|
|
Post by Sunanda on Dec 15, 2015 19:07:13 GMT -5
Hare Krishna Govindpriya Mataji,
Please try to understand Uttamsloka's point that we have not committed any offense against your holy Grandfather. Because you were the speaker of the words in your posts and fooling us into thinking you were someone else, there is no blame on us for aparadha. Our statements were directed to you, not him. You have created the whole circumstance yourself, you are fully responsible for your words and your attitude, not your Grandfather. Don't blame him for your behavior and make him the object of our offenses. It is YOU who are to blame, only you. We were speaking directly to you, not your Grandfather.
Considering the circumstances, you are yourself the one committing an offense against your Grandfather by portraying yourself as him on this forum and speaking on his behalf, unknown to him. You should go to your Grandfather and explain the whole thing and apologize to him and see what he says. He will very wisely say that you have committed all the aparadhas, not us. Please do this immediately.
Yours in Srila Prabhupada's service,
Sunanda das
|
|
|
|
Post by Sunanda on Dec 16, 2015 4:10:29 GMT -5
Hare Krishna Lal,
Thank you for the points about jiva tattva. The nectar of pure tattva is always enlightening and satisfying. However, I am still convinced that there is a class of jivas (also manifested from the jiva sakti) who are eternally liberated from the beginning of their existence and did not have to undergo a period of delusion and ignorance from which to arrive at their eternal service to Sri Krishna or any other form of the Lord. Can you honestly and philosophically claim that Mother Yasoda, Nanda, Subala, Rupa manjari, Swarupa Damodar, Hanuman, or any of the other eternal associates and servants of the Lord were once fallen conditioned souls like us? That is hardly likely. And considering that in the process of raganuga bhakti one must follow in the footsteps of one of these associates in order to attain their respective service, how would they (the personalities mentioned above) have attained that position themselves if there was no one there in the first place to follow? Please explain. |
|
|
|
Post by niscala on Dec 16, 2015 6:34:26 GMT -5
Sunanda, some of those whom you mention may be direct expansions from Baladeva or Sankarsana, and not jiva sakti. Lal made the point that those expanded from Baladeva are nitya siddha and eternally perfect, but not in the jiva sakti category which is imperfect, constitutionally and which attains perfection with sadhana. The same conclusion applies- we didn't fall from Vaikuntha, nor did we fall asleep there, nor do ever the residents of Vaikuntha fall, or fall asleep and forget Krsna. This applies to both nitya siddhas and sadhana siddhas.
|
|
lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by lal on Dec 16, 2015 8:28:44 GMT -5
Hare Krishna Lal,
Thank you for the points about jiva tattva. The nectar of pure tattva is always enlightening and satisfying. However, I am still convinced that there is a class of jivas (also manifested from the jiva sakti) who are eternally liberated from the beginning of their existence and did not have to undergo a period of delusion and ignorance from which to arrive at their eternal service to Sri Krishna or any other form of the Lord. Can you honestly and philosophically claim that Mother Yasoda, Nanda, Subala, Rupa manjari, Swarupa Damodar, Hanuman, or any of the other eternal associates and servants of the Lord were once fallen conditioned souls like us? That is hardly likely. And considering that in the process of raganuga bhakti one must follow in the footsteps of one of these associates in order to attain their respective service, how would they (the personalities mentioned above) have attained that position themselves if there was no one there in the first place to follow? Please explain. Using that logic we can conclude that the only reason for the bondage of the jiva is for something other than necessity. If as you said there must have been an original group of jivas who were never bound by ignorance because of the need of ragatmika bhaktas to emulate for raganuga sadhana for everyone else - then why have any jivas be bound if it is simply up to Krishna to choose some to be bound and others not to be bound? Why would Krishna choose any to be bound in the first place? We need to understand the purpose of the bound state of the jiva - because if it serves no necessary purpose and Krishna can simply avoid it altogether for everyone, then being the most magnanimous of all, weeping for the fallen souls, then he of course would avoid it. But we are told that it is not Krishna's fault, that it is the fault of the 'svabhava' of the jiva, its inherent nature until liberated - which is its lack of knowledge. Just like when first born all are fully ignorant due to no experience of anything. I think the problem of so many misunderstandings of this topic comes from not understanding the qualifications for lila. Bhaktivinoda and other acharyas