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Post by niscala on Dec 13, 2015 6:26:50 GMT -5
Here is the source of the mistranslation. Clearly it refers to beginning life as Brahman, not Brahma. "Both the Lord and the living entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment, but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to enjoy independently, without Krsna, he is put into the material world, where he begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a worm in stool." (SB 9.24.58 p.)
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Post by Inquisitive Reader on Dec 13, 2015 6:51:33 GMT -5
Dear Niscala Prabhu,
Everything said and done... If I have your permission, can I digress a bit...
Can I request you to share, your age and your birth-place please...
You are free to deny my request...
But would like to know it...
Hare Krishna...
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Post by niscala on Dec 13, 2015 19:39:34 GMT -5
>>As Srila Prabhupada says, we will remember our stay in the Material World as a Bad Dream... And as someone who has a Bad Dream is reluctant to go back to sleep, to avoid that dream, much in the same way Prabhupada says, we will avoid the tendency to CONTROL... Thus it will be unlikely (althought totally possible) that we will come back here again from the Spiritual World...
It is possible, but they never do, not ever, for all eternity, as explained in the sastra, by Srila Prabhupada, and the previous acaryas. It is another inconceivable arrangement- there is lot about infinity that finite minds cannot comprehend- just like though Goloka comes from Baladeva, it has always existed, and the nitya siddhas (not the nitya muktas) have always resided there as well. For eternity, no one ever falls from Vaikuntha, though they may come here for some purpose favorable to the Lord's service, then return to Him. They never become conditioned souls.
You say that the jivas emanate from Baladeva, then go to Garbhodaksayi Visnu- what is the sastric reference for that?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 13, 2015 22:42:11 GMT -5
Your tone was accusative and belligerent and I simply called you out on that in a frank way. I exposed your foolishness, which is further confirmed by your current insults. Stop being an angry cry-baby. Act like a mature grown man as you claim to be. I certainly didn't see any humility from you so far. Pot calling the kettle black? Your assertions were not sincere. You were deliberately trying to trash my treatise and denigrate me. All of your arguments were concocted, ie: straw-man. That is a fact. Anyone can see these things. You already started out at a very low level, but this post has taken you further down I'm afraid. And there was no ranting on my part. Only frank, straight-forward responses to your blatant negativity. Now you're being completely hypocritical and even more disingenuous. Take your own advice. Ah, more civil decency from you I see. You sounded exactly like someone who recently eMailed me with very similar criticisms and I told him to post it on my forum, and lo and behold, the next day, your posts showed up, with the same exact tone and questions, so I made the connection and asked you to confirm or not. OK. Once again more exaggeration. I just asked you a simple question - to reveal your identity. That's all I wanted to know, and now everyone knows. I never got a chance to associate extensively with my godbrother, Svarupa Damodara Maharaja. Too bad he's not still with us, so I could tell him about the foul behavior of one of his disciples towards one of his godbrothers. I'd be interested to read some of his writings on raganuga-bhakti. Please let me know where I can find them. My jiva fall treatise is not about raganuga-bhakti. I only gave a short summary of raganuga-bhakti as it relates to the jiva fall issue. My other book goes into full detail. Who is being arrogant and condescending now? This has been your mood from the beginning. You have yet to prove one single point, except that you don't like being exposed for not knowing very much. If you had exhibited genuine sincerity and humility I would have treated you accordingly, but your mood and tone from the beginning was clearly condescending and sanctimonious, so I dealt with you according to what you deserved. I never presented myself as an authority. I just wrote a treatise fully supported by guru, sastra and sadhu. I never said one word about myself and I have never promoted myself. Other than this discussion forum, I don't even have a website. You're just angry and even more offensive than you were before because you are clearly unqualified to discuss these things, so who is the arrogant neophyte? And here's what Srila Prabhupada had to say about getting angry when discussing: Srila Prabhupada: So to become angry means defeat. If two persons are in argument, the man, the one party, if he becomes angry, that means he is defeated. Why one should become angry? It is the argument, logic. They should continue. And to become angry and to go away, that means defeat. Harikesa: They become upset because they cannot dominate you. Prabhupada: No, it is not the question of domination; it is the question of logic. If you do not agree to logic, then no argument can make progress. Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, if one does not agree to logic, does that mean that they are under the influence of tamo-guna? Prabhupada: That means he is animal. I'm leaving it here to expose your offensive foolishness and lack of decorum, what to speak of lack of Vaisnava etiquette. You have embarrassed and shamed yourself beyond anything I could have done. More baseless accusations from you. You still haven't proven anything. Zero. You're bluffing and angry because I exposed your faulty arguments, which were all distortions of what I said. You haven't yet shown that I've manufactured anything or was illogical. You just love to concoct things don't you? Do you have regular arguments with other imaginary opponents? "Are you on some kind of medication". So quoting sastra and Srila Prabhupada is wasting peoples' time? That's not the standard that Srila Prabhupada taught us. Srila Prabhupada doesn't agree with you. I gave a number of references where he stated we should carefully study the books of the previous acaryas along with his books. Interesting presentation. However, most of what you said is not supported in sastra or by the acaryas, and since you didn't provide and supporting evidence from those sources, I can only assume these are your speculations, which is not acceptable in a discussion about a topic like this. Please prove you points with references if you can. Otherwise, you can't be taken seriously. In my treatise, I supported every one of my assertions with solid sastra and references from the acaryas. Here are a few quotes from Srila Prabhupada about this: When speaking in spiritual circles, one's statements must be upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying. BG,17.15 "That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge." Room Conversation, 9.2.73, London "So we have got some evidence, but you have no evidence. At least we have got some support of the books. But what you have got? You are simply imagining, "I think," "I believe." What is this nonsense? What is your proof? Everyone is saying "I believe." Hundreds and thousands... And what is correct? Everyone... At least, we have got something correct. We don't say "I believe." This is not our process of knowledge. We, Kṛṣṇa conscious person, we never say "I believe." No, we immediately quote from the śāstra." Lecture, SB, 6.1.39, Los Angeles, 6.5.76 Sorry, but you don't get to tell me what I can or cannot do on my forum. Yes, your straw-man arguments were getting very repetitive. And that's exactly what you did. And your current arguments are even worse. You didn't prove a single thing and neither have you done that with this speculative analysis. You've only revealed your angry and offensive nature. I've allowed you to blather on up until now, and I'm leaving this exchange for everyone to see, but if you continue with this offensive and absurd approach, I'm not going to tolerate it further. Enough is enough. If you can't prove anything I presented is wrong with supporting evidence and you only want to exhibit your immature anger, then your posts will be deleted. Is that clear?
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Post by Inquisitive Reader on Dec 13, 2015 23:59:34 GMT -5
Dear Niscala Prabhu,
As I mentioned earlier... If someone reads Srila Prabhupada's books very carefully and faithfully... And listens to his lectures conversations very carefully... And has full faith in the fact that HIS books are more than sufficient to take us to Goloka...
Then YES by HIS MERCY you will get the realization and understanding about these things...
One who has full faith in Srila Prabhupada and his books, doesn't have to do the monkey business of jumping from one branch to another, in search of other books translated by non-bonafide authors...
Such a faithfull person strongly beleives that ONLY Srila Prabhupada's translations and commentaries are authorised...
And when such a faithfull person happens to read something else, he rejects it IF HE FINDS IT NOT IN SNYC WITH WHAT SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS...
These realizations don't come from studying Shastra... They come from INNER FAITH... ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL IRREVOCABLE FAITH IN SRILA PRABHUPADA... And ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL IRREVOCABLE REJECTION of everything that is not written by or said by Srila Prabhupada...
Now let me give TWO examples to illustrate what I am saying:
FIRST EXAMPLE: I don't know about western world, but in India in Nilacala where I am from, we have to filter our water with Aqua-guard. So we get a glass of water from the TAP of AQUA-GUARD... Now one may say, lets go to the source of this water... The source for Aqua-guard water is the normal tap water... its source is the water stored in the tanks of municipal corporation... its source is the water trapped by the dam on the river... its source is many rivulets that form the river... its source is the rain falling from the clouds... its source is the water from the ocean....
So if someone says... instead of drinking the water coming from the aqua-guard tap... let me go and get it from one of these sources... well its doable but not recommended... the whole arrangement from OCEAN WATER to Aqua-Guard water is necessary for the consumption of water in the current TIME PLACE AND CIRCUMSTANCE...
Much in the same, in every TIME PLACE and CIRCUMSTANCE, Krishna sends one of HIS beloved devotee as an Acharya to deliver the same MESSAGE (water) but in the form that is USABLE for people in that particular TIME PLACE and CIRCUMSTANCE...
That is why it is not recommended (although doable) to go past the WRITTINGS and CONCEPTS of current Acharya... That could become disastrous for a devotee's spiritual progress...
If that wouldn't have been true... then there would have been no need for succession of Acharyas writting and re-writting the same philosophical thesis...
So all the literature that is not translated by Srila Prabhupada is discarded by his faithfull followers...
The faithfull followers are contended with the statement made innumerable times by Srila Prabhupada: "GOING BACK HOME, BACK TO GODHEAD" : This is Shastra for a faithfull follower of Srila Prabhupada...
NOW IN MY SECOND EXAMPLE I WANT TO MAKE A POINT THAT REALIZATIONS DON'T COME FROM READING SHASTRA... THEY COME FROM INNER FAITH IN SRILA PRABHUPADA AS OUR GURU... (FAITH NEVER SEEKS PROOF)
SECOND EXAMPLE:
While on the south India tour Chaitanya Mahaprabhu went to a temple where one person who was completely illiterate was trying to read Bhagavad Gita... Since he couldn't read, he was going aaa...ddd.a.a......fff making some sounds and turning pages... But he was profusely shedding tears... The other brahmins sitting in the temple were making fun of him and insulting him...
