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Post by anonymousbaba on Feb 2, 2013 12:04:27 GMT -5
Having now read to page 210 of this book I find it to be increasingly difficult to follow and irrelevant. If there is no way to be proactive in obtaining lobha (except to beg for Krishna's mercy) then reading about the finer details (of which there are many) of the evolution of my eternal identity become confusing, irrelevant and may even have a deterrent effect as I lose hope in despair. After all, I've been at this for around 40 years and have yet to get the blessing of Krishna! Seems I must be missing something, but I haven't found out what that might be in your book.
We cannot qualify ourselves for lobha. There are only two sources: Krishna and advanced raganuga sadhus. All of this is kept properly hush-hush, so where do we go to beg/get the mercy? Canvass all of our godbrothers and godsisters?
If my own experience is similar to that of others then it is perhaps not surprising that raganuga remains a non-issue in Iskcon. It seems that there may not be any qualified raganuga sadhus in Iskcon since we don't hear of anyone preaching about or bestowing the mercy. After all, if they were truly experiencing the bliss it seems that they would want to teach it, share it and distribute it.
Are there genuine raganuga sadhus among Narayana M's group? Perhaps we be looking there? Perhaps we should go to the Tripurari Swami? Gaudiya Math? You Uttamsloka Prabhu?
Where are the raganuga sadhus that we may beg lobha from? Where is s/he to be found? Not finding any I will smash my head against the rock and enter into the fire. Where will I find Lord Gauranga, the reservoir of all wonderful qualities and his merciful devotees?
Begging for the mercy,
Anonymous Baba
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 2, 2013 13:02:46 GMT -5
Prabhu...
Sorry to hear that you're having difficulty following the book. Out of many who have responded to me privately, you are the first to say that. Others have had quite the opposite experience. I don't say that to diminish your experience, only to inform you of the broader reactions among the readers so far.
The acaryas wrote these books for people who have no qualifications, in an attempt to inform them of all relevant details, for their benefit. Even if one is not qualified to practice these processes, certainly a devotee with a history such as yours is qualified to learn about them. It's better to know the facts and details than not, wouldn't you agree?
As far as lobha is concerned, let me offer another perspective to assuage your frustration. Don't think that you are limited to finding a rasika devotee from the contemporary Vaisnava community. Krsna imposes no such restrictions. No need to give up hope.
The first thing you need to grasp is that lobha is bestowed specifically in conjunction with the awakening in your heart for a particular relationship with Krsna, and your focused desire to attain that goal. Greed for your desired relationship.
It's as simple as this: Your past history of sincere sadhana and service are a given and a suitable prerequisite. So now, you read the lila books and observe where your heart is drawn in terms of how you want to participate in Krsna's lila. Do you want to be with Krsna in Vraja? If you answer yes, then what kind of relationship do you want to have with Him? If you have no specific inclination at this point, then don't rush anything. It's all based on your spontaneous desires. You can't force it.
If you have an inclination but it isn't fully clear or strong, then Jiva Goswami advises (as stated in chapter 5 on Determining your rasa) that you should patiently cultivate and refine that desire by reading, and discussing it with suitable associates, along with chanting, praying etc. You'll definitely get what you ask for sooner than later if your motives are genuine.
If you feel certain about your rasa, whether it's sakhya, madhurya, dasya or vatsalya, then you have the seed which will become the basis for the bestowal of lobha. Lobha is only bestowed in conjunction with a firm conviction and clear understanding of your desired rasa. That's how every single acarya presents it - greed for your rasa with Krsna. Greed has no meaning outside of that context.
If you are confident of your desired rasa, then just beg Krsna for lobha. You can also ask Him for the association of compatible rasika Vaisnavas, and He will guide you to those whom He deems valuable for your progress at that point. If none appear, then don't worry. You are still well equipped with the knowledge and guidance from the books of the acaryas as I have presented in my book
I found no suitable association while studying their books and writing my book, but it wasn't an impediment, because Krsna guided me by Prabhupada's mercy. There's no reason that can't happen in your life either.
The absence of raganuga-sadhakas that you mention is one of the reasons I wrote this book. It was/is my sincere hope that my book will encourage such devotees to come forward and join in an international community of like-minded devotees. In addition, I hope that my book will pave the way for those who didn't know the facts or were confused by the plethora of misinformation and ignorance that exists on these subjects.
Raganuga isn't a process that lends itself to "preaching" in public. It's something that is taught in smaller more personal groups because of the confidential aspects therein. This discussion forum represents an opportunity for raganuga sadhu-sanga, where those already practicing raganuga can discuss with others and help those on the door step.