have warned not to take the idea of lila too literally, that there is a lot of symbolism in lila. That in truth, even though lila seems so much like similar pastimes on earth between ordinary people with romance and adventure, that it is really much more than that - and therefore it is wise not to read too much into the seeming nature of the lila because it is not comprised of ordinary people - all the jivas in lila are fully liberated souls, full of knowledge. What does liberated mean? Liberated from what? In ISKCON we learned to see the nature of the conditioned souls in terms of a dual cause: a lack of devotion based on envy, and of selfish desires to be the center. I see that view as predicated on Prabhupada's preaching strategy about the fall of the jiva, with those as the causes of the fall of the jiva from lila. That is what they teach. Then, by devotional service the jiva is purified, and will never again become selfish or envious. That is ISKCON dogma on the origin of the jiva in bondage and the way out of bondage. Although Prabhupada did say the jiva could always fall again since that is the nature of free will - he also contradicted himself on that and taught the traditional teachings as well that once liberated you never fall. The new idea he also put forth though became the de-facto teaching of ISKCON - that the jiva became jealous of Krishna and wanted to be the supreme enjoyer, that it wanted to exploit God's energy for its own selfish reasons. Therefore Krishna put them into the material world to try to be the God of their own world, where they would be punished by maya until learning to love Krishna by the mercy of the devotees and Krishna. That is not the traditional teaching. I see that whole vision as a preaching strategy by Prabhupada that he sometimes spoke, but it became the standard for ISKCON because it was all they would speak when giving classes in the temples or out preaching. Prabhupada also presented the traditional teachings, but in ISKCON the classes we would hear day in and out by the members usually did not present the traditional. They were much more affected by the new version of jiva-tattva on the fall of the jiva from Vaikuntha based on envy and selfishness. That became ingrained in ISKCON and the traditional was essentially ignored until it started to became a topic for some in the 1980s due to outside influences on ISKCON society. ISKCON leaders decided to push back and wrote a bunch of papers insisting that the new version is the traditional. So, the idea that the cause of the bondage of the jiva was the jiva's own selfishness and envy was ingrained as the root cause of material bondage for most all raised on ISKCON teachings. All teachings were centered around that cause and effect. Even when they learned that the traditional says there was never a fall from lila, still, the cause of bondage was not properly understood. I believe mostly because of how Sridhar Maharaja taught on the topic. He was the first Gaudiya Math guru to become a siksa guru to a large swath of ISKCON devotees after Prabhupada left. Not wanting to upset the apple cart, he was very careful how he dealt with questions. When it came to the origin of the jiva he created something unique like Prabhupada did. Although he merged the traditional with what Prabhupada taught, he didn't push the full traditional position on ISKCON. He taught the traditional idea that the jiva comes from a state of stasis, and then he switched to the new idea that somehow some of those jivas became envious and selfish and took birth in the material world, and others developed devotion and went to lila - all before taking birth. He didn't explain how that occurred, he left it vague. He didn't preach this previous to teaching to ISKCON devotees. The problem with that vision of the jiva going straight to lila without bondage, like Prabhupada's version of the fall from lila, is that neither is part of the tradition, the contradict the tradition - and they make no real sense. They avoid the real cause and in its place they present the idea of bondage as the fault of the jiva lacking devotion and also being selfish. And therefore the cure is evident - to give up envy and develop devotion! Simple, right? Why, jivas can somehow avoid the material world altogether if they somehow choose not to come here in the first place - as if before they were ever born they were somehow, inexplicably and unimaginably, somehow - were given a choice. Like how they choose a replacement Tibetan high lama. You know the story right? They look for the reincarnation of the lama, then they choose among a bunch of candidates, all little children. They place before them some objects owned by the lama and some other objects like toys or money or whatever. If the little child chooses the previous lama's things, then he must be the lama reincarnated. In that way it is thought that before jivas are born, right after being in eternal sleep with no experience of anything, that somehow they have the ability and are given the choice to go to heaven or hell - and some choose as Sridhar Maharaja said: "The land of devotion" and others choose "the land of exploitation." Those two conceptions first created by Prabhupada, and then expanded upon by Sridhar Maharaja - both present the conception of the liberated state as being a simple lack of envy and exploitation, combined with love for Krishna. The traditional teachings tell us that the highest realm of lila, is for liberated souls only. Liberated from what? Liberated from bondage. What is bondage? The bondage of ignorance. Ignorance is the nature of the conditioned state, its the cause. Not envy or a lack of love and devotion. The tradition teaches that no souls are born liberated because liberation isn't mainly a state of non-envy and devotion - those are not the solution to bondage, they are just characteristics of liberated souls, not the cause of liberation. Liberation is first and foremost a state of liberation from ignorance. In the Gita Krishna plainly tells us that the cause of material life is the inherent nature of the jiva, which is ignorance. Ignorance is the cause of bondage. Knowledge is the cure. And then he tells us the cure is knowledge, and by that knowledge one attains liberation: And then Krishna describes the liberated soul: The jiva does not make a choice. I think maybe the editors mistranslated 'svabhava' as 'modes of material nature.' Since it is such an obvious mistake I would venture maybe Prabhupada simply said 'nature' and they assumed he meant 'modes of nature.' Either way, svabhava means 'inherent nature,' as in "All this is enacted by [the jiva's] nature," not 'All this is enacted by the modes of material nature.' Krishna says it is the inherent nature of the jiva, svabhava, that is the cause of the jiva's material existence. You can only be liberated by knowledge because liberation means liberation from ignorance. Om ajnana-timirandhasya jnananjana-salakaya caksur unmilitam yena tasmai sri-gurave namaha - the devotee chants every day. The lamp of knowledge dissipates the darkness of ignorance. That is how all jivas attain liberation - knowledge replacing ignorance. What is taught is that the jiva is not at fault, it didn't choose bondage, and Krishna is also not at fault - as if he could choose some to avoid bondage if he simple felt like it. Instead we are taught that the jiva must undergo the process of gaining knowledge because it is ignorant until than. Being ignorant, it cannot exist in the liberated state since the liberated state is the state of liberation from ignorance, or sat-chit-ananda, full consciousness, full knowledge, and full bliss. Bhaktivinoda states the shastric version clearly as quoted earlier: As to where did the original jivas in lila come from if they didn't have devotees to emulate in raganuga sadhana? We should appreciate that not everyone needs sadhana, as it is taught that the jiva can attain perfection in one of three ways: through learning from a guru; from a learned sadhu; or directly from Krishna within the heart. Plus, just like when Lord Brahma stole the cowherd boys and Krishna expanded himself to take their places and no one knew they were gone - not only does everyone not need to go through raganuga sadhana, some can get the knowledge directly from caitya-guru, the shastras which tell the stories of the ragatmika pastimes with Krishna would still exist whether or not they were based on actual jiva souls or not. Those stories are created for the purpose of the elevation of the sadhana bhaktas by teaching about rasa-lila, they don't necessarily have to be 100% true to serve the purpose they were created for. Some may say that "why do you need full knowledge to be in lila, since don't they forget where they are, aren't they unaware of maya." The answer is no. Those ideas come from a mistaken view of what the shastra teaches. Only in a limited sense do they lose themselves in lila, and only in a limited sense do they forget that maya exists. Just like we are also told that Krishna forgets himself in lila, but is still present in every atom and every heart, running everything in the universe. So the jiva also forgets in the sense that the truth of lila is set aside for the sake of rasa. What that means is that in the liberated state, as stated above, the jiva sees all and everyone as one and the same. This is because it has knowledge of Krishna as the controller of all and everything. By seeing like that we become conscious of everything we do, or what anyone does, as a manifestation of Krishna. We end up seeing all as theater, with Krishna as the director, writer, producer and even stage and setting. While that is the absolute truth, and is the factual reality - when it comes to rasa, that awareness of that connection Krishna has as the controller is not meditated on, it is set aside so the flow of emotion can reign supreme in the mind of the jiva over the might and majesty of Krishna over everything. If the jiva is always very aware that Krishna is in control over all, including itself, it becomes enraptured by the might and majesty of