Seeing that, Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu approached that man and inquired... "My Dear Sir... I am seeing that you are just making some sound and turning pages of this Bhagavad Gita... What exactly are you doing???" and the man replied... "My GURU-MAHARAJ instructed me to read this Bhagavad-Gita everyday and he promised that one day I will meet Krishna in person... I am completely illiterate so I can't read it... but I have faith in the words of my GURU-MAHARAJ so I am trying to read it..."
Then Chaitanya Mahaprabhu inquired... "But I can see you are shedding profuse tears... how is that???" the man replied... "I am just seeing this picture that the Supreme Personality who is the master and propreitor of everything there is... has taken up a job of menial charioteer for HIS devotee Arjuna... Seeing this Bhakta-Vatsal nature of Lord, I can't stop my tears..."
Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu lovingly embraced that man and said... "You have actually understood Bhagavad Gita"
The thing to notice here is that... the other unfaithfull people "So called scholars" sitting over there in the temple, didn't get the same mercy as this illiterate man... This is the difference between FAITH and SCHOLARLY ANALYSIS...
So the point I want to make is... ONE WHO HAS FAITH IN THE INFALLABLE-NESS OF WORDS COMING OUT OF SRILA PRABHUPADA's LOTUS LIPS... does not need any other Shastra or Word jugglery to meet Krishna... He doesn't need any PROOFS to see if SRILA PRABHUPADA IS RIGHT OR WRONG... HE IMPLICITLY BELEIVES, THAT IF IT IS SAID BY PRABHUPADA THEN IT MUST BE CORRECT... NO PROOFs REQUIRED... THAT IS FAITH... WHEN PRABHUPADA USES THE WORD "BACK"... then a faithfull devotee infers that we must have come from there otherwise how can we go BACK if we didn't come from there... NO PROOFs REQUIRED... FAITH IS REQUIRED...
REALIZATIONS DO NOT COME FROM READING SHASTRA... THEY COME FROM INNER IMPLICIT FAITH IN SRILA PRABHUPADA...
So GO WASTE YOUR TIME searching for PROOFS in Shastra...
Also one of the six GOSWAMIS (I can't remeber whether its Rupa Goswami or someone else... age is taking its toll on my memory) has remarked that too much study of shastra is also an impediment in devotion... The reason being, PRIDE THAT DEVELOPS from such study makes one think... OH I AM SO GREAT... I HAVE READ SO MANY BOOKS... I HAVE COLLECTED SO MANY SHASTRIC EVIDENCES... SO MANY PEOPLE FOLLOW ME... HOW DARE YOU OLD MAN QUESTION MY TREATISE... YOU MUST APOLOGIZE AT ONCE... FALL AT MY FEET AT ONCE... OR YOU WILL BE COMMITING A GREAT APARADH AGAINST A GREAT VAISHNAVA... Never mind if that old man is coming from a background where he is fortunate enough to be born in NILACALA near SAKSHI GOPAL temple in a VAISHNAVA FAMILY and has been worshipping there lordships from since in the womb of his mother...
So this kind of PRIDE develops from too much study of shastra... about which the Goswamis are warning us...
On a different note about Vaishnava Aparadh... I am not sure about your background and your SANSKARs... But just in case you are not fortunate enough to be born in India and if you haven't received proper up-bringing... then considering you to be the same age as of my SON, let me give you some advice...
Be very carefull when you deal with DHAM VASIS... Especially the Dham vasis of VRAJ, PURI and NAVA-DWIPA... I am sure you must be well versed with shastra, which tells that these Dham vasis are intimately connected with Krishna... Any offense INTENDED or OTHERWISE is a direct offense towards Krishna...
Just incase you have any doubts about NILACALA being a dham, here is an excerpt for your reference:
--------------------------------------- Lord Sri Krishna smiled slightly and spoke kindly, "Listen, My dear Siva, I am giving you a very beautiful place. Live here with all your associates and followers. This place is known as Ekamraka-vana. In this idyllic surrounding you will appear and be worshipped as Kotitigesvara. This place is in every way as captivating as Varanasi. Besides, this place is also spiritually extremely elevated, but is not known to all. Today I will reveal to you the esoteric significance of this place which is so dear to Me.
On the shores of the ocean, covering a very large area is the place known as Nilacala. This is also known as Purusottama ksetra or the abode of the Supreme Person. It has a most pleasing and peaceful atmosphere. Even at the time of the cosmic annihilation, this place remains intact, unscathed. I reside eternally here, and daily receive opulent offerings of foodstuffs. Its area is spread over eighty square miles. All living entities living within this area are, by the influence of this place, possessing four-handed forms, though visible only to the demigods and their equals. The demigods glorify this place as the most auspicious of all places of pilgrimage. The act of sleeping here is equivalent to deep meditation or samadhi. Similarly, lying postures accrued the pious result of offering obeisances to the Deity. Simply walking around here is the same as circumambulation, pradiksina, and all speeches are glorification.These are all enumerated in the Vedas.
