actually many devotees say chanting is most important, as well as more important and efficacious than smaranam, and that it is not 'just for the beginning stages of one's devotional life.' Here are a few of those 'devotees' who explain the science in more detail:
[Lord Caitanya to Sanatana Goswami]: "Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods are the best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Krsnaa and ecstatic love for Him. Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead."
"Chanting the holy name is the chief means of attaining love of Godhead. JIva Goswami in Bhakti Sandarbha (270)
"‘Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant harinama. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offences, one very easily obtains the most valuable jewel of prema.' Sri Caitanya's instructions in the Antya-lila, 4.71
"Kirtana has been described as the most important of the nine limbs of bhakti. This is especially true in Kali-yuga." Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma.
"Talking together afterwards, Vijaya and Vrajanatha agreed that they were not satisfied with the answers they had received. Vrajanatha commented, "Uncle, I have pondered over this topic for quite some time and I have come to the conclusion that taking the shelter of krsna-nama is the most beneficial and auspicious practice for the jiva. The Lord of our hearts, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, came into this sacred land of Mayapura-dhama for the sole purpose of propagating suddha-krsna-nama. In fact, just yesterday, Srila Gurudeva repeated the point that of all the different limbs of bhakti, chanting sri-nama is the most important." Jaiva Dharma
"Sravanam, kirtanam, and smaranam constitute the backbone of bhakti; all the other limbs of bhakti are included within these three. Amongst the three processes, kirtanam is the most efficacious because sravanam and smaranam can be practised as parts of kirtanam." Jaiva Dharma.
"The following statements prove that the process connecting the devotee to his cherished devotional sentiments (bhava-sambandhi) must be done without intenrruption. Namani rupani tadarthakani gayan vilajjo vicaredasangah, "discard bashfulness and spurn society, live by glorifying with sweet hymns the self-illuminating holy name of Krsna and His sublime beauty." And again, srnvanti gayanty gayanty abhiksnasha, smaranti nandanti tabehitam janaah, "Your devotees experience supreme exhilaration by incessantly hearing, chanting, glorifying, and remembering Your spotless character." With this in mind, smarana (remembering), previously described as being a prominent devotional activity, must be placed under the auspice of the kirtana discipline. In Kali-Yuga, kirtana as devotional service is the most important devotional practice. For this reason all the scriptures unanimously declare that is the foremost devotional discipline." Srila Visvantha Cakravati Thakura in Ragavartma Candrika.
"Of the many ways to chant Krsna’s glories, foremost is His nama sankirtana. It is deemed the best because it can evoke at once the treasure of pure love for Krsna." BB 2.3.158
COMMENTARY by Sanatana Goswami
"Besides nama-sankirtana, chanting of the Lord’s names, there are other ways of performing kirtana, such as reciting the Vedas and Puranas, speaking one’s own narrations of pastimes of the Lord, singing devotional songs, and offering prayers. Nama-sankirtana, however, is the best of all, because it can at once independently awaken love of God in the heart. Lord Visnu’s messengers are personally convinced of this, and as implied by the unspecific expression matam (“it is considered”), this is also the opinion of many other spiritual authorities."
"Appearing mainly in the sense of speech, the Lord’s name gives pleasure to the chanter and to others. So even greater than meditation on the Lord is His nama-sankirtana." BB 2.3.163
"The sankirtana of Krsna’s names is praised as the best and most powerful means to attain the treasure of krsna-prema. It is like a potent mantra that can attract precious objects from a distance." BB.2.3.164
"Because nama sankirtana invariably leads to the treasure of pure love for the Lord, true connoisseurs of devotional service consider nama sankirtana the very fruit of bhakti." BB 2.3.165
COMMENTARY According to many pure devotees, nama-sankirtana is not only the best means of devotional service but the final perfection itself. Of course, prema is the final goal of bhakti, but nama-sankirtana so quickly and infallibly leads to prema that the two are considered virtually identical. Wherever prema is seen to have developed, one can presume that nama-saìkirtana must have been performed. Nama-sankirtana is the necessary and sufficient cause of prema.
"Chanting is the most important of all spiritual activities. (Visnu Yamala, cited in Prema Vivarta)
And just to remind us, here are some other acaryas on the topic of constant chanting:
Srila Vrindavan Das Thakura - Day and night, twenty-four hours, in all conditions, both sleeping and waking, even while taking food, simply utter the name of Krishna. CB
Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji - If you want to achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness, you must take a vow to chant a minimum of two hundred thousand or otherwise one hundred thousand of holy names every day, and you must execute that without fail. Before you retire at night you must finish this specific number of rounds, then you can achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness.
Sri Jagadananda Pandita - Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura. Prema Vivarta
Srila Narottama das Thakura - Rupamala, the queen of a distant country became so happy on getting initiation from Shrila Narottama dasa Thakura that she took a vow to take 100,000 Harinama (64 rounds of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra) daily.
Sri Rasikananda - When Shri Rasikananda was a child, he did not waste time playing games like other children. Rather, he would meditate on the maha-mantra. His daily practice was to chant 100,000 Holy Names (64 rounds). He would refuse to accept his mother’s foodstuffs until he completed his above chanting.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - In any case, one must chant krsna-nama continuously. Raghunatha dasa Babaji JD. Also, one should certainly chant Harinama japa at all times.
But it is not only that constant, incessant chanting is required for success, and that it continues once perfected. The acaryas also repeatedly state that the whole process of raganuga bhakti is a very specific one which first definitely requires purification by chanting constantly, BEFORE SMARANAM, thus all the instructions given by the Lord and the acaryas on this topic, including incessant chanting as the only means to free from nama aparadha, precede instructions on smaranam. Nama tattva always preceded discussions on rasa tattva, both in Harinama Cintamani and in Jaiva Dharma, and those exalted personalities who were instructed in that manner chanted incessant harinama prior to instruction. This is the actual science:
"Following the scriptural rules and regulations, engage your tongue and your mind in carefully cultivating Lord Krsna's nama (holy names), rupa (divine forms), guna (transcendental qualities), and sucarita (wonderful pastimes). This should be done according to the recommended order of ascending progression."
"The word nirbandha means that a practitioner should chant sixteen names thirty two syllables mahamantra on a Tulasi bead for one hundred and eight times. Chanting four rounds is called one grantha. One should start with one grantha and gradually increase the number to sixteen granthas or sixty four rounds. That will make a prescribed numbers of one hundred thousand holy names. By gradually increasing the number of chanting the holy name to three hundred thousand times, one will spend his entire time simply in chanting the holy names. All previous acaryas have attained perfections by following this order of the Lord." SBVT
"The devotee attains the blessed stage of prema vowing to incessantly chant the holy name of His dearmost Lord. " Madhurya Kadambini
Sanata Kumara to Narada Muni:
"Therefore, his first step towards advancing in Krsna consciousness should be to disassociate himself from non-devotees. Taking complete shelter of the holy name, he should simply chant. By the mercy of the holy name one becomes delivered from nescience and confusion; his offenses vanish, and he eels pure joy. Once freed from offenses to the holy name, he profoundly experiences the first stirrings of krsna-prema within his heart."
"When one realizes the beautiful form of Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana through continual chanting of the name, that is compared to the partially opened flower. Continuing sadhana further, when Krsna's sixty-four qualities become revealed in the name, that is compared to the fragrance from the half-opened flower. When one realizes the eternal pastimes of Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana, the flower is in full bloom. Then, by the great mercy of the name, the original energies of hladini (bliss) and samvit (consciousness) belonging to the spiritual world, whose prime embodiment is Radharani, unite in the form of bhakti-devi and descend upon the small jiva, who possesses only a small portion of hladini and samvit energy. From the transcendental realm, bhakti-devi reveals to the jiva the full rasa in the name, and by her mercy the jiva takes on his spiritual body and enters into the pastimes and tastes rasa." SBVT
"The path for attaining rasa is as follows: The jiva who has attained faith in bhakti receives a pure Vaisnava guru. That guru gives the maha-mantra. The jiva will take the mantra, either in the form of smarana (remembering the name) or kirtana (chanting the name), regulating himself by counting on Tulasi beads. Gradually, as his craving for the name increases, he will increase to 3 x 64 rounds. Of the two forms of taking the name, kirtana is the more powerful, for in that process are combined sravana, kirtana and smarana, and by it the senses of the jiva dance in joy. By taking shelter of any of the nine processes of bhakti, one progresses in devotion, but of the nine processes, chanting is the best. Those who have an attraction for Deity worship will reach perfection only by also engaging in hearing and chanting the name. But those who have exclusive attraction for the name need only engage in hearing, chanting and remembering the name. If one executes these three processes nicely, all the other nine processes of bhakti -- serving the lotus feet, praying, servitude, and complete self-surrender -- can also be easily accomplished."
"With faith that the name and Krsna are nondifferent, and avoiding the ten offenses, the effects of the name will be perceived. By clear chanting and remembering of the name, one will find attraction and joy in the name. Then, one will either meditate on a form of Krsna or constantly take darsana of His murti along with one's chanting, delving deeper and deeper into the name. When one has succeeded in realizing the form of Krsna in the name, one will then meditate on Krsna's qualities while chanting, one will meditate on a pastime of Krsna's with the aid of a specific mantra. When all four elements become one, one will begin to perceive rasa in the name. One will perfect the rasa by meditating on the eightfold pastimes of Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana. Gaining one's spiritual body by the mercy of the guru, one will enter into the pastimes with the associates of Radharani, and according to the directions of the sakhis, one will serve Radha and Krsna in ecstasy. This service in the conjugal mood is the most brilliant thing in the spiritual world, and is obtainable by the jiva by the practice of bhakti. There are even higher stages than this, but it is not possible to describe them by mere words. These things will be revealed by the mercy of Krsna."
"The specific process is now described. To receive a spiritual body in conjugal rasa one must culture eleven specific items in one's identity: one's relationship, age, name, bodily color, membership in a particular group, dress, order, residence, highest expectation in service and the protecting gopi under whom one serves. These items are perfected through five stages. First, one will approach a guru who has realized Krsna's eternal pastimes and the eleven items in eternal service. Upon hearing the eightfold pastimes of Radha and Krsna, one inquires how to realize that state. The guru then describes the eleven items by which one can enter the pastimes. This is called sravana-dasa."
"The guru will then choose the particular spiritual identity of the disciple according to the tendency and attraction of the disciple. If the disciple does not have a natural taste in one bhava, he can request another from the guru. When finally one's spiritual identity fits, he vows to the guru never to give it up. This is called varana-dasa (the accepting stage). The disciple will then practice remembering his given identity in his heart. This smarana-dasa (stage of remembering) is divided into five levels. First one tries to remember the eightfold pastimes, but the mind wanders. This is smarana. When one's practice becomes steady, it is called dharana. When one can meditate on all aspects of the desired object, it is called dhyana. When this dhyana becomes continual, it is called anusmrti. When this becomes perfect, it is called samadhi."
"If these stages are followed progressively in smarana, one will quickly come to the stage of apana (possession), where the eleven items are realized as one's constitutional state. However, if one is busy making an exterior show, but does not cultivate fixing one's identity within, he cannot perfect this stage. But fixing one's identity is natural, since the jiva has simply forgotten his perfect stage when entering the material realm and body, desiring his own pleasure, and proportionately as one increases his practice of remembering his natural state, material designation and identification will decrease.