Krishna in his controlling potency over everything. In lila, Krishna wants the focus of the jiva not on Krishna's mastery and majesty over everything, instead he wants the jiva more focused on an emotional interplay with him as lover and beloved. Still, it isn't like the jiva is ignorant and doesn't know the absolute truth, all liberated souls are liberated from ignorance - but in lila the focus isn't on the knowledge of Krishna's might and power over everything, it is on intimacy. In that way the jiva 'forgets there is maya' or 'forgets itself' and so on. They do not literally become ignorant like the conditioned souls. Just like Krishna doesn't literally lose knowledge of himself as God - because how would he be in everyone's heart if that were so? Or how would he control the universe? In the same way the jiva doesn't become ignorant - liberated soul means liberated from ignorance. So it is not that Krishna becomes ignorant and loses knowledge, he is still in control of the universe when it is taught that he loses himself in lila. In the same way the jiva also doesn't literally lose all knowledge and become ignorant. It is simply a matter of focus. Emotional interplay vs focused awareness of Krishna as the controller. Before lila, the focus of the sadhana bhakta needs to be on Krishna as the controller so we can communicate with him via paramatma, within our minds, and all around through everyone and everything else. But after attaining lila, Krishna is manifest in human form and living with us. So we no longer need to focus on paramatma in order to speak with him. That knowledge that Krishna is everything is not forgotten, you never literally forget, just like you do not literally forget that the material world exists for conditioned souls in maya. Instead your focus simply doesn't go there, your focus stays on your personal one to one relationship with Krishna in pastimes of love. In that way you forget maya exists, and forget Krishna is controlling you and everything as God. But not literally. It is a matter of priority of focus on rasa rather than tattva. |
|
|
|
Post by Sunanda on Dec 17, 2015 16:38:18 GMT -5
To Lalji,
Hare Krishna. Thank you again for the marvelous points about jiva tattva (I mean that sincerely) and the consciousness of the liberated souls in lila. My journey into the realm of truth regarding jiva tattva began many years ago when I read my friend and Godbrother Kundali's (and Satya Narayana's) book, Not Even the Leaves in Vaikuntha Fall. Many new concepts entered my mind from that reading and since then it has only become clearer. Jaiva Dharma further elucidated things and the result of all this is that I got a real and substantial sense of what Srila Prabhupada (as well as all our acharyas) were really saying in this regard. Over the years I have also compiled a substantial collection of all of Srila Prabhupada's quotes on this topic Thus, I left the fold of ISKCON dogma on this issue a long time back. However, it's interesting to note that recently Acyutananda (formerly Swami) made a comment that in the early days of ISKCON, no one thought we fell from the spiritual world. This was apparently added later for some reasons (which you have also stated).
I understand fully that the jiva souls coming from tatastha sakti are incomplete when they are manifested due to ignorance (not envy, etc.) and need to undergo purification and sadhana to attain their perfection in rasa. This is clear. However, I want to include here the complete quote from Jaiva Dharma from which you also quoted because there is still some doubt about the technical identity of souls like Yasoda, Nanda, Subal, Paurnamasi, and other parishads. This translation is from a Gaudiya Matha publication written by Bhakti Vilas Tirtha Goswami and translated by Bhakti Sadhaka Niskinchana Maharaja and Bhakti Prajnan Yati Maharaja.
"Babaji - No, the chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; whatever she produces is all eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished. When he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whearas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the type of shakti he applies. When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When He desired to have His adherent attendant 'nitya parshada' servitors in His transcendental plane Goloka Vrindabana, Vaikuntha, etc., He through Baladeva created those eternal parishadas as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three forms of Vishnu, viz., Karanadakshayi, Kshirodakshayi and Garbhodakshayi. At Vraja He reveals His own nature as Krishna with chit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krishna. Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, Sankarsana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Mahavishnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of the jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome and fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas (sattva, rajas, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas and not the chit-Shakti."