Such is the potency of this ksetra that even if one eats fish here it is the same as eating sacred vegetarian food or havisya. This place is very dear to Me, hence it is known by My name. All the residents here are My equals. It is outside the jurisdiction of Yamaraja, the guardian of death. I am the judge here who decides on the evil and pious deeds and their results.
The place I have designated as your residence lies north of My abode, Puri. Your place is, as I have described before, very beautiful and charming. Here one can very easily attain liberation and bliss.
This place will be famous as Bhuvanesvara. The glories of Jagannatha Puri greatly impressed Lord Siva He again embraced the Lord's lotus feet and began to speak, "O Lord of my life, I have one prayer. I am always so falsely proud, therefore if I remain far away from your association, it is most detrimental for me. I am yearning in my heart to stay close to you, because I can never benefit from bad association. If You consider me Your servant, then kindly allow me a place in Your own abode. After hearing the wonderful glories of your Dham from your lotus lips, I am feeling an uncontrollable urge to simply live there. Living very humbly, I want to render menial service to you. All I pray for is just a little space in Your Dham. His voice choked with emotion, and tears coursed down his cheeks. (Caitanya, Antya Lila-2) ---------------------------------------
Hare Krishna...
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2015 2:42:14 GMT -5
>>These realizations don't come from studying Shastra... They come from INNER FAITH... ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL IRREVOCABLE FAITH IN SRILA PRABHUPADA... And ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL IRREVOCABLE REJECTION of everything that is not written by or said by Srila Prabhupada...
See how much unconditional faith you have in these words of Srila Prabhupada.
Paramahaṁsa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I remember once I heard a tape where you told us that we should not try to read the books of previous ācāryas. Prabhupāda: Hmm? Amogha: That we should not try to read Bhaktivinoda’s books or earlier books of other, all ācāryas. So I was just wondering… Prabhupāda: I never said that. Amogha: You didn’t say that? Oh. Prabhupāda: How is that? Amogha: I thought you said that we should not read the previous ācāryas’ books. Prabhupāda: No, you should read. Amogha: We should.
This is further emphasized:
established, by writing these books, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Hari-bhakti-vilasa, Vidagdhamadhava, so many books they have written. So we must go through them, must try to understand. Then we can understand what is the Caitanya-caritamrta, Caitanya-bhagavata, Caitanya-mangala, there are so many. Caitanya-candradoya by Prabodhananda Sarasvati. So many devotees, they have given us so many high literatures, we should consult. Therefore the prayer is, sri-caitanyamano-' bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale. Within the past five hundred years, many erudite scholars and ācāryas like Jīva Gosvāmī, Sanātana Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī, Vallabhācārya, and many other distinguished scholars even after the time of Lord Caitanya made elaborate commentaries on the Bhāgavatam. And the serious student would do well to attempt to go through them to better relish the transcendental messages.
Not only "you should" read the books of the previous acaryas, you should not limit yourself necessarily to your own group. You can take wisdom from any vaisnava group, as it is not group-think but finding pure devotee association which is stressed in the sastra. Again from Srila Prabhupada:
"Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami gives equal respect to all the preachers of the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who are compared to the branches of the tree. Iskcon is one of these branches." (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 10.7, purport) "There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid." (Nectar of Devotion: Chapter Nineteen p.41)
Bhaktivinoda in Krishna Samhita 8.22: Sloka and Purport are by him: sampradaya-virodho 'yam davanalo vicintyate “The eleventh obstacle for the Vaishnavas is sectarianism, which takes the shape of the forest fire. Due to sectarianism a person cannot accept anyone outside of his own group as a Vaishnava, and as a result he faces many obstacles in finding a guru and associating with sincere devotees. Therefore extinguishing the forest fire is most important by giving up this mentality.”
>>The thing to notice here is that... the other unfaithfull people "So called scholars" sitting over there in the temple, didn't get the same mercy as this illiterate man... This is the difference between FAITH and SCHOLARLY ANALYSIS...
This is entirely inappropriate and insulting, as there is no one unfaithful here. Studying the sastra and scholarly analysis of its contents is not proof of lack of faith. It is exactly what the six goswamis did- "nana sastra vicaranaika nipun..." and we are supposed to follow in their footsteps.
Your continual insults and false accusations are hardly befitting a disciple of Bhaktiswarupa Damodara. What a shame you are doing him, and yourself, such a terrible disservice.
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Post by Sunanda on Dec 14, 2015 3:15:44 GMT -5
Hare Krishna Krishna das (if that's your real name),
I think you've got it all backwards prabhu. You are the arrogant and unhumble provoker, pretending and trying to hide behind some kind of inquisitive façade with the real agenda of unnecessarily trying to expose some kind of fault in a serious and sincere Vaisnava and disciple of Srila Prabhupada, your own guru's Godbrother. Well, your tactics and erroneous methods didn't work. Your little game played out and you simply revealed your own true colors. You accomplished nothing, except to reveal your own foolishness and pride. Remember, spiritual life is about approaching other devotees, even if you differ, with a sincere and inquisitive attitude, not a challenging one. You presented yourself as simply asking some questions, but your arrogant and challenging tone was revealed within your first sentence. You real motivation was to destroy, not to understand or discuss tattva with a desire to increase your understanding. Even if what you say is 100% true (and I find some of your statements on jiva tattva rather questionable and unsubstantiated), at this point I won't accept anything you say because you have over-stepped the bounds of proper etiquette with regards to having a philosophical exchange with senior Vaisnavas. Remember, you are a guest on someone else's respected forum. You entered with a challenging mood, not one of openness to discuss tattva favorably and with the purpose of enlightening each other. Your statement to 'enlighten me' was most impudent and offensive in this regard.