"One can reach apana-dasa either from raganuga sadhana, where scriptural rules are minimal, or through vaidhi-sadhana, where relying on suitable rules from scripture is predominant. If one progresses through the stages of faith, practice, purification, steadiness, taste and attachment, in either vaidhi or raganuga-sadhana, one then comes to the stage of bhava, preliminary prema. It is at this point that one attains apana-dasa. At this stage, beyond the category of sadhana-bhakti, when scriptural rules will be discarded as troublesome to one's service, conceptions of raganuga and vaidhi will both be discarded. "Here, one's identification with the material body will vanish and identification with one's spiritual body will predominate. In that spiritual body (svarupa-siddhi) one will always see Vrndavana and serve Radha and Krsna. This final stage is called sampatti-dasa. By Krsna's mercy, suddenly one's material body, mind, intelligence and false ego will be cast off and one will appear in a pure spiritual body, serving Radha and Krsna along with Their eternal associates. The jiva can achieve this fifth stage in perfecting rasa by taking the name and becoming purified.
"Therefore, the jiva with faith should take up chanting of the name seriously and constantly in good association. He will take superior Vaisnava association, avoid material association and reside away from material glare. By the strength of these three items, he will achieve his position of real glory." Haridasa said, "I am low, mean-minded and absorbed in material enjoyment, always refusing good association. Still, I am begging for causeless mercy to progress to the rasa stage of bhakti."
Saying this, Haridasa fell unconscious at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya. Harinama Cintamani.
Lord Caitanya said, "Listen, Haridasa, in the future people with evil minds will degrade these intimate pastimes, but those who are real devotees will understand the supreme teaching that you have given. Taking shelter of this knowledge and taking shelter of the name, they will chant the name and worship Krsna, far away from the materialists. The jiva will attain faith in bhakti through past accumulated sukrti, (devotional activity). It is hard for all jivas to obtain bhakti. Lead them on a direct path home. I have come to preach the yuga-dharma of the holy name. You are helping Me accomplish this activity by describing the full truth about the holy name."
"Whoever attains the full nectar of the touchstone of the holy name, worshiping Krsna in spontaneous emotion, has attained full success and full bliss. A worthless rascal, weeping, I hold that person's feet and beg that he distribute the bliss and let me drink forever just one paticle of the nectarean rasa". HC
"The fortunate ones who earnestly long to ascend the terrace of prema, do sincerely and incessantly chant the name of Krsna in the company of sadhus. They do not have any appetite for any other feature of devotion. When in a short time by the grace of the holy name the heart becomes closely attentive, the fruits of religious forbearance, control over sensual appetites, religious observances, withholding the breath by way of religious austerity, abstract religious contemplation, steady abstraction of the mind and indifference to external impressions are very easily gained without paying the least heed to any of these. The holy name alone is a complete suspension of the fleeting mental operations. The more the heart is transparent, the more the diverse pastimes of the spiritual kingdom play in it. The flow of the milk of this happiness is so very fast running that no other means can give even the smallest drop of it. The jivas should desire no other wealth than this grace of Krsna."
"The holy name is spiritual; wisdom, vows, meditation, abnegation, mental quietness, virtue, contrivance -- none of these can ever equal the name. Know it for certain that the holy name is the highest salvation, the holy name is the highest end, the holy name is the noblest and final beatitude, the holy name is existing eternally, the holy name alone is the supermost devotion, the holy name is the highest intellect, the holy name is the topmost priti and the holy name is the brightest remembrance. The holy name is the seed and the holy name is the fruit to jivas -- the holy name is their Lord and the holy name alone is the supermost object of their worship. The holy name is their preceptor."
"The Vedas have described the spirituality of the name of Krsna to be the highest truth. "O Lord! We have reasonably judged Your name to be higher than the highest and so we chant Your holy name. Nama-bhajana is not bound by any rule -- the holy name is beyond all virtuous acts -- He is spiritual -- He is virility and luster in a person. All the Vedas have been manifested from this holy name. The holy name is bliss, the holy name is ananda. We can excellently be devoted to Him. The holy name is worship and is to be worshiped; Your feet are to be held in veneration. Repeatedly we fall prostrate at Your lotus feet and anoint our bodies with the pollen thereof. In order to lead the soul to its highest stage, devotees mutually discuss the holy name and sing His glories. They believe Your name to be Caitanya in person, and always sing and hear kirtana which is identical with Your name -- they are purified by it. The holy name alone is sat, or ever-existing. The essence of the Vedas is the holy name, who is the Absolute Truth and whose form is sac-cid-ananda (sat -- ever-existing, cit -- knowing, and ananda -- all-bliss). O Visnu, it is only by the grace of Your name that we are capable of offering these hymns to You. So we should adore and pray to Your holy name alone." HC
So, the science of raganuga bhakti is all clearly explained here step by step. This is another reference that sums up the relationship between incessant chanting of harinama and perfection:
"Initiation into the chanting of the Holy Name does not require the execution of special vows like purascarana. Avoiding the offences to the Holy Name and the resultant namabhasa, the shadow of pure chanting, the sadhaka should embark upon incessant chanting. Continuous chanting, endeavouring to receive the Lord's mercy, and meditating on His transcendental form will gradually manifest His beautiful form along with His transcendental qualities. Thereafter, in the sadhaka's heart, His name, form and qualities will be always present. This leads to the gradual revelation of His pastimes. Soon, the spiritual sentiments of the Lord's pastimes begin to manifest. This rasa, spiritual taste, is the summit of spiritual realisation. Put simply, from the beginning of chanting, one should overcome nama-abhasa (semblance of pure chanting) and nama-aparadha (offensive chanting) and cultivate the sincere desire for relishing rasa; then quickly, spiritual sentiments (rasa) begin to stir within the heart." Dasa Mula Tattva SBVT
All acaryas concur on this one point - incessant chanting of the holy name is required to achieve success on the path of ragaunga bhakti, both as the means and the end. Additionally, in the science of raganuga, incessant chanting is required to first get free from nama aparadha, always precedes specific nitya lila smaranam instruction, and never stops once the perfectional meditation in that regard is achieved.
And that is why Srila Prabhupada says:
Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. Bg 9.31
Hope this helps.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa das
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 2:24:08 GMT -5
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:
When anarthas are destroyed while chanting the Lord's names, then the Lord's form, qualities, and pastimes automatically manifest. (Note the sequence - 'when,' 'then,' 'automatically')
We do not need to meditate artificially on these things.
Chanting the holy names closes the distance between our gross and subtle bodies and our perfected self.
As soon as we realize our constitutional position and begin to chant the Lord's pure name, we can see the transcendental form of the Lord face to face.
The holy names of the Lord revive the living entity's constitutional position and attract him to Krsna.
The holy names actually revive the living entity's constitutional nature and attract him to Krsna's transcendental nature.
Likewise, the holy names revive the living entities' constitutional activities and attract them to Krsna's pastimes.
All the required functions and activities of a chanter are included in his service to the holy name.
We can achieve all perfection simply by chanting Krsna's name.
Those who have chanted hari-nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things.
The beginners need not hear these topics or they will misunderstand.
These topics are for certain audiences, not for all.
Also, it is said, apana bhajana-katha, na kahibe jatha-jatha, 'One should not reveal one's bhajana to others.'
If we disregard this instruction of our previous acaryas then there may be a permanent fall from the realm of devotional service. (The Gaudiya, 1934)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 3:08:13 GMT -5
Dear Devotees,
This will be my last post, for reasons which will soon become clear.
Firstly, and as an aside, your statement: "All of SP's references to chanting constantly are not to be taken literally," I find to be quite an amazingly bold and strange statement. You didn't even say 'this one statement,' but instead you stated,
"ALL OF SRILA PRABHUPADA'S REFERENCES TO CHANTING CONSTANTLY ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY."
That is absolutely mind-boggling claim, considering the volumes of material he produced to say just that.
So, now the onus is on you, prabhu - on precisely what basis do you make such a claim?
You have made a massive accusation against Srila Prabhupada, that all his messages in regard to constantly chanting are figurative/ metaphorical/ exaggerated, etc. so you will definitely need to back that up. It completely turns upside down the basis of his entire preaching mission, nay, also that of Lord Caitanya, Who stated:
"Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead." Antya 4.71
"Do not expect honor, but offer all respect to others. Always chant the holy name of Lord Krsna, and within your mind render service to Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana. Antya 6.237
So this is the formula given by the Lord Himself. Please try to follow it. Ananyas cintayanto mam. Always, always chant Hare Krsna. Bhagavad-gita 9.22-23 -- December 8, 1966, New York
So exactly on what basis - guru, sadhu and sastric reference, please - do you make such a claim that EVERY SINGLE ONE of Srila Prabhupada's statements about constantly chanting are not to be taken literally?
Where does Srila Prabhupada say anywhere in his books, conversation, letters, etc., that any one (you say ALL of them) of his statements about chanting constantly, incessantly, etc., are NOT to be taken literally?
You MUST back this up, otherwise you should withdraw it, otherwise you will not absolutely not be able to maintain any integrity. It is very damaging thing to say about Srila Prabhupada without any evidence whatsoever, either from Srila Prabhupada, any acarya, and sastra, anything. Not only damaging to him, but potentially damaging to his movement.
Are you also thus implying that every other acarya (including Lord Caitanya) who said exactly the same thing as Srila Prabhupada did in this regard is also 'not to be taken literally?'
So where is your authority that such statements from Srila Prabhupada about constantly chanting are NOT to be taken literally?
You have made an absolutely bizarre claim which you must back up with some reference. Otherwise you will be exposed as a mental speculator. Please provide some sastric evidence, otherwise it is just your personal opinion. In fact, since you made this allegation about Srila Prabhupada himself, you should probably, just to be safe, find some references from Srila Prabhupada himself wherein he confirms that EVERY STATEMENT HE EVER MADE about chanting constantly, incessantly, etc., are NEVER TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. Because that is EXACTLY what you have accused His Divine Grace of doing.
In complete opposition to your unreferenced claim, Srila Prabhupada is in complete accordance with all the acaryas, as well as Lord Caitanya, on this subject of constant chanting to be taken completely literally:
Haridas Thakura: "Chant the Hare Krsna mantra without stopping."Antya 3.137
Srila Vrindavan Das Thakura - Day and night, twenty-four hours, in all conditions, both sleeping and waking, even while taking food, simply utter the name of Krishna. CB
Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji - If you want to achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness, you must take a vow to chant a minimum of two hundred thousand or otherwise one hundred thousand of holy names every day, and you must execute that without fail. Before you retire at night you must finish this specific number of rounds, then you can achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness.
Sri Jagadananda Pandita - Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura. Prema Vivarta
Sri Rasikananda - When Shri Rasikananda was a child, he did not waste time playing games like other children. Rather, he would meditate on the maha-mantra. His daily practice was to chant 100,000 Holy Names (64 rounds). He would refuse to accept his mother’s foodstuffs until he completed his above chanting.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura - In any case, one must chant krsna-nama continuously. JD. Also, one should certainly chant Harinama japa at all times.
There are 'LITERALLY' hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of statements repeating this message. The words used are incessantly, constantly, should, must, take a vow, will, etc., as I have shown in previous quotes. You keep saying that it is simply a 'recommendation' to chant constantly, like it is some sort of 'optional' practice. Srila Prabhupada always confirms this:
"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms in His Siksastaka, kirtaniyah sada harih: [Cc. Adi 17.31] one MUST chant the holy name of the Lord always, twenty-four hours a day." (Adi 17.212)
"If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Krsna is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra" Bg 8.5
"Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage." Bg 9.31
The words here are MUST, SHOULD. These words express necessity, something compulsory, something mandatory. If Srila Prabhupada, the previous acaryas and Lord Caitanya really meant to convey something else, that such constant chanting was simply 'optional' then they would have used other words, words such as 'optional,' 'elective,' 'at your discretion,' 'if you want,' 'it is not really necessary,' 'non-binding,' etc. However they did not do this.
While you are at it you might also want to show that all the statements of the previous acaryas and Lord Caitanya regarding constant chanting are also not to be taken literally, as that would strengthen your audacious statement.