There are several points stated here:
1. The chit-shakti (complete shakti) creates only eternally accomplished and complete entities 2. Jivas, born of the jiva-shakti (incomplete shakti) are not eternally accomplished and complete; they must perform sadhana bhakti to become accomplished and complete 3. The confidantes of Sri Radha are eternally accomplished, born of Sri Radha Who is essentially the chit-shakti 4. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the type of shakti he applies 5. Baladeva creates (reveals) the 'nitya mukta' parishadas (eternal associates) as nitya mukta jivas in Goloka 6. Sankarsana creates (reveals) the eternally free associate jivas in Vaikuntha 7. Maha Vishnu creates the jiva souls of tatashta shakti who are susceptible to the influence of maya 8. The conclusion is that the jiva-shakti begets the jivas, not the chit-shakti
Based on the above quote it would appear there are three types of jivas:
1. Those created by Baladeva as nitya parishadas of Goloka 2. Those created by Sankarshana as nitya parishadas of Vaikuntha 3. Those created by Maha Vishnu (via the tatastha sakti) who are susceptible to the influence of maya
Unless the use of the word 'jivas' (as highlighted by me in the text) has been misapplied or incorrectly translated, there is little room for doubt that there is a class of eternally liberated jivas who are 'created' by the Lord (as Baladeva and Sankarsana) for the Lord's service as His eternal associates. They obviously do not have to undergo purification or practice sadhana to attain their positions as His associates, whereas the jivas created by Maha Vishnu do. This sounds apparently contradictory to the original statement, 'the jiva is not so eternally accomplished. When he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. This original statement seems to say that ALL jivas are eternally unaccomplished, but then the text says there are eternal associate jivas also. This seems to indicate some exception to the rule. Perhaps the jivas born of tatastha sakti are in a separate category from other jivas as this sakti has only been indicated in reference to the jivas within maya's jurisdiction. Other jivas (eternal parishads) are also still technically 'incomplete' in their essence and never become 'complete' due to being liberated. Neither do the sadhana siddhas become 'complete' in essence upon gaining perfection. Maybe the words complete and incomplete as we understand them have limitations.
There also apparently seems to be a subtle difference between the jiva sakti and tatastha sakti. One (jiva sakti) is a general category while the other (tatastha) is very specific to the mundane creation. The whole above explanation is based on the statement, 'Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the type of shakti he applies' and then goes on to explain some of those different entities which includes the eternally liberated jivas in Goloka and Vaikuntha, and those of the material realm. Perhaps another shakti is used to create the eternal residents like the trees, animals, lakes, mountains, etc. of the spiritual world who are also fully conscious entities. Please explain your understanding of the above and correct me if I have misunderstood or used a faulty translation.
Ys, Sunanda das
|
|
lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
|
Post by lal on Dec 17, 2015 23:14:48 GMT -5
Sunanda, without seeing the original it is impossible to decipher what is true or not in the translation. So, I am going by: what can be verified and what makes sense. If it cannot be verified and if it is also illogical, then I reject it until I can see the original. Clearly it would not make sense by first promoting the idea of all jivas needing to attain lila through sadhana-siddha, and then in the same answer saying there are nitya-mukta jivas who don't need that. Also, the idea of three types of jivas has never been taught. But here is something I think that might be meant:
Sandhini-sakti is one of the three anubhavas of the svarupa or cit-sakti.
The things that are created and maintained out of the cit-shakti, those creations are created by a sub-section called sandhini-sakti, the existence potency, that creates and maintains all things that exist, i.e. forms and worlds, and so on. The other two being samvit-sakti, the knowledge potency, and hladini-sakti, the pleasure potency. The sandhini-sakti creates and maintains all the forms in the spiritual world and material world, i.e. the land, bodies, vegetation, objects like houses and so on. Baladeva is the predominating deity of sandhini-sakti. I would assume that is what Bhaktivinoda is talking about, that Baladeva, through sandhini-sakti, is responsible for the creation of the jivas physically going into lila, and the design and creation of their bodies in lila, i.e. design, clothing, etc., and through his Vishnu expansion the jivas going into the material world to their specific destination, and the design and creation of the bodies of the baddha-jivas.