The fact is, as Niscala has said, these are all inconceivable and incomprehensible truths in many ways and we all have much to learn as we approach the Supreme Lord. We need to keep an open mind to revelation, which can come from various sources. This process never ends, as the glories of the Lord are immeasurable.
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Post by Sunanda on Dec 14, 2015 3:50:53 GMT -5
I might further add, Krishna das (?), that your attitude of coming onto this forum and making the grand claim that YOU are now going to present the truth about jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada explained it (his 'take'?) for the benefit of all present and future readers to be ridiculous and demonic and further evidence of your disqualifications for instructing, guiding or teaching ANYONE. You're clearly another fanatic and self-made and promoting (false) guru. You have disqualified yourself from any realizations you talk about by having faith in Srila Prabhupada because you are an offender. You don't know any of us, yet you claim to come and instruct us, who are disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Shame on you. Please apologize immediately and redeem yourself.
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Post by Inquisitive Reader on Dec 14, 2015 7:13:19 GMT -5
Dear Sunanda Prabhu,
Please read my last post ADDRESSED TO NISCALA PRABHU carefully especially the last part...
Hare Krishna
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lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by lal on Dec 14, 2015 17:37:00 GMT -5
From the Gaudiya Math translation of Jaiva Dharma Ch 15 From the Narayana Maharaja translation: There is another version by Sarvabhavana included with the Vedabase, it can be seen on various places online, but due to the text being encrypted you cannot copy it, but here is a version on scribd, www.scribd.com/doc/72661404/Bhaktivinoda-Thakura-Jaiva-Dharma2 and you can download it from there as well or from other places like ebooks.iskcondesiretree.com/pdf/Gaudiya_Books%20/Bhaktivinoda_Thakura/Bhaktivinoda_Thakura_Jaiva_Dharma2.pdfHis translation is almost a copy of the Gaudiya Math version, and says the same thing as the above two translations. The idea that there are some jivas who do not have to become sadhana-siddha is refuted here. Any source which implies the opposite is coming from bad translations, as it is not taught by any of the older acharyas that there are two types of jivas other than jivas who are liberated and jivas who are not liberated (nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha). Bhaktivinoda makes it clear that when he says nitya-siddha he is referring to kaya-vyuha expansions, purna-shakti, who are direct expansions of Radha Krishna, like Balarama and Lalita, and not jivas. Jiva Goswami is saying that there are two types of jivas - those that are liberated and will never fall, and those that are conditioned, i.e. mukta-jivas and baddha-jivas. The mukta jivas are favorable to Krishna because of knowledge of our eternal relationship, and the baddha-jivas are ignorant of that knowledge which causes their conditioned state. While anadi literally means "no-beginning," it is also commonly used in a non-literal sense to mean "perpetually" and "incessantly" according to Sanskrit dictionaries. In the above translation by Kusakratha he uses "from time immemorial." If you think this implies two inherently different classes of jivas, i.e. some who have never been conditioned and have always been in lila, then the above statement would make no sense. That would need a third category of jivas instead of the two mentioned. This is because the nitya-baddha eventually become liberated and becomes nitya-mukta. So the above from Jiva Goswami cannot refer to jivas who have never been conditioned because he is saying there are only two types of jivas - the liberated and the conditioned, not those who have always been liberated and those who have always been conditioned - what about those who used to be conditioned? That would require a third class of jiva. That is never mentioned by any source - only nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The above states that those who are liberated are liberated because of jnana-bhavat, knowledge of God, and conversely the conditioned souls are conditioned by a lack of that. Krishna makes it clear in the Gita that all jivas are born into the conditioned state and become overcome by the seeming dualities of the world, and then become affected by ignorance of the truth and develop conditioning based on that ignorance. Krishna: sarva-bhutani sammoham - sarva means: all and every, sammoham means the mind becomes overcome by the illusion of this world, i.e. not seeing Krishna as the cause of everything within and outside of you. Eventually they all become liberated and then they never fall - they are the mukta-jivas Bhaktivinoda and Bhaktisiddhanta are referencing. They are not speaking about some other jivas who were never conditioned - that is not taught by the previous acharyas or shastra. It is made clear by Krishna that the conditioned state of the baddha-jiva is not the fault of the jiva (Gita 5.15) that the conditioned state of the jiva is caused by the inherent nature (svabhāvas tu pravartate) of the jiva at birth (Gita 5.14), which is ignorance of spiritual truth (ajñānenāvṛtaḿ). That ignorance caused the jiva to become overcome by the seeming dualities (Gita 7.27) and then it develops it's conditioned perspective of reality because of ignorance of the truth that - vasudeva sarvam iti. Krishna states that the cure (Gita 5.16) to the cause is - jñānena tu tad ajñānaṁ - knowledge which destroys the ignorance which caused the conditioned state in the first place.