We all await your response on this one.
To continue...
As shown by all the acaryas and as referenced in my previous posts, chanting constantly is part and parcel of the practice and perfection of raganuga bhakti. They also clearly state that mere engagement in smaranam of nitya lila, without such concomitant constant chanting, is insufficient to achieve perfection, and is an immature and incomplete understanding of the entire process and practice of raganuga bhakti:
"Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura. In your heart be absorbed in the asta-kaliya-lila service of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the bowers of Vrndavana."
"Externally, your devotional service is to always chant the name of Lord Krsna, and internally, constantly engage in serving Sri Sri Radha Krsna with your spiritual body." Lord Caitanya, quoted in Prema Vivarta.
"It is to be understood that any person who is constantly engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare -- has attained a transcendental affection for Krsna, and as such, in any condition of life, he remains satisfied simply by remembering the Lord's name in full affection and ecstatic love." NOD
This constant chanting is also symptomatic of one on the madhyama platform:
"Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that any Vaisnava who is constantly chanting the holy name of the Lord should be considered to have attained the second platform of Vaisnavism." Madhya 16.72
And is confirmed by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura:
O learned one, if you were to ask me, ‘Who is a Vaisnava?' my answer would be simply, ‘One who chants the names of Krsna purely.' There are three types of Vaisnavas: kanistha, neophyte, madhyama, intermediate, and uttama, most advanced. One who occasionally chants Krsna's names is a kanistha Vaisnava. One who constantly chants Krsna's names is a madhyama Vaisnava. An uttama Vaisnava spontaneously inspires others to chant Krsna's names by his very presence. According to the teachings of Sri Caitanya, one must strictly go by these symptoms to categorize Vaisnavas." JDH 2: The Nitya-dharma of the Living Entity Is Pure and Everlasting
And only such a devotee is really an effective preacher:
"The madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can awaken others to Krsna consciousness and engage them in duties whereby they can advance." Madhya 16.74
"A preacher is madhyama-adhikari, advanced devotee. He can preach." Garden Conversation -- June 27, 1976, New Vrindavan
My main point is that statements such as the following which recommend reading rasa lila are sometimes misunderstood:
"One who continuously hears, glorifies or writes poetry about this autumnal rasa lila and similar pastimes of Krsna described by other poets, first of all, even if he has the heart disease of material lust, he becomes imbued with prema. Then, by it’s effect, the disease of the heart is destroyed. Thus, it is understood here that this prema is independent; it is not weak or dependent like jnana-yoga.
...One who faithfully hears and glorifies Krsna’s rasa dance is described as learned, for he does not foolishly doubt, “How can krsna-prema appear if material lust is present?” Krsna-prema will definitely appear in that person who is devoid of foolishness, and who accepts the statements of scripture with full faith. Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary on the above verse in SB (10.33.39)
The reason is that some devotees tend to neglect to properly address the other relevant statements by the acaryas, on the necessary and accompanying practices relating to the constant chanting of the holy name, and which are definitely required in order for the good results of reading rasa lila (lust destroyed) to factually occur.
For example, in that very same commentary by SVCT he then states:
"However, krsna-prema will not appear within those who have no faith in Krsna or who offend the Holy Name."
So, if one is committing nama aparadha, has a lack of faith in Krsna, then simply hearing the autumnal rasa lila will not give krsna prema. That is exactly what he states. And how to get free from nama aparadha?
"Only incessant chanting of harinama can effect the purification of one who is infected with namaparadha. Indeed, the incessant chanting of harinama is the only way to achieve the prayojana of human life, krsna-prema." Harinama Cintamani
So, we can't ignore the other bits of the equation. There are many preconditions that need to be in place before the proper effects of reading rasa lila will occur and the acaryas give all this information. I have also provided it all there in my previous posts.
As explained by Uttamasloka prabhu, this whole process of raganuga bhakti and attaining krsna-prema is a great science. However it must be undertaken complete for it to be effective and the acaryas explain in great detail that chanting constantly is integral to success on this path. The acaryas also consistently state that smaranam of rasa lila is not sufficient in and of itself.
Of course, we can only chant constantly if we follow the instructions of the Lord to be more humble than the straw in the street and more tolerant than the tree. One who is puffed up cannot chant constantly. Interestingly, incessant chanting protects us from pride:
"To protect the brahmana, Sri Caitanya prabhu advised him to chant the Hare Krsna mantra incessantly. By doing so, he would never become unnecessarily proud." Cc 7.140-41, 146-47
So may we never become proud and reject Lord Caitanya's instructions in this regard.
"The word smarana (remembering) is important. Remembrance of Krsna is not possible for the impure soul who has not practiced Krsna consciousness in devotional service. To remember Krsna one should chant the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, incessantly, following in the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, being more tolerant than the tree, humbler than the grass and offering all respect to others without requiring respect in return. In such a way one will be able to depart from the body successfully remembering Krsna and so attain the supreme goal." NAM 2b23: By Chanting the Holy Name, One Returns Home, Back to Godhead"
I'll finish up by posting this beautiful section from Jaiva Dharma:
Vijaya, "Master, if one suddha-nama is potent enough to nullify all sins, then why is it necessary to chant incessantly?"
Raghunatha dasa Babaji, "The heart, consciousness, and demeanour of the nama-aparadhis are always materially contaminated, depriving them of their natural interest in Krsna. They develop distaste for the sadhus, spiritual topics, and eventually anything related with transcendence. Simultaneously, they develop an affinity for asat-sanga, misinterpretation of sastra, and immoral activities. However, non-stop harinama can progressively turn them away from these impediments on the path of bhakti. Therefore, eventually, without the contamination of asat-sanga, immorality, etc., their chanting will gradually become purified, and thus spirituality will grow stronger in their lives."
Vijaya, "Gurudeva, these nectarean instructions on nama-tattva are entering our hearts and inspiring us with an unrelenting zest for chanting sri-krsna-nama. We have now heard in detail about suddha-nama, namabhasa, and namaparadha, and will be eternally grateful to you for these nectarean explanations. If there is anything else you would like to tell us in conclusion on this topic of chanting harinama, we are eager to hear it."
Raghunatha dasa Babaji, "Srila Jagadananda Pandita has given us wonderful instructions in his book, Prema Vivarta. In the seventh chapter, he writes:
asadhu-sange bhai, krsna-nama nahi haya namaksara bahiraya bate, tabu nama kabhu naya
"‘My dear brothers, a person cannot purely chant krsna-nama in the company of non-devotees. The sound and the syllables may be uttered, but that is not real chanting.'
kabhu namabhasa haya, sada nama-aparadha e saba janibe bhai, krsna-bhaktir badha
"‘Chanting in this manner is at best namabhasa, because chanting in bad association is always mixed with namaparadha. Dear brother, kindly understand, these kinds of chanting -- namaparadha and namabhasa -- are detrimental to spiritual progress and cannot be considered pure krsna-bhakti.'
yadi karibe krsna-nama, sadhu-sanga kara bhukti-mukti-siddhi-vancha dure parihara
"‘If you really desire to chant krsna-nama purely, earnestly seek sadhu-sanga, the company of the pure devotees of Sri Krsna. Reject all unwanted cravings for sense enjoyments, liberation, mystic powers, and other material desires.' dasa aparadha tyaja mana-apamana anasaktye visaya bhunja ara laha krsna-nama
"‘Avoid the ten namaparadhas and rise above the dualities of honour and dishonour, and so on. Life in the material world is to be utilized in the service of Sri Krsna. Render service to Sri Krsna without attachment to mundane objects and chant krsna-nama constantly.'
krsna bhaktir anukula saba karaha svikara krsna-bhaktir pratikula saba kara parihara
"‘Accept everything favourable for executing krsna-bhakti as your very life and completely reject anything that is unfavourable for practising krsna-bhakti.'
jyana-yoga-cesta chada ara karma-sanga markata-vairagya tyaja yate deha-ranga
"‘Do not endeavour to attain mundane speculative knowledge, fruitive results, and mystic yoga-siddhis. False renunciation is called markata-vairagya, monkey renunciation, which simply aims covertly at bodily pleasures and comforts.'
krsna amaya pale, rakse -- jana sarva-kala atma-nivedana-dainye ghucao janjala
"‘Bear in mind that Sri Krsna always protects and maintains every jiva. With deep humility, submit your life and soul to the lotus feet of Sri Krsna, which will free you from unwanted material desires.'
sadhu paba kasta bada, jivera janiya sadhu-bhakta-rupe krsna aila nadiya
"‘The omniscient Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, knows how rarely the jiva may find actual sat-sanga, so He has come personally as a pure devotee to Nadiya.'
gora-pada asraya karaha buddhiman gora bai sadhu-guru keba ache an
"‘Therefore, all who are endowed with superior intelligence must take shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, because Sri Gauranga is the perfect sadhu and guru.'
vairagi bhai gramya-katha na sunibe kane gramya vartta na kahibe, jabe milibe ana
"‘My dear brothers who are in the renounced order neither listen to mundane prattles, nor participate in such discussions when you meet with them.'
svapne o na kara, bhai, stri-sambhasanagrhe stri chadiya, bhai, asiyacha bana
"‘Do not think of women, not even in dreams. The vows of your renounced order forbid female association; always remember you have renounced wife and home and come to the forest of Vrndavana to engage wholeheartedly in bhajan.'
jadi caha pranaya rakhite gaurangera sane chota-haridasera katha thake yena mane
"‘If you desire to maintain your relationship with Sri Gauranga, then remember constantly Chota Haridasa and why he was so strictly ostracised by the Lord Himself.'
bhala na khaibe, ara bhala na paribe hrdayete radha-krsna sarvada sevibe
"‘Refuse rich palatable food, expensive and fine clothes. Always remain humble and constantly serve the Couple Divine, Sri Sri Radha Krsna, in the depth of your heart.'
bada haridasera nyaya krsna-nama balibe badane asta-kala radha sevibe kunja-bane
"‘Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura. In your heart be absorbed in the asta-kaliya-lila service of Sri Sri Radha Krsna in the bowers of Vrndavana.'
grhastha, vairagi-dunhe bale gora-raya dekha bhai, nama vina jena dina nahi jaya
"‘The instructions of Sri Gauranga are for the grhastha as well as for the vairagi devotees. He said, ‘Take great care not to let a moment pass without uttering krsna-nama.'
bahu-anga sadhane, bhai, nahi prayojana krsna-namasraye suddha karaha jivana
"‘If you want to advance on the path of suddha-bhakti, not many rules and spiritual practices are necessary. Simply beg for the complete shelter of krsna-nama and thus purify your heart and consciousness.'
baddha-jive krpa kari, krsna haila namakali-jive daya kori' krsna haila gauradhama
"‘Sri Krsna descends to the material universe in the form of krsna-nama, simply out of compassion for the conditioned jivas. Moreover, not long ago, to display special mercy to the fallen jivas of Kali-yuga, Sri Krsna appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in Gaura-dhama, Navadvipa.'
ekanta sarala-bhave bhaja gaura-jana tabe ta' paibe, bhai, sri-krsna-carana
"‘So my dear brothers, serve the dear associates of Sri Gauranga with sincerity and a guileless heart. This will guarantee that you reach the safe harbour of the lotus feet of Sri Krsna.'
gaura-jana-sanga kara gauranga baliyahare krsna nama bala naciya naciya
"‘Glorify the magnanimity of Sri Caitanya and glorify His associates. Chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and dance in ecstasy.'
acire paibe bhai nama-prema-dhana yaha vilaite prabhur ‘nade' e agamana
"‘Very quickly, you will be favoured with the most treasured object, nama-prema. The Supreme Lord appeared in Nadiya solely to distribute this priceless treasure freely.'"