I assume if translated correctly that is what we would see, a description of Baladeva's role as predominating diety of sandhini-sakti, otherwise the entire answer by Babaji contradicts itself a few times, and introduces a new ideology into Gaudiya siddhanta with the never before teaching of three types of jivas.
I think the simple problem is a messy translation, for exmaple the word nitya confuses the issue. Because it can mean either eternal or perpetual, therefore it is often mistaken for eternal in the sense of "without beginning or end," when it is supposed to just mean "perpetual" in some instances. For example when the sadhana-siddha becomes a nitya-mukta-parishad, they are perpetually liberated, they had a start to their liberated state though, still they are nitya-mukta-parishads. There in the quote we see it said that Baladeva manifests the nitya-mukta-parishad, and people mistake that to mean jivas who "have always been liberated" because of a poor translation, but all sadhana-siddhas become nitya-mukta-parishads.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sunanda on Dec 17, 2015 23:35:15 GMT -5
Hare Krishna Lalji,
Below are some selections that seem to indicate and confirm my previous observation regarding different types of jivas. The first is also from Jaiva Dharma and echoes the previously stated description of the jivas created by Baladeva, Sankarsana and Maha Vishnu. They are quite clear. The distinctions are irrefutable. No need for interpretation or commentary as far as I can determine.
The second is an excerpt is from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's essay, Vaisnavism - Real and Apparent. It is quite apparent (pun intended) that the nitya muktas are of two kinds; those that are eternally liberated (nitya siddha) and those that became eternally liberated through devotional practice (sadhana siddha). The nitya siddhas described here are the same as what has been described by Bhaktivinoda Thakur in the above two selections from Jaiva Dharma. The sadhana siddhas are the same here as what has been described in Jaiva Dharma as the tatastha shakti jivas.
The concept of 'choice' is also quite clearly presented by Bhaktivinoda Thakur regarding the tatastha shakti jivas. They see both the spiritual and material creations in their state of being and choose one or the other. I have provided a quote below from Srila Prabhupada that describes this 'state' in which he clearly describes the consciousness of the jiva before entering maya or Vaikuntha. Also provided are two quotes from the Brhad Aranyaka Upanisad which confirm the same concept.
If you think these explanations are not the real intentions of the authors and that they had some strategy in their preaching, and that the original teachings are something different, or that the books have been mistranslated somehow you will have to present some very solid evidence in this regard.
From Jaiva Dharm, Chapter 16:
Babaji: …Innumerable jīvas appear from Śrī Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vṛndāvana-vihārī Śrī Kṛṣṇa as His eternal associates in Goloka Vṛndāvana, and others appear from Śrī Saṅkarṣaṇa to serve the Lord of Vaikuṇṭha, Śrī Nārāyana, in the spiritual sky.
Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavān, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-śakti, they are always strong.
They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called māyā or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, māyā is very far away from them and does not affect them at all.
Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.
There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jīvas who emanate as rays in Kāranodākaśāyī Mahā-Viṣṇu’s glance upon His māyā-śakti. Because these jīvas are situated next to māyā, they perceive her wonderful workings.
Although they have all the qualities of the jīvas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jīva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship.
Among these unlimited jīvas, those who want to enjoy māyā become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jīvas who perform cid-anusilanam of Bhagavān receive spiritual śakti by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. JD, Chapter 16
From Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati’s essay, Vaisnavism - Real and Apparent:
Jivas are of two kinds - (1) Nitya-Mukta (eternally free), (2) Nitya-Baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the Supreme God in five different functions in His eternal blissful abode, where there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there never comes back here.
