mpdas
New Member
Posts: 3 
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Post by mpdas on Jun 6, 2015 22:27:47 GMT -5
Question: Is our eternal identity original or not?
My own understanding is that it is original.
And I also understand that you may desire to have an eternal spritual identity, and if I desire the original one I may be successful. If I desire some other identity it will be material.
Please note that I am not asking if we wake up to Krishna lila again after some time in Maya. That is another question.
This post was inspired by reading BG 15.7 with Srila Prabhupada's purport. He is using the word reviving two times and the word original one time (if I count correctly). |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 7, 2015 18:51:34 GMT -5
In the Bhagavad-gita verse and purport you referenced, Srila Prabhupada also says, "In other words, at liberation the living entity gets a spiritual body by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead."
So there's a bit of a contradiction, in that he says before that, "It is stated here that when a living entity gives up this material embodiment and enters into the spiritual world, he revives his spiritual body, and in his spiritual body he can see the Supreme Personality of Godhead face to face."
So on the one hand Srila Prabhupada says the jiva's spiritual body is 'revived' and then he says he 'gets' a spiritual body from Krsna.
Here is my analysis. Since the jivas are tatastha-sakti, they do not possess the complete svarupa-sakti inherently as part of their svarupa, but they have the 'potential' or 'capacity' to do so. In order to enter and function in the spiritual realm, ie: the svarupa-sakti, the tatastha jiva requires a body composed of the svarupa-sakti, and that body is 'awarded' or 'given' to the jiva by Krsna through the svarupa-sakti. We know that the jivas are not fully svarupa-sakti because the svarupa-sakti can never be covered by maya but the tatastha jivas can be covered by maya.
I have not read anything in the acaryas' books where they discuss this idea in that way. They all say to follow your natural inclinations and preferences for a particular type of relationship and to determine whether that inclination becomes nourished by reading the lilas associated with that desire. If it does, then you should keep cultivating that desire and if it doesn't, then you should determine if another relationship is more appropriate. They never say it is material and they don't specify it as your 'identity' - only the 'type' of relationship you desire. The desire for the relationship comes first and your identity is developed after that in order to express that type of relationship.
So the first thing is to become firmly established in the type of relationship you desire and determine which nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi best exemplifies that relationship. Only then do you begin to develop your identity per the ekadasa-bhavas.
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Post by niscala on Jun 8, 2015 3:55:57 GMT -5
The issue of whether prema or bhakti is dormant in the jiva or acquired by the mercy of guru and Krsna is related to whether we have an inherent spiritual form- as obviously that form is composed of prema- what else would it be composed of?
Many who side with dormancy, use Srila Prabhupada statements, though none of the sastric verses, including the one below, actually mention that bhakti can be dormant. But in commentating upon this verse in only ONE paragraph, Srila Prabhupada affirms both acquisition AND inherency or dormancy of devotional service:
nitya-siddha-krishna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya
Srila Prabhupada's commentary:
"Dormant devotional service to Krishna is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for Krishna is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija."
"Dormancy" in this sense then cannot mean fully present but asleep- as bhakti dispels all ignorance with its first rays, plus it contradicts Srila Prabhupada's statement that it is acquired as a seed. Dormancy can mean potential. I may have potential to develop an ability, and once I develop that ability, I could say "I always had it in me, it was just dormant" but actually what one had, was not exactly the ability at all, but the potential to develop it.
We all have the potential to love Krsna, as that is in our nature. That potential is always present, but is being directed to Krsna's energies, and is therefore scattered due to lack of prema. Thus, we develop raga and rati for sense objects- intense attachments- because the potentiality must be expressed somehow- much like a potential for good action, without the good, expresses itself in action that is not good.
When we waken to our true nature and relationship with Krsna (sambandha) due to the seed of bhakti being planted or received in our hearts, that potential becomes active in pursuing the real objective or visayi, instead of illusory dream-like visayi that only resembles Krsna slightly or pervertedly. Coming out of the dream-state, we are very much awakened and enlivened, and there is a goal to what we always had within us.
That goal is also given or awarded- by the swarupa sakti- it is prema.
It may be argued that undoubtedly the bhakti seed is planted in the heart, because that is how it is described- guru krsna prasade paya bhakti lata bija- but prema is inherent.
How can bhakti be given as a seed, and prema, which is the full expression of bhakti- the fruit of the fully mature bhakti lata, how could that be inherent? If anything could possibly be inherent, it would be the immature form of bhakti- but even that is described as received.
Logically, then, prema cannot be inherent, nor does the above verse say it is- only that it is "eternally perfect". Since prema is not inherent, the spiritual form, of which it is composed, cannot be inherent, or it would be like saying there is no bread on the plate, but there is sandwiches.
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