While Vijaya and Vrajanatha were listening to Srila Raghunatha dasa Babaji Maharaja ecstatically recite Prema Vivarta deep spiritual feelings stirred up in their hearts. After the recitation, Srila Raghunatha dasa Babaji Maharaja became silent, almost unconscious for a long period. Slowly, he came back to the present. With tears streaking down his cheeks, he stretched out his hands and clasping them around the heads of his two disciples began to sing the following bhajana:
krsna-nama dhare kata bala
"‘How marvellous and potent is krsna-nama!'
visaya-vasananale mora citta sada jvale, ravi-tapta maru-bhumi sama karna-randhra-patha diya, hrdi majhe pravesiya barisaya sudha anupama
"‘My heart constantly burns within the flames of material desire, Like the sun-scorched sands of the desert. Yet harinama mercifully enters through the gates of my ears, And showers cool divine nectar to embalm my heart.'
hrdaya haita bale, jihvara agreta cale sabda-rupe nace anuksana kanthe mora bhange svara, anga kampe thara thara sthira haite na pare carana
"‘My heart now sings out krsna-nama, And nama dances on the tip of my tongue, With ecstatic sound, echoing all around. My voice is faltering, my body shivers like a leaf, My feet, beyond control, dance without respite.'
cakse dhara, dehe gharma, pulakita saba carma, vivarna haila kalevara murcchita haila mana, pralayera agamana bhave sarva-deha jara-jara
"‘Tears cascade, perspiration fashions pearly drops, And the hairs stand erect upon my pale supine form. Conscious thoughts slip away, And the emotions of bhava plunder my core.'
kari eta upadrava, citte varse sudha-drava more dare premera sagare kichu na bujhite dila, more ta batula kaila mora citta-vitta saba hare
"‘O sacred nama, You disrupt my life, You fill my heart with manna sweet, You sweep me off my feet, And deposit me on the sublime waves of endless prema. I do not understand what is happening to me, I am confused, mad; my mind is in a whirl.'
lainu asraya jan'ra hena vyavahara tan'ra varnite na pari e sakala krsna-nama icchamaya jahe jahe sukhi haya sei mora sukhera sambala
"‘Is this His behaviour, whose shelter I have sought? I have no words, how may I describe Him? Nama is wilful, freer than the wind, Whatever makes Him happy, I treasure in my thoughts.'
premera kalika nama, adbhuta-rasera dhama hena bala karaye prakasa isat vikasi'punah, dekhaya nija-rupa-guna citta hari laya krsna pasa
"‘Nama, O blooming flower of prema, The saturated ambrosial trove, Delight me once again with Your dynamic force. Display even in droplets, Your wonder and beauty, Steal away my heart and offer it to Krsna.'
purna-vikasita hana, braje more jaya lana dekhaya more svarupa-vilasa more siddha-deha diya, krsna-pase rakhe giya e dehera kare sarba-nasa
"‘May You blossom in full glory and transport me to Vraja, Lifting up the gossamer curtains upon the stage of eternal time, To open my eyes to the amorous pastimes of Radha and Krsna, the Couple Divine. O give me my spiritual form and keep me next to Him, Destroy this despicable tabernacle that is shackling me.'
krsna-nama cintamani akhila-rasera khani nitya-mukta, suddha-rasamaya namera balai yata, sabha la'ye hai hata tabe mora sukhera udaya
"‘Glorious, wish-fulfilling gem is krsna-nama, A boundless cloud of ambrosial rain, Eternal, independent, and pure. O Lord! Crush all obstacles that check me from chanting Your nectarine name, So that I may soon welcome the dawn of pristine bliss.'"
The singing continued well into the night -- until Vijaya-kumara and Vrajanatha realized with a start that the song had stopped. They begged permission to leave Sri Raghunatha dasa Babaji Maharaja and then set off home, their hearts throbbing with joy.
And finally....
"Lord Caitanya said: 'I am giving you this maha-mantra: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Go and chant with sincere enthusiasm. By chanting this mantra you receive all the perfections of life, so continue to chant incessantly, for there are no rules or regulations for chanting the maha-mantra."' Caitanya Bhagavata
"If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Krsna is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare." Bg 8.5
Prabhupada: So we have to continue this chanting, either imperfectional stage or in the perfectional stage. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg. 9.14]. In the Bhagavad-gita, you will see that this kirtana is recommended continuously. Satatam. Satatam means always. Either in the imperfect stage or in the perfect stage, the process is one. It is not like the Mayavadis, that first of all you chant, and by chanting, when you become yourself God, then there is no chanting -- stop. This is Mayavada philosophy. This is not real, the position. Chanting will continue even in your highest perfectional stage. But that chanting and at the present moment chanting, there is little difference. Yes. September 14, 1968, San Francisco
May everyone attain success on the path of bhakti.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa das
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Post by niscala on Feb 15, 2015 21:13:54 GMT -5
Reading both Uttamasloka's and Vraja's quotes, makes clear the importance of chanting the holy names incessantly, or as much or as often as possible, but I don't see anywhere in the quotes where one lakh is given as a prerequisite for raganuga. Lobha is always the prerequisite given in the Goswami literature. How that lobha comes about is given as follows:
The appearance of that greed (lobha) is indicated when the intelligence does not depend on rules of scripture and logic, after realizing to some degree the sweetness of their (the inhabitants of Vraja) love through the process of hearing from the scriptures. BRS, 1.2.292
This method- hearing from the scriptures of the sweet lila of Krsna- as the means for evoking lobha is confirmed in Bhakti Sandharbha:
"By hearing about this rāga from scripture or from one’s teacher, one develops a taste for the actions of the rāgātmikā associates also, that are expressions of this rāgātmikā-bhakti. Then by adhering to the rāga of a particular associate of the Lord, according to one’s taste, one executes devotion, which is called rāgānugā. BS, Anuccheda 310
So hearing from the scriptures about the love of the gopis and Krsna, or the cowherd boys and Krsna, one develops a realization -to some degree- of the sweetness of their love. Then one wants to hear more, and gradually one is propelled more and more by taste, to read more and more about their pastimes.
If such reading impinges on the time devoted to chanting hare krsna mantra, the raganuga devotee is not concerned, nor should he be condemned or discouraged for that, as taste, not the need to follow regulative devotional principles, has become his impetus:
"Srila Rupa Goswami has personally given the following definition of lobha: When the heart yearns for the sweetness of the moods of Krishna and His eternal associates in Vraja, and one is not prompted by scriptural injunctions or logical arguments, then that is the definition of sacred greed. If one thinks “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Krishna of His associates the gopis in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures...
If such impetuses are there, then it cannot be justly called lobha. This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether he is qualified for the path of raganuga bhakti or not. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter,or seeing it, that greed will arise in him . RVC, 1.5
So, what are we to make of all the importance given by acaryas to incessant chanting, or chanting one lakh? As pointed out by Uttamasloka, the same acaryas gave initiation without a set number of rounds. Of course it is well known that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati said that whoever does not chant 64 rounds is fallen, but when one of his disciples said that he had no time to chant such a large number without neglecting his service, his guru asked "Are you chanting while doing your service?" to which he replied "oh yes, I try to chant all the time", and the guru confirmed that this was the important thing- whether counted or not is not important- the important things is to chant incessantly.
So it is not one or the other. One who has taste for the lila of Krsna will also have taste for His name, as both are non-different from Him. He will want to chant as much as possible and the chanting will be not dry or mechanical, but out of love and attachment. It will be an expression of his lobha.
"Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vrsnis and the Vrindavana denizens are called raganuga devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These raganuga devotees don't follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yasoda, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called raganuga."
So it is taste that propels a raganuga devotee forward, not a calculation that "Now I am chanting one lakh, now in the fifteen minutes left in my day, I am going to read and get a taste for raganuga". It does not work like that: "nor does the candidate ever consider whether he is qualified for the path of raganuga bhakti or not"
So the candidate for raganuga does not shoot himself in the foot, when attraction for reading the lila of the Lord arises in his heart. He should not let the flow of his emotions be stopped by himself or others, but continues to feed that attraction- by focussing more and more on both nama and lila The thought "You am not qualified. You are not chanting enough rounds" is attachment to the former stage of vaidhi, where everything is about rules, and not taste.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 22:14:16 GMT -5
Hare Krsna,
The science of raganuga has been misrepresented and misunderstood both in this book, as well as by others here on this forum. There are major philosophical flaws in the entire presentation. And as the basic premises are incorrect, it is an overall incomplete, immature and partial presentation at best.
A cheating proposal at worst.
Nama tattva, a crucial and essential part of achieving success on the path of bhakti, has been intentionally or unintentionally minimised, ignored, discarded and conveniently rejected, etc. and otherwise not been properly been addressed. The author and others state that "Well, we never see that 64 rounds is a prerequisite factor for reading rasa lila" or of "practicing raganuga bhakti," all the while conveniently ignoring Lord Caitanya's instructions (even Srila Prabhupada's specific instructions on that exact number) to chant a minimum of 64 rounds, as well as all the instructions from every acarya, including Srila Prabhupada to chant constantly and incessantly. Plus, they conveniently ignore the requirement to chant incessantly to get free from offenses and anarthas, and that such incessant chanting is a means and the end to achieve krsna-prema.
Without understanding the role and function of chanting the holy name, one’s will never even become free of anarthas and offenses, not to speak of thinking oneself is factually ‘following in the footsteps of the residents of Vraja.’
The fact is that statements of the author directly contradict the statements of his own spiritual master and of the acaryas on the relationship between constant chanting of the holy name and the science of raganuga. As such, not taking into consideration the other necessary requirements for success in this regard, one will fail in his attempt to go back home by following his explanations.
Merely mentally imagining, or ‘desiring,’ one is in nitya lila, or have a mental inclination/ curiosity to read rasa lila does not mean one is following in the mood of the goswamis. Curiosity to read rasa lila does not mean that one possesses genuine spiritual 'lobha.' One must also follow their example they demonstrated here on Earth as well. We tend to be lazy in that regard and simply think that reading rasa lila alone will make us qualified, whereas Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura states that reading rasa lila will have absolutely no effect if one is committing offenses, and the only way to get free from nama apradha is to chant incessantly. These instructions cannot be avoided, but it appears the author and posters do not want to admit this.
Basically they refuse to acknowledge or stress the science complete. The fact that we choose not to do what is required means we are simply unfortunate. “Only the fortunate adopt a lifestyle suitable to performing devotional service.” SBST.
Just because we don’t personally follow ALL the acaryas instructions on incessant chanting doesn't mean that we are automatically well-situated on the raganuga path. It means the opposite.
Basically, the author and others have failed to acknowledge the role of incessant chanting as a precursor to proper practice of raganuga bhajan, despite all the evidence of the acaryas to the contrary. Not even 64 rounds, but incessant chanting is required to successfully engage in raganuga bhakti. The (convenient) interpretation of one’s own spiritual master's words on this specific topic, without backing up personal opinions with guru, sadhu or sastra, is a sure sign of the disqualification of the author.
The evidence is that the science as presented here is an actual deviation from that given by the acaryas. It is a cheapening of the actual process.
One basic misunderstanding is from equating vaidhi bhakti with chanting the holy name., ultimately to be discarded. Another related error is equating 'giving up the following the regulative practices' (a factor on the raganuga path) with giving up or minimising the importance of always chanting of the holy name. Statements such as ‘there are no hard and fast rules’ do not mean to not chant incessantly. It means the opposite, as confirmed by Lord Caitanya.
"There are no hard and fast rules for chanting, so chant always." (CB Madhya-khanda 23.78)
This is a science, after all and one must follow all the instructions, not just pick and choose those that are suitable for one’s preconceived notions of ‘practicing raganuga.’