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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2015 20:35:14 GMT -5
Some interesting points, Lal prabhu, very difficult to refute, and I don't feel inclined to, as it does not affect the outcome of the treatise under discussion, that the conditioned jiva did not fall from Vaikuntha, what to speak of the major work about which this forum is focused. It is difficult to conceptualize beginnings or origins in objects that are eternally existing, and certainly there are only two categories of jivas- conditioned and liberated, whether the liberated ones were once non-liberated or not. But your point that Baladeva only manifests the complete potency and the jiva sakti is incomplete, is a good one, if at all we can conceptualize such a thing. I would be interested to hear Satya Narayan Babaji's take on this particular point, as he categorized three subsets of jiva- nitya siddha, baddha mukta and nitya baddha, in his book In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall.
'Inquisitive reader" or Krishna Dasa postulated the following, but has not yet presented sastric evidence for it. In order to fulfill the desire of HIS beloved parts and parcels, Krishna manifested his first expansion as Baladev Prabhu... All the JIVAs were transfered under the shelter of this first expansion... Then Baladev Prabhu manifested the spiritual world and all those JIVAs who were inclined to SERVE, appeared from Baladev Prabhu into that spiritual world... These JIVAs engaged in serving Krishna in one of the FOUR PRIMARY RASAs (ie: Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya and Madhurya).
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 14, 2015 20:48:47 GMT -5
Krishna Das, aka, Inquisitive Reader, is officially banned from posting on this forum.
You've had your day in court and you have lost. Case closed. Any further posts by you will be deleted.
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lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by lal on Dec 14, 2015 22:34:16 GMT -5
Some interesting points, Lal prabhu, very difficult to refute, and I don't feel inclined to, as it does not affect the outcome of the treatise under discussion, that the conditioned jiva did not fall from Vaikuntha, what to speak of the major work about which this forum is focused. It is difficult to conceptualize beginnings or origins in objects that are eternally existing, and certainly there are only two categories of jivas- conditioned and liberated, whether the liberated ones were once non-liberated or not. But your point that Baladeva only manifests the complete potency and the jiva sakti is incomplete, is a good one, if at all we can conceptualize such a thing. I would be interested to hear Satya Narayan Babaji's take on this particular point, as he categorized three subsets of jiva- nitya siddha, baddha mukta and nitya baddha, in his book In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall. 'Inquisitive reader" or Krishna Dasa postulated the following, but has not yet presented sastric evidence for it. In order to fulfill the desire of HIS beloved parts and parcels, Krishna manifested his first expansion as Baladev Prabhu... All the JIVAs were transfered under the shelter of this first expansion... Then Baladev Prabhu manifested the spiritual world and all those JIVAs who were inclined to SERVE, appeared from Baladev Prabhu into that spiritual world... These JIVAs engaged in serving Krishna in one of the FOUR PRIMARY RASAs (ie: Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya and Madhurya). In his book Satyanarayana quotes shastra and the acharyas to the effect that all jivas exist in state of stasis or sleep until first being brought into consciousness, he quotes CC Antya 3.78-80 and some others. Then he relies on the mistranslation of Bhaktivinoda pointed out in my previous comment to put forth the idea that some souls are never conditioned. But that is not supported by anything else from him. Also it contradicts the quotes he uses to establish that all jivas begin active life from a beginningless sleep into life in the world, because there is no mention of a pre-world existence where they are given a choice to go to the spiritual world in any shastra - they simply say they go from sleep to the world then delusion. Plus it also contradicts other shastras like the Gita when Krishna states all jivas become deluded when first taking birth. For example he also quotes the 10th canto where the personified Vedas say: Here it states: ajayā tv ajām anuśayīta guṇāḿś - ajaya means illusion, ajam means unborn, anuśayīta means lies down with or embraces with the connotation of from a dormant state, in Pali it means dormant, and gunan means takes on the qualities - this phrase means that from an unborn state the jiva then embraces illusion, and then takes on the qualities associated with being deluded. It states first you lie down with illusion or are born into it from a dormant state, and then you taken on qualities based on being deluded. The idea that first you develop those qualities by some unknown unspoken process, become affected by some delusion and then go to the material world is contradictory to this, and all other shastra. The translation by Hridayananda is a bit off when it says the "jiva loses all his spiritual qualities." The words are more correct in the synonyms: apeta — deprived; bhagaḥ — of his assets, or fortune. The idea that it lost something it had isn't what is being said, apeta means: free from, sidelined, deprived. The sloka is saying all the glories of Vaikuntha are deprived from the conditioned soul until it attains perfection. The Vishnu Rahasya states: Vishnu Rahasya (a well known Vaishnava Pancharatra) The idea that there is a pre-birth state where the jivas are given a choice is not taught anywhere and makes no sense, and simply contradicts various shastras. Plus, as stated in the above verse - how can you choose to go to bondage or Vaikuntha if you do not first become educated enough to understand the concepts by taking on a body? If you have always been in a sleep stasis before being brought to consciousness, then you have no education and are exactly like a newborn baby, literally like a newborn because you have zero experience of anything. You do not have the capability to choose anything. Imagine Krishna asking a newborn baby to choose devotion or something else? And then bases your entire life on that? That is not taught - what is taught is that first you must become enlightened, only enlightened souls enter into lila in Vaikuntha - sadhana-siddha first then nitya-mutka. Mukti means liberated from ignorance, i.e. enlightened. The Bhagavatam states that the jiva becomes deluded first by maya (illusion) due to ignorance and then has to accept samsara, as does the Gita - because that is the nature of coming out of sleep stasis - you know nothing at all, which causes you to become deluded by the seeming dualities of the world. When coming out of the dormant state you are ignorant and need to become educated to become enlightened to absolute truth. This means that all jivas take their first birth and first become deluded due to ignorance. Just like Krishna says in the Gita. Then they either become enlightened, or have to undergo samsara till they do. Jiva Goswami quotes these in Priti-sandarbha: He then goes on to explain those verses: As we see, all shastra and previous acharyas always state that first the jiva takes birth, and then becomes deluded due to ignorance, and then attain mukti. That is the order, from ignorance to knowledge that all jivas undergo. Which is why Bhaktivinoda states as I quoted in my previous comment, that all jivas must become sadhana-siddha to take part in nitya-lila.