Don't give up hope. You have the acaryas' teachings and Krsna's direct internal guidance, Prabhupada's mercy for his sincere disciples and now the beginning of raganuga sadhu-sanga, of which this forum is one example.
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Post by mahashaktidas on Feb 2, 2013 15:52:11 GMT -5
Dear Baba,
Lobha or the greed to perform raganuga bhakti is a natural but not necessarily absolute outcome from performing vaidhi. We get so much sukriti from vaidhi and serving our guru, Krsna and the Vaishnavas. Spiritual desire increases naturally as does the desire to enter into Krsna leela. As is pointed out in the book, our anarthas are decreasing by vaidhi but do not have to be completely absent before engaging in raganuga.
You say you read the book and felt it is irrelevant. I read the book and felt a cloud of ignorance go bye bye. I am more enlivened than I've been in a long, long time.
The only thing that keeps us from tasting Krsna's mercy if we are performing devotional service is our attitude. If we have committed Vaishnava aparadha, guru aparadha, nam, dham or seva aparadhas, that can slow down, erase or detain our progress. There really is nothing else that can prevent our advancement.
Its a good idea to take inventory of our attitude, see where it can be corrected and make the necessary changes. Once those changes are made, taste for bhakti will naturally increase. As long as we remain humble and sincere and avoid fault finding, as mentioned in the book, we should be good to go!
I guess I might have been a little circumspect in answering your question but to put it plainly, Uttamasloka's book in itself can arouse the desire to perform raganuga bhakti. That is it's intent and sole purpose my dear godbrother. Read it again. You'll get it!
Wishing you well and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Radhe Radhe!
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Post by anonymousbaba on Feb 2, 2013 22:40:40 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka and Mahasakti Prabhus,
Pranams. Thanks for your reply, but it seems that you have both missed my point which is, quoting the book, this:
Lobha, greed, cannot be induced mechanically. It is not the result of performing a certain quantity of sadhana. It is not directly dependent on the number of rounds one chants. One may engage in sadhana for many lifetimes and still not obtain lobha.
Lobha is in fact, a gift of mercy bestowed directly by Krishna or a Vaishnava who is absorbed in raganuga-bhakti (rasika). There is no other way to acquire lobha.[/i]
So if lobha is not something to be obtained by sadhana, japa, good preaching, sadhu sanga, not by distributing a million books or chanting a million rounds, nor by attempting to please guru or Krishna, etc, etc, etc. we are at totally at the mercy of (rasika) guru and Krishna. There is nothing that we can be proactive about to get it. Ok then, when will we see that mercy? We are helpless. And if we do not begin to see it after decades of good sadhana then one begins to lose hope that it will ever be obtained.
This is why I say it becomes pointless to learn all about the culture of Krishna’s inner circle if we have no access to it, or even if we don’t know if that is the object of our greed.
Mahashakti, you say it is an attitude problem, and it may well be, since, as we know, attitude makes the difference in so many things. Very well, how do we get an attitude adjustment? Who is that guru that can examine us and find out our deficiency and correct it? Needless to say that requires a fairly deep knowledge of a person, and those type of relationships are quite rare, if for no other reason than nobody seems to stay in one place long enough any more.
Is it aparadha? Well, perhaps that may also be, but at least in my case I have looked and looked to find out who I may have offended and can't find the offense (maybe because of my attitude?).
Then Mahasakti you say Uttamasloka's book in itself can arouse the desire to perform raganuga bhakti. But the desire is not the qualifier. Read the above quote again: There is no other way to acquire lobha except as a gift of mercy bestowed directly by Krishna or a Vaishnava who is absorbed in raganuga-bhakti (rasika). That statement, which he makes repeatedly, tells us it is not a matter of our desire: it only comes as a gift.
But I am just one person, and across the entire society of thousands and thousands we do not see a breakthrough. Even if it were attempted to be kept private the word would have a way of getting out. So where is the mercy?
His Holiness Narayana Maharaja was reported to be a rasika guru, but I am not in touch with anyone from their camp. Perhaps the assembled devotees can say who in that camp has the adhikary to bestow such mercy? If so we should all beat a path to that person, this camp or that camp be damned as such considerations have no place in these transcendental considerations. If we can find that rasika guru let us queue up before him/her to beg for his/her mercy. Or failing to find that person do we simply continue our sadhana with the disappointment (relatively speaking) that we are destined for Vaikuntha and not Goloka Vrindavana?