As mentioned, there are a philosophical flaws and unsubstantiated premises in the presentation given by author which seriously undermine the credibility of the methodology he uses to make his points. For example, he states in his book that 'some devotees think that kirtan is more important than smaranam' whereas that is exactly what all the acaryas state. In direct opposition to his statement, the acaryas instead say:
"By incessantly hearing, chanting, glorifying, and remembering Your spotless character." With this in mind, smarana (remembering), previously described as being a prominent devotional activity, must be placed under the auspice of the kirtana discipline. In Kali-Yuga, kirtana as devotional service is the most important devotional practice. For this reason all the scriptures unanimously declare that is the foremost devotional discipline."(Srila Visvantha Cakravati Thakura in Ragavartma Candrika.)
"Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead." (Caitanya-caritamrta Antya 4.70-71)
"Chanting the holy name is the chief means of attaining love of Godhead. (Srila Jiva Goswami in Bhakti Sandarbha)
""Sravanam, kirtanam, and smaranam constitute the backbone of bhakti; all the other limbs of bhakti are included within these three. Amongst the three processes, kirtanam is the most efficacious because sravanam and smaranam can be practised as parts of kirtanam" Jaiva Dharma.
"Chanting of His names is the supreme method for attaining krsna-prema." (BB 2.1.104-105)
"Appearing mainly in the sense of speech, the Lord’s name gives pleasure to the chanter and to others. So even greater than meditation on the Lord is His nama-sankirtana." (BB 2.3.163)
"The sankirtana of Krsna’s names is praised as the best and most powerful means to attain the treasure of krsna-prema. It is like a potent mantra that can attract precious objects from a distance." (BB.2.3.164)
"Because nama sankirtana invariably leads to the treasure of pure love for the Lord, true connoisseurs of devotional service consider nama sankirtana the very fruit of bhakti." (BB 2.3.165)
COMMENTARY According to many pure devotees, nama-sankirtana is not only the best means of devotional service but the final perfection itself. Of course, prema is the final goal of bhakti, but nama-sankirtana so quickly and infallibly leads to prema that the two are considered virtually identical. Wherever prema is seen to have developed, one can presume that nama-saìkirtana must have been performed. Nama-sankirtana is the necessary and sufficient cause of prema.
"Chanting is the most important of all spiritual activities." (Visnu Yamala, cited in Prema Vivarta)
"If the sense of speech, which sets all the external and internal senses in motion, is brought under constant control, then the mind becomes stable and can properly engage in transcendental remembrance of the Lord. Remembrance thus develops as the fruit of chanting.(BB 2.3.149)
"Kirtana has been described as the most important of the nine limbs of bhakti. This is especially true in Kali-yuga" Jaiva Dharma
"Talking together afterwards, Vijaya and Vrajanatha agreed that they were not satisfied with the answers they had received. Vrajanatha commented, "Uncle, I have pondered over this topic for quite some time and I have come to the conclusion that taking the shelter of krsna-nama is the most beneficial and auspicious practice for the jiva. The Lord of our hearts, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, came into this sacred land of Mayapura-dhama for the sole purpose of propagating suddha-krsna-nama. In fact, just yesterday, Srila Gurudeva repeated the point that of all the different limbs of bhakti, chanting sri-nama is the most important." Jaiva Dharma
These statements completely refute the author's personal unsubstantiated statements. He says one thing, the acaryas say the opposite. Who are we to believe?
Additionally, the statement by the author that 'All of Srila Prabhupada's statements on constant chanting are not to be taken literally" without providing a single shred of evidence that even one of those hundreds of statement should not be taken literally, is proof enough that he is way off track, and not in line with even his own spiritual master and all the acaryas. It is simply the author's personal opinion and mental speculation. Srila Prabhupada always completely concurs with all the acaryas on that very point.
We can definitely see that in the personal lives, practices and teachings of the acaryas, as well as the orders from Lord Caitanya, that minimum 100000 names is definitely part and parcel of achieving success on the raganuga path. (Such behaviour and instruction always precedes raganuga instruction as well):
Srila Vrindavan Das Thakura
"Day and night, twenty-four hours, in all conditions, both sleeping and waking, even while taking food, simply utter the name of Krishna." CB
Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji
"If you want to achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness, you must take a vow to chant a minimum of two hundred thousand or otherwise one hundred thousand of holy names every day, and you must execute that without fail. Before you retire at night you must finish this specific number of rounds, then you can achieve perfection in Krishna consciousness."
Sri Jagadananda Pandita
"Day and night, chant krsna-nama incessantly like Srila Haridasa Thakura." Prema Vivarta
"In any case, one must chant krsna-nama continuously. Raghunatha das Babaji JD
"Also, one should certainly chant Harinama japa at all times." SBVT
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura states, "liberated souls have no duty other than to chant the Lord’s name."
"THE PATH FOR ATTAINING RASA is as follows: The jiva who has attained faith in bhakti receives a pure Vaisnava guru. That guru gives the maha-mantra. The jiva will take the mantra, either in the form of smarana (remembering the name) or kirtana (chanting the name), regulating himself by counting on Tulasi beads. Gradually, as his craving for the name increases, he will increase to 3 x 64 rounds." HC
"These prema-ruruksu devotees chant and tell their beads three lacs (3 x 64 rounds) in every twenty-four hours, and they find such happiness in the holy name that they cannot spare a moment without Him; then, when no time can be kept in sleep, etc., they become INCESSANT in their bhajana." HC
"WHEN one’s mind desires to chant and remember one hundred thousand holy names (64 rounds) daily and furthur desires to slowly increase it to three hundred thousand and when one’s mind becomes very attached and eager to complete the fixed number of rounds daily and pushes one to complete the sankhya everyday, then it is understood that very soon the laziness or apathy in chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra will vanish by the mercy of the devotees and one’s chanting will bring one the desired fruit of pure love for Krishna." HC
"Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises that the devotee should chant always, 24 HOURS." Srila Prabhupada, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.28.18 -- October 27, 1975, Nairobi
"There are many regulative principles in the sastras and directions given by the spiritual master. These regulative principles should act as servants of the basic principle—that is, one should always remember Krsna and never forget Him. This is possible when one chants the Hare Krsna mantra. Therefore one must strictly chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra twenty-four hours daily". Madhya 22.113
"In order to be recognized by Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one should chant the holy name of the Lord continuously, twenty-four hours a day." SB 4.23.7
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, "Always discuss Srimad-Bhagavatam AND constantly chant the holy name of Lord Krsna. In this way you will be able to attain liberation very easily, and you will be elevated to the enjoyment of love of Godhead." Madhya 25.154
"In conclusion, one who chants the holy name of the Lord constantly is guaranteed to return home, back to Godhead, without a doubt." Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.2.49
"By following these principles of devotional service strictly, chanting twenty-four hours a day the maha-mantra -- Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare -- one makes positive progress in spiritual life and ultimately becomes completely fit to see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face." Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.21.42
"Without being unnecessarily agitated, if we take to the process of Krsna consciousness by constantly chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare, the cycle of birth and death can be stopped for good." Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.31.21
"We should constantly chant the holy names of the Lord, the Hare Krsna maha-mantra" Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 25.197-98
“Only those devotees are sad-grihasthas (true and ideal householders) who chant 1,00,000 names of Krishna (64 rounds) daily. The pure devotees should accept prasada (foodstuffs) only in the homes of these sad-grihasthas and nowhere else. Sadhu-vritti, Sajjana Toshani 11/12:
“When one’s mind desires to chant and remember one hundred thousand holy names (64 rounds) daily and furthur desires to slowly increase it to three hundred thousand and when one’s mind becomes very attached and eager to complete the fixed number of rounds daily and pushes one to complete the sankhya everyday, then it is understood that very soon the laziness or apathy in chanting the Hare Krishna maha-mantra will vanish by the mercy of the devotees and one’s chanting will bring one the desired fruit of pure love for Krishna.”
"The fortunate ones who earnestly long to ascend the terrace of prema, do sincerely and incessantly chant the name of Krsna in the company of sadhus. They do not have any appetite for any other feature of devotion." HC: Nama-bhajana
"The devotee attains the blessed stage of prema vowing to incessantly chant the holy name of His dearmost Lord. The ecstacy of prema melts his heart and he laughs, cries, becomes restless, sings and danceslike a madman, oblivious of everything and everyone around him." SBVT
"If one chants with a sluggish mind, or after chanting a little, one has to stop before finishing his round, it is called laziness. From this, one's taste for the name cannot develop. The remedy for this is to take association of Vaisnavas who do not waste time in material activity, but constantly chant and remember the holy name, being absorbed only in the name. One should follow in their footsteps. When one sees how the true Vaisnava or sadhu does not waste time in useless pursuits, he will develop a taste to do likewise. In his mind he will think, "very good." By this, enthusiasm will come to the lazy mind and he will overcome the offense of laziness or inertia. One will become determined to increase his chanting everyday. By this eagerness in his rounds and by the mercy of the devotees, the offense of inertia will quickly go away. HC: Chapter 12 - Inattention While Chanting
"It is the duty of a grhastha to constantly chant the holy names of the Lord and serve the Vaisnavas and the Lord with the help of his relatives and by the wealth he has earned through his pious life." SBL 12: Sadhu-vrtti
"Among the ways of executing devotional service, the nine prescribed methods are the best, for these processes have great potency to deliver Krsna and ecstatic love for Him. Of the nine processes of devotional service, the most important is to always chant the holy name of the Lord. If one does so, avoiding the ten kinds of offenses, one very easily obtains the most valuable love of Godhead." SBL 12: Sadhu-vrtti
“The path of bhajan displayed by the previous mahajana’s is to constantly chant the holy names of Hari with firm determination and show compassion to all living entities.” (Sajjana Tosani 11/6)
"What is the necessity for studying such voluminous works as the Vedic literature and its corollaries? And why do people visit innumerable holy pilgrimage sites? One who truly desires to liberate his soul from illusion, let him constantly chant Lord Govinda's (Krsna's) holy name. Penances and vows are insignificant activities compared to chanting
"Whether you are a family person living at home or a sannyasi living in the forest, constantly chant and call out "Hari! Hari!" Whether you are in a condition of happiness or distress, do not forget this chanting-just fill your lips with the hari-nama." Gitavali
“Performance of karma is like a dark well compare to the ocean of mellows of the Lord’s holy names. One should give up all kinds of worship and constantly chant the holy names of Hari in the association of the devotees who are attached to chanting the holy names. This is most desirable.” (Sajjana Tosani 11/6)
"Mahaprabhu's order is simply this-that everyone should incessantly chant harinam. Incessantly chant harinam-the meaning of this command is not that people should always chant the holy name while completely desisting from all bodily activities, household duties, and dealings with others. By ceasing all actions of bodily maintenance, the body will be destroyed in a short while. In the context of this command, then, how should one engage in harinam? Since the Lord gave humanity the command to incessantly take the holy name, then the true meaning is that everyone, whether grihastha or sannyasi, vanaprastha or brahmachari, brahmana or kshatriya, vaisya or sudra, low-born or mleccha, and so forth-all people should remain in their respective situations and chant harinam. Verily this is the only meaning. It is necessary to nicely remain in one's own natural situation because that position facilitates the proper performance of one's activities for bodily maintenance, and thus the body will not expire untimely. Bodily maintenance requires dealing with others. It is essential that all such actions be observed in a pure and undisturbed fashion. Then all of these things will be conducted very nicely. "
“Except during the time of sleep, to always chant the holy names of the Lord during taking care of the bodily activities, and at all other times, is called ‘constant chanting of the holy names.’” (Jaiva Dharma Chapter 23)
“If one commits offenses against the Deity worship, the holy names can counteract them. The Nämäparädhas are counteracted only by chanting the holy names of Hari. Constant chanting of the holy names awards all perfections.” (Bhajana Rahasya)
"Lord Gauranga continued-I call such a person a laksheshvara. I only accept meals in such a person's house. I never go anywhere else." CB
Purport by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:
"The devotees of Lord Shri Chaitanya never talk with such non-devotees. They never do friendship with those who are engaged in the cultivation of karma, jnana or other desires which are devoid of bhakti.