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 15, 2015 16:18:53 GMT -5
I just received this eMail today so I'm sharing it with everyone here for obvious reasons:
On Dec 15, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Govinda Priya <govindapriya@mail.com> wrote:
Dear Uttamasloka Prabhu, I have a confession to make... My name is Govindapriya dasi. I am the grand-daughter of the person whom you know as Inquisitive Reader. Theres been a lot of confusion (partly me being responsible for that), and thus I want to come clean on it. First a little bit of my background. I was born and brought-up in Nilacala. I am a post-graduate in Arts with English as my Major. I was the one who had read your article (book/treatise) on internet when I was searching for something regarding Raganuga Bhakti. After reading it, I had some dis-agreements. So later on I read it out to my grand-father. My grand-father is a simple man. He is educated and can understand a lit bit of basic english. He claims that he learnt english at a late age only so that he could read Prabhupada's books. But right now due to old-age, his vision is impared and he has got no idea how to use computers. So I read out your book to him... partly in english and somethings which he couldn't understand, I told him in our native tongue. So he also heard what you had to say in you book. He also had the same dis-agreements as I had. I asked him should I write on his forum about the points on which I dis-agree. You know what was the first question he asked... He asked who is that person... When I said u were such n such and you were a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, then he immediately reacted, don't say anything... He is touched by Srila Prabhupada so he is worshipable for us... This is my Grand-Father... He said even if he might have mis-understood some points, we should not try to correct great vaishnavas. But I insisted that I want to atleast make him aware of the mistakes... After lot of insisting, he said then approach in the mood of Inquiry and ask him such questions which might induce him to think about it. From there this thing started. I used to tell him about your replies, but never had the courage to tell him about your abuses. So he is even at the time of wrtting this email, completely unaware that you all have been ridiculing and hurling abuses against him. He simply was telling me the spiritual arguments and I was putting it on the forum in my language... Now I am feeling bad, because, the person who has never offended even the STOOL COLLECTOR (long time back in our village, there is caste of people who used to collect everyone's stool in the morning) in his entire life, is being abused and called names in public forum. I became the reason for all of you to commit SEVERE VAISANAVA APARADH towards a DHAM VASI... Which is why in one of my latest post I tried to indicate the age and place where my grand-father is from. But unfortunately none of you in the forum took a notice of it... And even after that you continued your offenses... I remember there is a pastime of Rupa-Goswami (such an exalted devotee) where he lost his BHAJAN just because he, without his knowledge had offended some guy who was limping while walking... I am sure you must be aware of this pastime... So VAISHNAVA APARADH whether knowingly or unknowingly is equally bad... On top of that he is a DHAM VASI... and a BORN VAISHNAVA... His guru-maharaj was not willing to give him initiation. When they met in Puri, Srila Bhaktisvarup Damodar Maharaj said to him, I am not qualified enough to give you diksha... But my grand-father fell at his feet and said, I couldn't touch the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, but you were fortunate enough to do that, now please allow me to touch your feet and become fortunate... So reluctantly Maharaj gave him diksha without a ceremony... Maharaj cited that, once Srila Prabhupada was asked by a Vraj Basi for Diksha, and Srila Prabhupada said I would be commiting an offense by making you my servant... and thus Srila Prabhupada did not give him diksha... So I beg you for forgiveness, because of me all of you have done immeasurable Vaishnava Aparadh... If possible please beg forgiveness in your mind to my grand-father... Please don't continue with abuse on the forum... My grand-father doesn't know what is happening on the forum... He is thinking there is a very healthy discussion going on... and therefore he asks me so what did he say... and then he says... ok so you please reply in this way... Then I put it in english language whatever he says in my mother tongue... I got a little upset when you first started out roughly (maybe you had some issues with someone vedic somebody)... So I couldn't take it that someone was abusing my grand-father and I lost it... I started being rough myself... and I apologize for that... But please I just wanted to make you all aware that unknowingly all of you have committed, UNBLIEVABLE AMOUNT OF VAISHNAVA APARADHA, and it will be bad if I let it continue... I wanted to give you a chance to beg forgiveness from that holy soul which is my Grand-Father... Around 10-15 years back (I can't exactly re-collect the year), but I personally heard Maharaj saying this to my Grand-Father in private, he said with blessing from a Dham Vasi like yourself, I can definitely go back to Krishna... This is Srila Prabhupada's special mercy on me that he arranged for me to have your blessed association... You have no idea who my Grand-Father is... and I take full blame for that... But please if possible beg forgiveness from Krishna for the offenses done, and please don't continue to hurl abuses in the public forum by his name... I can't apologize enough to have kept you all in dark for so long... Please forgive me.... Hare Krishna Govindpriya Dasi...