If you tell me that learning about the culture of Goloka Vrindavana and hearing the pastimes of the Lord will generate the lobha, great, we have something to work with. But if the only it is had is as a gift that is bestowed for no certain reason, then what is to be our motivation?
It must simply be that our devotional service is its own reward, as Krishna told the gopis.
Das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 3, 2013 2:55:15 GMT -5
AnonyBaba...
It's clear you missed the point completely, so perhaps I didn't explain it thoroughly. You don't just sit around waiting or hoping for lobha. I never said that anywhere, nor was it ever implied. I explained exactly what you should do, but you didn't even respond directly to what I said.
It's all about YOUR desired relationship with Krsna. Raganuga-bhakti is the practice by which you can attain that desired relationship, but you have to know what you want first. You can't practice raganuga until you've established that very specific goal. It has no meaning otherwise. Vaidhi-bhakti is the practice for those who don't know what relationship they want. In that practice you are a generic servant of Krsna - dasa anu dasa. Very non-specific, non-spontaneous.
And I said clearly that there IS a proactive endeavor on your part by reading the lila to see what your inclinations are for a rasa with Krsna. How else will you know how you fit into Krsna's lila if you don't hear about it regularly? You went all over the place except to the heart of the matter. Focus on that and it will become clear. The first section in chapter 2 is all about hearing the lila, with extensive quotes from BVT and VCT explaining why this is so critically important.
Why have you done 40 years of service and sadhana? What was the purpose and ultimate goal for all your endeavors? It's to have a relationship with Krsna in Vraja. Your guru isn't going to tell you what that relationship is and neither will Krsna. It's up to you - it's your desire. What do you want? It is all about desire, so you have misunderstood in saying otherwise. I made that point repeatedly in my book, so I'm not sure how you missed that. Desire is the root of proactivity.
Once again. If you want a relationship with Krsna and you are certain which rasa it is, then you are on the door step of raganuga. That's it. It is that firm seed desire that is the threshold of lobha. If you don't know what relationship you want, then you're not ready, no matter how much service you've done or for how many multiple lifetimes. That is a key point to grasp.
And please understand - it's what ALL of the acaryas have said. Read the books I used and see if you can find anything else. You won't. I've just related what they have ALL said, without distorting anything.
So, assuming you are fully sincere and honest and you know what relationship you want, if you can find a rasika devotee to associate with, that association will result in you understanding the nature of lobha by seeing it directly over time, along with their guidance and instructions. And by that association it will manifest in your heart by the mercy of that devotee. A devotee with lobha is compassionate and wants everyone to attain Krsna, and if you're sincere and ready to take advantage of that benediction, you'll get it. If you're not ready to dedicate your life to that pursuit as your top priority, it's not likely you'll get it. It's a big commitment.
In the absence of such association, it is your proactive desire to attain that relationship with Krsna that will invoke Krsna's mercy in the form of lobha. But, to reiterate, it's not likely you'll get that benediction unless you are ready to make that your priority above all else.
You have been the recipient of various forms of mercy for 40 years in this lifetime so it's not an entirely new concept. It's just that lobha is unique, rare, and very specific to raganuga-bhakti, and it is not bestowed for no certain reason. It is very specific. That's the core of your misunderstanding.
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Post by gaurakeshava on Feb 3, 2013 12:51:08 GMT -5
Lobha, greed, cannot be induced mechanically. It is not the result of performing a certain quantity of sadhana. It is not directly dependent on the number of rounds one chants. One may engage in sadhana for many lifetimes and still not obtain lobha. But this is true also for any form of Sadhana. Just mechanically chanting will not bring perfection even in Vaidhi. bahu janma kare yadi sravana, kirtana tabu ta’ na paya krishna-pade prema-dhana TRANSLATION If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting. CC Adi 8.16 Bhakti requires some efforts. Still one is not assured of the result in one birth. Arjuna would not have posed the question to Lord Krsna if it were not so. Just as their may be obstacles to the goal of attaining Goloka so also to even attaining Vaikuntha. |
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Post by gaurakeshava on Feb 3, 2013 13:20:12 GMT -5