"Those who don't accept this vow of chanting 100,000 names daily, fall down even more although they were fallen in the first place (due to the contamination of Kali-yuga). Thus their propensity for enjoying the senses and sense-objects continually and steadily increases and ultimately they are not able to render any kind of service even to the most merciful Lord Gaurasundera.
"This is the precise reason why the real Gaudiya-bhaktas do not accept any other ideal (adarsa) in Gaura-bhakti or Krishna-bhakti except the process of chanting 100,000 names of the maha-mantra daily.
"Those spiritual aspirants who are already fallen or will fall down from spiritual life in the future are averse to this sole means of deliverance called nama-bhajana, which is the worship of the sound incarnation of God in the form of chanting 100,000 names of the the Holy Names daily. Coming under the sway of their averseness to chant laksha-nama daily, they duplicitously invent (chalana) other means of devotional service (bhajana) to justify their not chanting 100,000 names daily but it is to be clearly understood that by this action they will not achieve anything auspicious (mangala) in their spiritual life."
"If we wish to attain pure devotion, we must be freed from material bondage by serving the Lord without duplicity and under the guru's guidance. Unless one is liberated one cannot serve the Lord properly. One must therefore always chant the holy names while surrendered to the spiritual master. Always remember that chanting is the best form of krsna-bhajana. By chanting one attains all perfection. If one simply serves the holy names one can understand everything about the topmost kingdom of worship." SBST
It is clear that to become qualified to factually enter Vraja lila requires more than a sentimental attachment to reading rasa lila. Purification by incessant chanting is a necessary prequalification. In the Nectar of Devotion, Chapter Sixteen (Spontaneous Devotion), Srila Prabhupada explains:
"Persons desiring to follow in the footsteps of such eternal devotees of the Lord as the Vrsnis and Vrndavana denizens are called raganuga devotees, which means that they are trying to attain to the perfection of those devotees. These raganuga devotees do not follow the regulative principles of devotional service very strictly, but by spontaneous nature they become attracted to some of the eternal devotees such as Nanda or Yasoda, and they try to follow in their footsteps spontaneously. There is a gradual development of the ambition to become like a particular devotee, and this activity is called raganuga."
The problem is that some devotees are thinking that not 'following the regulative principles of devotional service' means we don't need to chant constantly to achieve the benefits of reading rasa sastra. “Just read,” they say, “lust will disappear,” they say. However, Srila Prabhupada continues:
"We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (Vrndavana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha- nivrtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination."
So here he states we cannot follow the denizens of Vraja unless we are freed from material contamination. And exactly how does anartha nivritti occur?
"To become actually cleansed externally and internally, one should chant the holy name of the Lord, Hare Krsna, or Visnu, constantly." (SB 3.32.42)
"When anarthas are destroyed while chanting the Lord's names, then the Lord's form, qualities, and pastimes automatically manifest. We do not need to meditate artificially on these things. Chanting the holy names closes the distance between our gross and subtle bodies and our perfected self. As soon as we realize our constitutional position and begin to chant the Lord's pure name, we can see the transcendental form of the Lord face to face. The holy names of the Lord revive the living entity's constitutional position and attract him to Krsna. The holy names actually revive the living entity's constitutional nature and attract him to Krsna's transcendental nature. Likewise, the holy names revive the living entities' constitutional activities and attract them to Krsna's pastimes. All the required functions and activities of a chanter are included in his service to the holy name. We can achieve all perfection simply by chanting Krsna's name."
It is a scientific progression. That is why the acaryas state:
"Those who have chanted hari-nama for fifteen or twenty years should know such things. The beginners need not hear these topics or they will misunderstand. These topics are for certain audiences, not for all. Also, it is said, apana bhajana-katha, na kahibe jatha-jatha, 'One should not reveal one's bhajana to others.' If we disregard this instruction of our previous acaryas then there may be a permanent fall from the realm of devotional service." (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, from an article in The Gaudiya, 1934)
This is confirmed by Srila Visvantha Cakravati Thakura in his very own statements on how to practice raganuga bhakti:
"One who continuously hears, glorifies or writes poetry about this autumnal rasa lila and similar pastimes of Krsna described by other poets, first of all, even if he has the heart disease of material lust, he becomes imbued with prema. Then, by it’s effect, the disease of the heart is destroyed. Thus, it is understood here that this prema is independent; it is not weak or dependent like jnana-yoga.
...One who faithfully hears and glorifies Krsna’s rasa dance is described as learned, for he does not foolishly doubt, “How can krsna-prema appear if material lust is present?” Krsna-prema will definitely appear in that person who is devoid of foolishness, and who accepts the statements of scripture with full faith.
In that very same commentary by SVCT he then states:
"However, krsna-prema will not appear within those who have no faith in Krsna or who offend the Holy Name."
So, if one is committing nama aparadha, has a lack of faith in Krsna, then simply hearing the autumnal rasa lila will not give krsna prema. That is exactly what he states. And how to get free from nama aparadha?
"Only incessant chanting of harinama can effect the purification of one who is infected with namaparadha. Indeed, the incessant chanting of harinama is the only way to achieve the prayojana of human life, krsna-prema." Harinama Cintamani
So, we can't ignore the other bits of the equation. There are many preconditions that need to be in place before the proper effects of reading rasa lila will occur and the acaryas give all this information. The fact that the devotees here fail to appreciate these facts, and don’t practice the science properly, is a sure sign they are not properly practicing raganuga, nor teaching others the correct method.
Equating 'no longer following the regulative principles' to mean that one should minimise/ reduce chanting or not chant incessantly is incorrect. As is equating 'fear-based' bhakti with chanting the holy name.
Additionally, the statements from Srila Prabhupada regarding our qualification to read rasa sastra depend on the following:
"To achieve the highest success in life by becoming a gosvami and then a pure devotee of the Lord, one must follow the instructions known as Upadesamrta, which have been given by Srila Rupa Gosvami. Srila Rupa Gosvami has given many other books, such as Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Vidagdha-madhava and Lalita-madhava, but Upadesamrta constitutes the first instructions for neophyte devotees. One should follow these instructions very strictly. Then it will be easier to make one's life successful. Hare Krsna." (NoI Preface)
So, FIRST understand the instructions in NOI. And in NOI, Srila Prabhupada states the following about the science of smaranam…
"When one fully engages in chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he gradually realizes his own spiritual identity. Unless one faithfully chants the Hare Krsna mantra, Krsna does not reveal Himself: sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah. [Brs. 1.2.234] We cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by any artificial means. We must engage faithfully in the service of the Lord. Such service begins with the tongue (sevonmukhe hi jihvadau), which means that we should always chant the holy names of the Lord and accept krsna-prasada. We should not chant or accept anything else. When this process is faithfully followed, the Supreme Lord reveals Himself to the devotee. (NoI: verse 5)
Again, he mentions 'fully engage in chanting' and 'always chant the holy names.' This is required before smaranam can be perfected. Constantly hearing the holy name is a prerequisite for smaranam. This is again confirmed:
"In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing krsna-katha. This is called sravana-dasa, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Krsna and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varana-dasa. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of krsna-katha. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaranavastha, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive krsna-smarana. (NoI: verse 8)
The goal is not to chant constantly, but without doing this, one will not gain any benefit from reading rasa lila., as freedom from anarthas and offenses will not occur. That is why, in every single case in sastra, those who were instructed on raganuga chanted incessantly, prior to that instruction. The instructors and disciples both did this.
Ultimately, quotes such as the following have been misrepresented:
"The basic prerequisite for practicing raganuga-bhakti is simply a genuine longing (lobha) for a mood of devotion similar to that of one of the eternal residents of Vraja.” (B.r.s. 1.2.291)
"The appearance of greed (lobha) is shown when one’s impetus to execute devotional service no longer rests on scriptural rule and logic, but is reliant solely on one’s natural attraction for serving Krsna." (B.r.s. 1.2.292)
"One should constantly hear about and remember Vraja-Krsna and one of His dear associates whose devotion one genuinely craves. This practice should be done while living in Vraja." (B.r.s. 1.2.294)
"One should emulate the activities of an eternal resident of Vrndavana (vraja-lokanusarah) both externally in one’s physical body (sadhaka-rupa) and internally in one’s perfected body (siddha-Rupa) coveting that specific eternal associate’s particular mood of devotion(tad-bhava-lipsuna)." (B.r.s. 1.2.295)
We cannot ignore what ‘emulate the activities both externally and internally’ means. It also means following their instructions and practices to chant incessantly to qualify ourselves to enter nitya lila. That is why all the instructions on nama tattva and the instructions to chant incessantly, from the Lord, and all the acaryas, precede raganuga instruction.
The argument that ‘Srila Prabhupada didn’t chant 64 rounds’ is not the proper mood of a disciple who is well situated. It is a proud, ascending method, aggressive and challenging towards one’s guru. We are simply meant to follow their instructions and those of the mahajanas.
So the science on raganuga presented here is wrong on many fronts. It is offensive to Srila Prabhupada, incomplete and doesn’t follow either the mood or practices of the acaryas regarding the relationship between nama tattva and raganuga bhakti, particularly that of our most recent acarya. It actually contradicts those who are instructing us on raganuga and how to practice it. It means that we haven’t heard properly from proper persons. No success will come by this:
“Only when we hear hari-katha from saintly persons and the mahajanas and then follow in their footsteps can we achieve auspiciousness. In order to make pots, we must first take lessons from a potter. Then we must start to work. Similarly, if we do not follow the most experienced persons but try to achieve something by our independent endeavor, we will face many obstacles on the path to success. We will also fail to understand the purport of scripture and become controlled by mental speculation.” SBST
“It is our duty to take shelter of a spiritual master. There is no other way to realize the Absolute Truth than to follow the disciplic succession. Without smearing the dust from the lotus feet of the akincana mahajanas on our body, we cannot see or realize anything. Only the mahajanas can protect us from the spell of misconception. We can realize the Absolute Truth only when we take shelter of a spiritual master and serve Krsna under his guidance.” SBST
Academic learning on the topic of raganuga is not the path of bhakti.
“Therefore, the mahajanas said that transcendental subject matter is inconceivable The sastras can be realized only by a devotee practicing devotional service and not by worldly academic learning.” SBST
“When one considers his spiritual master nondifferent from Gadadhara Pandita, his journey to Vraja is confirmed. When one thinks otherwise he is in trouble. It is the duty of the intelligent to follow the mahajanas. To think one can attain perfection by one's own endeavor is a material conception. To think this leads only toward material existence and not to Vraja.” SBST
“Just as subordination and flattery are not synonymous, similarly following and imitating are not synonymous. Many people think imitation means following. Playing the role of Narada in a drama is called imitating, while following the path of devotional service Narada taught is following. To copy something artificially is imitating, but to follow in the footsteps of the great mahajanas is following.” SBST
I seriously doubt that the acaryas words on this topic will be appreciated or accepted by those here. They appear to have made up their minds based on false and misrepresented information. However, for the record it is important to note that the acaryas conclusions on the science and practice of raganuga bhakti differ markedly from that presented in this book and forum. The author contradicts the acaryas on many fundamental principles and has basically misunderstood and misrepresented the science of ragaunga. Not only that, he has made specific statements that directly contradict the acaryas and his own spiritual master and without providing any evidence to back those claims up. A concomitant failure to acknowledge and appreciate the importance of continuous chanting of harinama in regards to raganuga bhakti, despite the acaryas insistence on it, is sign enough that the author and others on this forum, are not to be considered to be properly representing the previous acarya's teachings on raganuga bhakti.