The inconceivably narrowest line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called 'tata'; so also the meeting line of the cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the acit world or the tata region of Maya is called tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the tata is known as the tatastha (lying at the tata) or marginal power.
All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the cit or the acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that; those preferring the acit, fell into the clutches of the octopus Maya, when these mortal costumes of mind and body were put on him as a punishment.
The satanic frenzy in which the jiva dislikes the blissful and eternal service of his Master and prefers to quench his thirstful desires of enjoying matter, opens before him a perpetual spring of liquid fire and poison at which he begins to drink deep. Thus in going to lord it over Maya, jiva became enslaved by her.
From Srila Prabhupada's purports to Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Chapter 26, Texts 22 & 223-224:
The pure status of consciousness, or Krishna consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure
consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Krishna consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence
as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. SB, 3.26.22, Purport
In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krishna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krishna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krishna. Originally, pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna.…From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful.
SB, 3.26.223-224, Purport
From Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad:
There are two positions about which the jiva-purusa should inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a dream-like condition, and is the juncture (tatasthä) between the other two. Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-jagat (inert world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world). Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9)
Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being situated in karana-jala (the water of cause that lies between the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness. Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18)
|
|
|
|
Post by niscala on Dec 21, 2015 6:42:47 GMT -5
Lal: Clearly it would not make sense by first promoting the idea of all jivas needing to attain lila through sadhana-siddha
In the context, Sunanda is referring to all jivas emanating from the jiva sakti, as he has stated, with quotes, that those emanating from Baladeva are nitya mukta jivas.
Lal: Ignorance is the nature of the conditioned state, its the cause. Not envy or a lack of love and devotion.
The ignorance is in relation to devotion, it is not separable from it. Knowledge that liberates is specific- sambandha jnana- knowledge of one's loving and active relationship with Krsna in one of the four rasas, but one can only reach this point of knowledge through devotion. Simply theoretical knowledge, without the realization and first hand experience of that loving relationship through devotion, does not liberate, though it may be a prerequisite.
Otherwise, it may be asked what kind of knowledge actually liberates the soul? Obviously one may be ignorant of how to fix a tractor, or to do brain surgery etc, and still qualify for liberation. The cause of bondage is ignorance of self- that one is at the essence of one's very being, a loving servant of Krsna in a particular relationship of intimate interaction with Him. To say that the bondage is not due to lack of love, but lack of knowledge, is misleading, as those who have only theoretical self knowledge, but no devotion to actually realize that subjectively, are also bound. Through that knowledge, one learns abhideya, how to realize that knowledge- and it is specifically loving service. So essentially, devotion is the most important requirement. It may be argued also that since bhakti starts with sravanam, through which vidya is gained- hearing the sastra, this kind of knowledge acquisition is simply bhakti at a very immature stage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mahavirya das on Aug 27, 2016 16:15:33 GMT -5
Dandavats pranams to all.
I must say, after reading your treatise Uttamasloka prabhu, that it is a very important contribution to my personal bhajan.
I always coped very badly with the question ''Why do we fall from the spiritual world? If we never come back after attaining the destination, then what would make us fall in the first place?'' The argument of minute independence of the jiva always left me (and all those to whom I answered like that) on my appetite for a satisfactory answer.
On the other hand the eternal and infinite nature of the Lord's tatastha-shakti is immensely more harmonious with devotional comtemplation.
When we consider the infinite nature of the Lord's energies beyond the notion of time and space as we know it and see the shakti as a whole participating in the growth of the Lord's ananda by eternally awakening innumerable ''new''(in the absence of a non-temporal term) jiva entities to eventually participate in the Lord's lila,it makes much more devotional sense. Besides, who would like to see a worm in stool as a fallen gopi or gopa?
|
|
|
|
Post by niscala on Nov 16, 2017 20:22:41 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on May 14, 2020 13:43:12 GMT -5
I am familiar with HD's absurdly ridiculous position on the jiva fall issue. He is so off it's shocking. But not surprising because since Srila Prabhupada left us, HD has committed numerous Vaisnava aparadha against many devotees. So his knowledge and understanding have been blocked.
|
|