Vaidhi-bhakti is the practice for those who don't know what relationship they want. In that practice you are a generic servant of Krsna - dasa anu dasa. Very non-specific, non-spontaneous. Vaidhi may be non-specific sometimes but I would not go so far as to say that it must be all the time. The Alwars give examples of moods very similar to those expressed in Gaudiya Vaisnavism but sometimes very different as well. One Alwar in one place laments in the mood of a lady whose daughter is in love with Lord Narasimha. Whereas Lady Saint Andal wrote of her love for Krsna in Vrndavan in the mood of a Gopika. Nayaki bhava is there even among some of the male Alwars. Most of their 4000 songs are about Lord Krsna but they also express different moods and desires for interaction with other Avataras. So there are plenty of examples of Vaisnavas who knew exactly what they wanted and how they wanted to serve not only Lord Krsna but other Avataras. |
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Post by mahashaktidas on Feb 3, 2013 16:39:47 GMT -5
If you tell me that learning about the culture of Goloka Vrindavana and hearing the pastimes of the Lord will generate the lobha, great, we have something to work with. Read more: raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=17#ixzz2Js8pcxh9Bingo! Hearing the Pastimes of the Lord! That is the impetus! At some point, when the heart is softened enough from chanting and seva, a natural desire to serve Their Lordships does arise. If no desire arises after much chanting, then offenses are holding us back. You, dear Baba, are saying that chanting can never bring us to lobha as though the gift of lobha and chanting are mutually exclusive. You say that lobha is so independent in it's bestowal that it has nothing to do with anything except the sheer mercy of Guru and Krsna. Prabhu, your taking the discussion to an unnatural and analytically extreme conclusion. Your wrong! Bhakti is also independent as to whom she graces. So is Krsna for that matter. Guru is also independent. So how do we get these things? Through desire!! In Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krsna says four types of persons approach me. Upon approaching Me, I take away their impure desire and give them bhakti. What is the impetus for raganuga bhakti? Hearing the Lord's Pastimes in the association of those who have it creates the extreme desire/greed to obtain it for oneself. Radhe Radhe PS: I know you will probably contest my answer, dear Baba :-) |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 3, 2013 16:53:52 GMT -5
Gaurakesava...
Good points. I should have said vaidhi-bhakti for Gaudiya Vaisnavas, and perhaps not all even at that.
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Post by niscala on Mar 4, 2013 20:53:33 GMT -5
This forum is just overflowing with proactivity! I'm sure that our baba will know exactly what to do now. Read and absorb oneself in lila books; pray; and desire. Also, avoid offenses. Btw, I find the instruction to avoid offenses to be difficult, as it is a negative imposition. It is better to instruct the mind to be kind and forgiving, loving and friendly. If one does all that, and still progress is not perceived, then one should just be very much patient, I might add, because when the cobbler rejoiced at Narada's telling him he would be liberated in as many lives as there were leaves on the tree, Krsna delivered him immediately. Another point I would like to add is in response to Baba questioning why Uttama has put in so many details of Goloka- Uttama has addressed that in the book. If one is to stop identifying as this body, and start identifying as an associate of the Lord, one needs information of one's friends and family members- what they look like, what qualities they have, what they do. We all have an innate propensity for this, in our curiosity about celebrities of this mundane world. That curiosity needs to be tuned into that sphere, of which this one is a perverted reflection, and rejoice in the purity of feelings and relationships therein. We need to make Radha and Krsna, Lailta and Subala our heroes and heroines and identify as their friends and servants, etc. That will be accomplished by reading about their lila, to begin with, deciding which way one wants to contribute, seeking help and guidance, and meditating- should meditation begin before lobha has arisen in the heart, Uttama prabhu? Is that "jumping the gun"? I am referring to meditation not just on the pastimes, but taking part in those pastimes.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Mar 5, 2013 1:45:18 GMT -5
Niscala...
Very good points. Regarding meditation, it's clear from the acaryas that meditation on asta-kaliya-lila is not a mechanical endeavor, and extended absorption in that lila is not possible in the earlier stages of practice - not until asakti at least.
In the beginning stages, it is more remembrance (smarana, dharana) than full meditation (dhyana, anusrmiti). Certainly one should contemplate one's desired service and participation while chanting the Holy Names, because they go hand in hand.
Lobha arises specifically in conjunction with knowing your desired rasa with conviction, along with your chosen mentor. Greed for one's relationship with Krsna in His lila. Until that clarity arises, lobha is not likely to be bestowed. But even if lobha is not there, you should still follow your spontaneous inclinations and pray for clarity and guidance.
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Post by niscala on Mar 5, 2013 18:24:52 GMT -5
Baba wrote: Are there genuine raganuga sadhus among Narayana M's group? Perhaps we be looking there? Perhaps we should go to the Tripurari Swami? Gaudiya Math? You Uttamsloka Prabhu?