Meditation on nitya lila is not to be done without proper purification, achieved by incessant chanting. Those who are not practicing incessant chanting and who are still reading rasa lila and thinking they are 'inspired by genuine greed' are kidding themselves. If they are then otherwise advising others on how to 'practice raganuga bhakti' then they are not to be taken seriously, seeing as they contradict the acaryas' teachings on how to properly get benefit from reading rasa lila.
"There are many regulative principles in the sastras and directions given by the spiritual master. These regulative principles should act as servants of the basic principle—that is, one should always remember Krsna and never forget Him. This is possible when one chants the Hare Krsna mantra. Therefore one must strictly chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra twenty-four hours daily. Madhya 22.113
If one wants to achieve success at the end of his life, the process of remembering Kåñëa is essential. Therefore one should constantly, incessantly chant the maha-mantra— Bg 8.5
"Sada means "always." Haridasa Thakura says, nirantara nama lao: "Chant the Hare Krsna mantra without stopping."Antya 3.137
"That is the instruction given by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu in His Siksastaka 3. Kirtaniyah sada harih: [Cc. adi 17.31] "The holy name of the Lord should be chanted twenty-four hours daily."
"Therefore, the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare should be continued without stoppage. This will protect a devotee from all accidental falldowns. He will thus remain perpetually free from all material contaminations." Bg 9.31
"In conclusion, one who chants the holy name of the Lord constantly is guaranteed to return home, back to Godhead, without a doubt. Srimad-Bhagavatam" 6.2.49
Giving up all non-devotee association is also part of properly practicing 'raganuga bhakti,' as is getting bona fide sadhu sanga." As explained by Mahaprabhu:
"When Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu was requested to explain the duty of a Vaisnava, a Krsna conscious person, He immediately said, asat-sanga-tyaga-ei vaisnava-acara [Cc. Madhya 22.87]. The first business of a Vaisnava is to give up the association of persons who are not devotees of Krsna and who are too attached to material things -- wife, children, bank balance and so on." SB 5.18.10
"If one is actually inquisitive to know about the absolute truth, he must approach a bona fide spiritual master. [indistinct] First business is to find out guru, guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151], Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. At the present moment this is a mentality, of course they have got some bad experience, but the process is that you must go to a guru. That is Vedic injunction." Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.28 -- Bombay, November 28, 1974
There are people here on this forum who have not yet found a bona fide guru, and have even expressed that the GBC is some sort of guide for who (or not) to listen to, and then they think they can artificially jump up to reading rasa lila? When they are clearly still in fear of a mundanely-elected institutional body? First get free of that fear by incessant chanting.
And what is a bona fide guru? One of the qualifications is that he will be specifically ordered by the previous acarya:
"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in disciplic succession who is authorized by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (Bhagavad-gita As It Is, 4.8.54, Purport)
"You cannot become a spiritual master all of a sudden. There must be order from a superior person. Superior to you. If he says, "Now you can make disciples," then you can do that. This is the educational process. That means, WHEN one has received the order FROM THE SPIRITUAL MASTER (SB 1.2.18 New Vrindaban, July 19, 1974)
We haven't done this, yet we think we can read rasa lila and make advancement? It is a joke.
Sahajiyaism means 'to take things cheaply.'
"The regulative principles are designed to take us gradually to the platform of spontaneous love of Krsna, which is the perfection of human life. Those who think they have already attained such perfection and give up the regulative principles are called sahajiya, or those who take things cheaply and simply imitate. This early rising, holding classes, going out regularly for sankirtana, worshiping the Deity are the very substance of devotional life." (SPL to Bhurijana, 29th April, 1974)
"When one is mature in devotional service and is a realized soul, he can know his own eternal relationship with Krsna. One should not artificially try to establish some relationship. In the premature stage it is sometimes found that a lusty, conditioned person will artificially try to establish some relationship with Krsna in conjugal love. The result of this is that one becomes prakrta-sahajiya, or one who takes everything very cheaply. Although such persons may be very anxious to establish a relationship with Krsna in conjugal love, their conditioned life in the material world is still most abominable. A person who has actually established his relationship with Krsna can no longer act on the material plane, and his personal character cannot be criticized." (SP in NOD)
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 0:01:43 GMT -5
The following statements from Srila Prabhupada are not to be so easily disregarded, at least for those who consider themselves his 'followers' and 'disciples:'
ADHIKARA FOR RASA LILA
S.B. 1.1.1 Purport: ...Unscrupulous persons go immediately to the Tenth Canto and especially to the five chapters which describe the Lord’s rasa dance. This portion of the Srimad Bhagavatam is the most confidential part of this great literature. Unless one is thoroughly accomplished in the transcendental knowledge of the Lord, one is sure to misunderstand the Lord’s worshipable transcendental pastimes called rasa dance and His love affairs with the gopis. This subject matter is highly spiritual, and ONLY the liberated persons who have gradually attained to the stage of paramahamsa can transcendentally relish this rasa dance. Srila Vyasadeva therefore gives the reader the chance to gradually develop spiritual realization before actually relishing the essence of the pastimes of the Lord."
So we must ask ourselves, have we done this? Have we followed our own guru's instruction here? Or have we 'jumped over' them and 'interpreted' them instead? The fact that we have come to conclusions opposite to the acaryas and our own spiritual master is symptomatic of one who has deviated from the path of bhakti.
"Just like we are reading Srimad-Bhagavatam, we are discussing about the warfares, the professionals, they will go immediately to rasa-lila, as if these things are not necessary. Anyone who hears Bhagavatam from these professionals, they do not know what are the other subject matters in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Because they haven't got the chance to hear. They do not discuss. Whenever there is recitation of Bhagavatam, it means they are discussing some rasa-lila. Because the rasa-lila is very palatable to the rascals. They think that Krsna is ordinary young boy, and the gopis are young girls, and as they read novel and dramas, one man, one woman, their activities, they think Bhagavata is like that. They think... Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matih. They think like that. The gopis, the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the pastimes of Krsna with the gopis, it is most confidential part of Srimad-Bhagavatam. It is to be relished by the liberated soul, not these ordinary persons who have got sex attraction. They are unfit for hearing Srimad-Bhagavatam, rasa-lila. Unfit." Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.1 -- Mayapura, June 16, 1973  CC Madhya Lila 8.83 Purport: The purport in presenting this verse necessitates explaining the comparative positions of the transcendental mellows known as santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. All these rasas, or mellows, are situated on the transcendental platform. Pure devotees take shelter of one of them and thus progress in spiritual life. Actually one can take shelter of such spiritual mellows ONLY when one is completely uncontaminated by material attachment. When one is completely free from material attachment, the feelings of the transcendental mellows are awakened in the heart of the devotee.
CC Madya Lila 8.255 Purport: A liberated person who hears about the loving affairs of Radha and Krsna is not inclined to have lusty desires. ... Unless one is liberated, he should not try to hear about the loving affairs between Radha and Krsna. ... In the conditioned stage one should not even try to remember such things. By practicing the regulative principles, one should rise to the platform of spontaneous attraction for Krsna. THEN AND ONLY THEN should one hear about radha krsna lila. Although these affairs may be very pleasing both to conditioned and to liberated souls, the conditioned soul should not try to hear them."
"When all anarthas are removed while chanting the holy names, then the form, qualities, and pastimes of the Lord automatically manifest. There is no need to endeavor artificially to remember the Lord's forms, qualities, and pastimes." SBST
So, we like to conveniently ignore and not follow these instruction from our own spiritual master, and the acarya immediately previous, thus neglecting his and all the acaryas' specific instructions on the requirement to become first purified and free from aparadha by constant chanting BEFORE reading rasa lila. We like to take the specific statements such as 'reading or hearing rasa lila will purify the heart' without understanding precisely what those acaryas state is the means to get this effect - constant chanting.
We thus ignore those specific instructions and prefer to go the previous acaryas words, interpret them according to our personal whims, and try and convince others that Srila Prabhupada's instructions somehow differed, or were 'not sufficient to practice raganuga.' That becomes clear to others when we see that such people make massive philosophical errors and come to conclusions without providing any sastric references for their speculations.
Everyone is always quoting Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura, but fail to properly acknowledge his statements that reading or hearing rasa lila will have no effect if one has no faith in Krsna and who offends the holy name. I suppose such people think they are not committing offenses against the holy name and therefore have no need to chant it constantly?
That is not the mood of our acaryas. For example:
"I am guilty of being an offender, a rascal, a useless wretch." Srila Rupa Goswami
"I am such an offender." SBST
"O Hari! I am an offender, and therefore I am always punishable. I have all bad qualities, and I am guilty of committing thousands and thousands of offenses. I am drowning inside this terrible, turbulent ocean of material existence. I have lost my way, and I desire to find the right path. O Hari, I have taken shelter of Your lotus feet out of fear. Please accept me as Your own. O Lord, Your vow is that You will definitely liberate anyone from material bondage who takes shelter of You. SBVT
And who thus constantly chant the holy name and instruct others to do the same. Indeed chanting constantly is the eternal function of the jiva:
"Chanting the holy name is the eternal religion of the living entities. It is his prime duty whether he is living in the material world or is in Vaikuntha in a liberated existence, for the conditioned souls, chanting is the process to achieve liberation, and for the liberated jiva, chanting remains an eternal, integral part of his existence as a servitor of the Lord." SBST
Again, have we even done the following FIRST step?
"When the sublime holy name is chanted in the company of saintly persons, only then does it give good results quickly but not otherwise. Due to close contact with atheists and gross materialists, the jiva becomes caught up in the false conception of body, wealth, relatives, greed, etc. giving rise to vyavahita in chanting he thus falls into grave confusion. Therefore, his first step towards advancing in Krsna consciousness should be to disassociate himself from non-devotees. Taking complete shelter of the holy name, he should simply chant. By the mercy of the holy name one becomes delivered from nescience and confusion; his offenses vanish, and he eels pure joy. Once freed from offenses to the holy name, he profoundly experiences the first stirrings of krsna-prema within his heart.
"The symptoms of an offensive chanter are that he is deceitful (misleading others) and capricious. A sincere chanter should avoid such bad company.
"Sanatkumara said, "O best of the sages, Narada, Lord Sankara compassionately revealed this great mystery about the holy name to me in the past. This knowledge at once dissipates all ills and misgivings and mitigates namaparadha to nil. Even those persons who are offensive can achieve liberation if they chant the names of Lord Visnu with knowledge of His supreme position."
"Svarupa Damodara! Ramananda Raya! It is imperative that you propagate the esoteric truth about the holy name of the Lord with great care. The conditioned souls in Kali-yuga have no means of redemption other than to realise the superexcellent knowledge of the holy name. This knowledge, as revealed by Vyasadeva in these verses, was explained by me in the past in the form of the Siksastaka. Therefore, sincerely broadcast this transcendental knowledge, always discuss the esoteric essence of the holy name and chant constantly. Sanat Kumara in Prema Vivarta
Basically, it all comes down to this - if one does not have faith in the holy name, that it will give all perfection, one will never get the fruit of reading or hearing rasa lila:
"Sri Krsnadasa, a resident of a dhama, then humbly enquired from Lord Caitanya with folded hands: "Dear Lord, I have one other clarification to be made, which I place before Your lotus feet: after having heard the wonderful glories of the holy name, I wonder why chanting does not give everyone the same result."