(If it is possible please restore my Grand-Father's glory in public... I don't know how you may do it... But if possible please do that because, other people who might visit your forum, and who might read the posts, may get some wrong ideas and might commit offsence unknowingly.)
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 15, 2015 16:23:20 GMT -5
Here is my response to Govindapriya dasi...
Unfortunately, your mood was not simply ‘inquiry’. It started off in a reasonable way but it quickly became accusative, arrogant and condescending. Your use of ALL CAPS, which is tantamount to YELLING in written correspondence was another indication of immaturity and inappropriate behavior.
I have not been abusive to your grandfather, and neither has anyone else. YOU were the one writing and using your own language and tone, so YOU were the focus of my statements, unless he actually said everything exactly as you wrote.
We did not commit Vaisnava aparadha. I know very well what Vaisnava aparadha is and none of us crossed that line. You are mistaken and trying to turn it around on us. This is your immaturity and trying to spread the blame, but it’s not going to work. This is all your fault. We did nothing wrong.
Your language was abusive and condescending and I simply put it right back in your face. That is NOT aparadha. You also don’t know who you’re dealing with here, so you don’t know that I speak frankly and honestly and that’s all I did. Saying that your statements were straw-man arguments is not aparadha. It is speaking the truth. Even if I thought it was your grandfather it is still not aparadha. You insulted me repeatedly and I simply showed that you were exhibiting the very bad behavior you wrongly accused me of. That is not aparadha.
We certainly did notice that. However, you don’t get to pull rank as a Dhama-vasi and threaten us because you were born in Nilacala. That doesn’t give you a free pass or immunity if you speak in insulting ways, which you most certainly did. Others confirmed it as well, so it’s not just me.
I have participated in more discussions than you can count and I never get heavy unless someone steps out of line and becomes insulting like you did. I am not some meek wimpy person exhibiting pseudo-humility who lets people walk all over them. That is not my style or personality. You chose the wrong person to fight with. That was your big mistake and now you’re paying the price. This is all on you and not on us. You are way out of your league philosophically and otherwise, and I hope you've learned your lesson.
We were NOT offensive. That is your mistaken interpretation. YOU were the offensive one and it’s there in black and white on my forum for everyone to see for themselves. You let your anger cloud your intelligence.
I am not worried in the least. I wrote a whole section on Vaisnava aparadha in my book on raganuga-bhakti, so I’m well aware of what it is and I never cross that line. Being strong with my replies is not Vaisnava aparadha.
You don’t understand what Vaisnava aparadha really is. We have not committed Vaisnava aparadha. We chastised the person who was speaking foolishly and offensively. That’s it. That is not aparadha. This is all on you and only you, so take full responsibility.
Sorry but that’s not going to happen. You are the one who needs to beg forgiveness. Not us.
Then he is innocent. You deceived us and acted very badly. You alone are guilty.
You sounded exactly like a person who eMailed me with similar questions and a similar negative tone and attitude. I told him to post his challenges on my forum and then your posts came right after that, so that’s why I made that connection.
We were not abusing him because it wasn’t him speaking. You deceived us. And the discussion was going nicely until you became insulting. YOU started the negativity and bad attitude - not me. I only challenged you on that.
Apology accepted.
I forgive you, but once again, I reiterate: none of us committed Vaisnava aparadha against your grandfather, because it wasn’t his words. They were your words. Chastising and exposing an offensive person is not an offense. I just turned all of your negativity back on you, but you couldn’t handle it. And we all thought that the language of the posts did not sound like a 78 year old man, so we were wondering about the veracity of your identity. Now we know.
You are forgiven.
I’m going to post this eMail on the forum for everyone to see. That will restore your grandfather’s position. So be ready for the responses.
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