The Lord replied, "Sraddha (faith) is the root of everyone's spiritual life. Some persons do not get results from chanting due to their lack of faith. The holy name is the Supreme Lord Himself, residing in everyone's heart as the Supersoul and He offers success in chanting proportionate to one's faith. Persons who do not have sufficient faith in the holy name or the chanting process, cannot have spiritual progress. Instead they slide down the path to destruction, committing offenses against the holy name."
One must therefore avoid the deceitful, those who are misleading and deceiving others in the name of bhakti, and take to constant chanting. One doesn't have to give up one's occupation. This is the best and only process required in Kali Yuga:
"There can be no better process than chanting the holy name. Only those who have no other business in this world can chant Hari's holy names. Chanting the holy name of Hari is the only way to be delivered. There is no other way to enter God's spiritual kingdom. Chanting the holy name is the only process by which we can attain the goal of life; there is no alternative to chanting. Love of God, which is attained by chanting the holy name, is the ultimate goal of life. The sastra states, harer nama harer nama, harer namaiva kevalam/ kalau nasty eva nasty eva, nasty eva gatir anyatha: "In this age of quarrel and hypocrisy the only means of deliverance is chanting the holy name of the Lord. There is no other way. There is no other way. There is no other way." (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 17.21) To give emphasis to the point the sastras repeat the statement three times. Elsewhere in sastra it states, kalau tu nama matrena, pujyate bhagawan harih: "Lord Hari is worshiped in this age of Kali simply by chanting His holy names." SBST (Narayana-samhita)
"One should strictly follow the principle of always chanting the holy name, and one should be satisfied with whatever he gets easily. Such devotional behavior solidly maintains one's devotional service. Adi 17.30
"Therefore, Arjuna, you should always think of Me in the form of Krsna and at the same time continue your prescribed duty of fighting. With your activities dedicated to Me and your mind and intelligence fixed on Me, you will attain Me without doubt." (Bg. 8.7)
He does not advise Arjuna simply to remember Him and give up his occupation. No, the Lord never suggests anything impractical. In this material world, in order to maintain the body one has to work. Human society is divided, according to work, into four divisions of social order -- brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra. The brahmana class or intelligent class is working in one way, the ksatriya or administrative class is working in another way, and the mercantile class and the laborers are all tending to their specific duties. In the human society, whether one is a laborer, merchant, administrator or farmer, or even if one belongs to the highest class and is a literary man, a scientist or a theologian, he has to work in order to maintain his existence. The Lord therefore tells Arjuna that he need not give up his occupation, but while he is engaged in his occupation he should remember Krsna (mam anusmara [Bg. 8.7]). If he doesn't practice remembering Krsna while he is struggling for existence, then it will not be possible for him to remember Krsna at the time of death. Lord Caitanya also advises this. He says, kirtaniyah sada harih: [Cc. Adi 17.31] one should practice chanting the names of the Lord always. The names of the Lord and the Lord are nondifferent. So Lord Krsna's instruction to Arjuna to "remember Me" and Lord Caitanya's injunction to "always chant the names of Lord Krsna" are the same instruction. There is no difference, because Krsna and Krsna's name are nondifferent. In the absolute status there is no difference between reference and referent. Therefore we have to practice remembering the Lord always, twenty-four hours a day, by chanting His names and molding our life's activities in such a way that we can remember Him always.
How is this possible? The acaryas give the following example. If a married woman is attached to another man, or if a man has an attachment for a woman other than his wife, then the attachment is to be considered very strong. One with such an attachment is always thinking of the loved one. The wife who is thinking of her lover is always thinking of meeting him, even while she is carrying out her household chores. In fact, she carries out her household work even more carefully so her husband will not suspect her attachment. Similarly, we should always remember the supreme lover, Sri Krsna, and at the same time perform our material duties very nicely. A strong sense of love is required here. If we have a strong sense of love for the Supreme Lord, then we can discharge our duty and at the same time remember Him. But we have to develop that sense of love. Arjuna, for instance, was always thinking of Krsna; he was the constant companion of Krsna, and at the same time he was a warrior. Krsna did not advise him to give up fighting and go to the forest to meditate. When Lord Krsna delineates the yoga system to Arjuna, Arjuna says that the practice of this system is not possible for him. Bg Introduction
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Post by mahashaktidas on Feb 17, 2015 0:07:17 GMT -5
In the Srimad Bhagavatam, Pariksit Maharaj poses a question to Sukadeva Goswami, "How can the material tongue vibrate the transcendental sound of the Holy Name?" A similar question arises here, " How can a conditioned soul engage in raganuga bhakti?" Because a slight desire to render pure devotional service may sprout in the contaminated jiva heart, the Lord considers that very special and fans the flame of that desire by making the jiva's faith very strong. Thus, a very real process ensues whereby the jiva's love for God is aroused while still contaminated by the three modes of material nature.
If we say that first one must become liberated of all material desires, then we deride the power of the Holy Name by inferring a two step process is necessary.In actuality, the jiva does not have to wait on liberation. In fact, it is advisable not to do so because liberation is not the goal of bhakti. Our goal is Krsna prem and liberation is a by-product.
Many references by Vraj Vilasa prabhu give great support to the supreme efficacy of constant chanting of the Holy Names and I much appreciate his convictions in this matter. But we must remember that our chanting is being executed under the guidance and permission of our spiritual master. It is by his grace that a transcendental desire to serve in some particular way may be aroused in our heart. It is not dependent on any number of rounds being chanted although no doubt the more rounds one chants, the more opportunity to arouse transcendental desire. But if Srila Prabhupada says that we should chant 16 rounds minimum, that is sufficient to arouse transcendental desire.
In Krsna Consciousness, the miracle is that the infinite Lord appears to the finite jiva. Some devotees who don't understand this principle are morose at the thought they will never have sufficient strength to attain Krsna so they give up their practice. How many of us can chant all day long and all night long? Even to stay up all night on Ekadasi chanting and dancing, very few of us do. Krsna says that even if one commits sin on the path of bhakti, he is still considered saintly. Understanding this principle, so many of us became enlivened upon reading Uttamasloka's book on raganuga bhakti. In our hearts, we know that Krsna is very, very kind despite our extreme shortcomings. For every step we make toward Him, He takes 10 steps toward us.
Once a sparrow lost her eggs to the ocean. The sparrow used her beak to remove the water and regain her eggs. The ocean laughed. Seeing the bird engaged in such an impossible task, Garuda the king of birds came to help. The ocean relented when Garuda arrived.
Maya is impossible to overcome. Yet she is the obedient servant of Krsna. If we gain the favor of Krsna who sees that we are sincerely trying to serve Him, He will call away Maya. Raganuga bhakti offers the jiva an opportunity to meditate constantly on a particular mood and service that will please Krsna. In raganuga, we are aiming for the highest so very few persons believe we are qualified to do this and they scold us or deride our efforts. These same persons have no ashraya in their own sadhana because they do not feel it is possible or proper to think of Krsna in some personal and intimate way. So they chant and chant and chant but maybe they have no real attachment. So what is their position?
There is a great value to learning the authorized way of raganuga bhakti. It is not for the general public. It is for devotees who want to surrender and go Back to Home, Back to Godhead. How can anyone return to Godhead if they do not know their eternal service? What will they do in Godhead without knowledge of their eternal service? Even Lord Shiva and Laxmi could not enter Gokula/Goloka because they had not gone through the necessary steps found here on earth. This life is for developing the details of our eternal service. Our eternal bodies are a conception based on the particular mood that we cultivate now.
To conclude, chanting the Holy Names should be done with a particular mood and focus in order to attain complete success. We should know the mood that most attracts us and cultivate that mood steadily. Just as the devotee burned his finger while meditating on the sweet rice he prepared for the Lord or just as the turtle eggs on shore hatch when the distant Mother turtle meditates on them, so we can develop our mood of eternal love by cultivating the seed of bhakti given by our spiritual master.
I am fallen and unqualified so I pray that my comments are relevant and bring value to the discussion.
Hare Krsna
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 0:20:23 GMT -5
Hare Krsna, Mahasakti das,
We just need to follow the instructions of Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas regarding this topic, in toto, and not rely on anybody's interpretations, partial understandings, misunderstandings, and speculations regarding the practice of raganuga bhakti.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Sunanda das on Feb 18, 2015 0:09:54 GMT -5
Firstly, Vraja Vilas you make various direct and indirect claims about Uttamasloka, his qualifications, his character, his sadhana, service, etc., but you do not even know him. As Mahasakti pointed out, the grace of the guru upon the disciple who has sincerely served him gains the disciple the mercy of Godhead which awakens an attraction for the Lord, along with chanting and other Vaidhi processes. Uttamasloka has certainly served his guru with faith for most of his entire life. He is certainly qualified to understand and explain Srila Prabhupada's teachings and by Srila Prabhupada's mercy he has awakened a mature understanding of the process of raganuga bhakti with reference to the authorized books of our acharyas which he has extensively quoted all along. As his junior, your adhikara is to take lessons from him, not instruct him. What exactly are your qualifications?
Secondly, you misunderstand his statement regarding Srila Prabhupada's (and other acharyas') emphasis on constantly chanting the holy names. Uttamasloka is only saying it may not be a practical reality that one can chant 24 hours a day, literally, especially in the earlier stages of raganuga, what to speak of vaidhi bhakti. Can you chant while reading or thinking of practical matters, or while sleeping? Did you chant while you wrote your replies on this forum? If not than you are not following the acharyas' instructions yourself according to your own interpretation. The point Uttamasloka is making is that we have to be realistic about our level of devotion and act accordingly. It's a gradual process. When you can chant 24 hours a day, please come back onto this forum and let us know.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 18, 2015 16:12:30 GMT -5
Vraja Vilasa: This discussion with you is over. I will not waste any more valuable time responding to your foolish diatribes. If you post anything else it will be deleted. If you continue with your offensive, denigrating attitude and statements you will be blocked.
You have exposed clearly that your agenda is ego-driven and nothing more. You want to "defeat me" and nullify my contributions. It's a game for you. The proof is that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks and insults - all baseless and manufactured in your own confused and negative mind. I stated in the General Section of this forum that I will not discuss anything with people who exhibit fanaticism, literalism or offensive attitudes. Your latest posts reek of all that.
You have not proven anything by your posts except that you don't have a very deep understanding of raganuga-bhakti or the teachings of the acaryas. Please go and rant somewhere else.
I remember when I was TP of Toronto and Srila Prabhupada asked me personally about the book distribution, new devotees joining the temple and whether we were studying his books. He didn't ask me anything about, "Is everyone chanting constantly, 24 hours per day?" If I had told him that everyone was just sitting in the temple room chanting and not doing anything else, he would not have been pleased. He was however, extremely pleased when I told him we had 4 classes every day and he thanked me for that.
Does anyone think BVT was chanting japa on the court bench while listening to both parties present their arguments?
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Post by Markendeya Rsi on Feb 19, 2015 4:10:21 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu, As an 'old-timer' in ISKCON, have been watching this debate with interest. I, myself chant 64 rounds a day and have done for many years as my job allows it. It's a perennial topic which goes back to the 'Gopi Bhava Club.' Really Uttama, I am not sure that you have properly dealt with Vraja's posts. Everything he said was backed up by guru, sadhu and sastra, whereas you introduced a few things which weren't, and which VVD pointed out, are in direct contradiction to Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. Better you address his points, using your own notes from sastra, instead of booting him out. He provided various solid quotes from the acaryas, but you have not countered them and simply called him some names. I thought you were above that. It also doesn't give you extra credibility, that's for sure. Otherwise it looks like you just 'defeated yourself.' Something to keep in mind Cheers!. Otherwise, I enjoyed the book. Gave me something to think about. Regardless, good luck with your bhajan and all. Mark. Rsi
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