One has to be perceptive, as such gurus may not be advertising themselves, nor be recognized by a group, nor by the GBC. They simply instruct and their instruction brings you closer to Krsna. They answer your questions with powerful logic, reason and conviction that instills faith and commitment. The other point is that Krsna sends a guru appropriate to our situation. Right now we are just looking at the raganuga path from the outside, wondering "could something so exalted possibly be for fallen old me?" So Krsna has sent us instruction accordingly, and it is very encouraging and brings us closer to Him. Looking at this forum, I see guru-disciple interactions all over. Its just not recognized as such- so its informal, but its happening. There are so many questions being asked, and Uttama is answering with sastra backing and powerful reasoning. We may feel uncomfortable recognizing him as a siksa guru, despite having our eyes opened. This is because of our herd mentality- we feel uncomfortable making decisions on our own, we want to be part of a group and make conclusions on the basis of group consensus, rather than what is going on inside us. We are on this forum to learn more and get guidance regarding raganuga bhakti in the very beginning or even pre-requisite stages. Insisting on a guru who is highly advanced in the process and tasting bhava is like kindergarten kids insisting they be taught by a professor.
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Post by prisnidd on Mar 17, 2013 1:38:26 GMT -5
By Krishna's mercy I met a previous iskcon devotee, a godsister of me (let's say that for this decription), someone I only met once or twice, and never really talked with before.
We became friends, and then she started to tell her story. And it was fantastic mesmerising. I was just sitting in awe and drinking in what had happened. I had never heard about such devotional stories in reality before. And the desire to be there, to see it, to be part of it grew within me. It grew to intense overwhelming desire. I will not tell any details to protect the persons involved, so you just have to imagine. There on the iskcon temple room floor things happened that sounded as taken from caitanya caritamrita.
Who was this devotee who used to be among us. It is no one you knew, she said that 'normal' devotees in the Mayapur temple did not know a thing. She might have walked past you, and you hade not looked twice after her.
Anyway, she woke up a taste within me an understanding, that I never had and did not know existed. How can this fantastic mercy have come upon me?
My only explanation is that one time in India I felt like tired of the material existence and prayed to every deity, to every possible desire tree in Mayapur and Vrindavana for pure love of Krishna. I was not even particularly Krishna conscious at that time, but my wish was sincere. Now Krishna had arranged a meeting for me with a 'rasik' devotee. And from that embryo of taste everything has slowly grown, if I watered it. That is my only explanation.
So while many are löooking for the greatest rasik guru to get siksa from, it might be one of the devotees you never knew and never looked twice at that can give it to you. So make friends with every devotee, serve them, and Krishna might send you that special devotee that awakens the lobha within you. But Krishna will not let you meet that devotee if you are not likely to treat that devotee with respect. Krishna protect his devotees.
Then I think it is spreading from devotee to devotee. When the mood among devotees is deep friendship instead of competition, patronizing and contempt, lobha will spread much easier. It is out there among the devotees, you just have to find it.
Everyone think about aparadha towards the great devotees, but how about aparadha towards the small devotees?
Can that devotee there give lobha? You don't know before you have made deep friendship with the devotee. The devotee I met actually had had persons asking her to be their guru, but she just laughed them in the face - me, guru, are you joking?
I was not looking for lobha, I was looking for friendship, and got so much more than I could have dreamt about.
And besides iskcon don't accept female gurus.
Now whwn I look at Krishna, or think about him, it is always tainted with the mood of my relationship with him. Like I have tinted glasses. And I always desire Krishna in that way and constantly desirous of more. Is this lobha? I don't know, I don't know so much, but it is maddening. Every hare-krishna mantra has become filled with desire for deepening my relationship with Krishna.
But I know how it started, who ignited it, and if you ask me you have to get it from a devotee who already has it, and where it has matured enough.
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Post by prisnidd on Mar 17, 2013 2:20:58 GMT -5
Anyway I find this book fantastic, a very good summary of the subject matter. I have read quite some of these things before but could not get a clear picture of it before having read this book.
If you already have an intrest in raganuga bhakti, this book will tell you all you want to know before tackling the previous acarya litterature. It certainly cleared up all things I have been wondering about before.
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Post by niscala on Mar 20, 2013 3:25:33 GMT -5
Thanks so much Prsni prabhu for sharing your very valuable and instructive story. This is a message that many devotees seem to be unaware of- that the guru can come in any form and they never fit into a neat sterotype or mental conception. They are not created by rubberstamping or group proclamation/consensus. So all external considerations must be put aside. I very much like your conclusion that we should respect all devotees, because of that, and not think that aparadha is only to the "big" devotees and not the "small" ones. After all, this so-called "small" devotee that everyone was walking past, was a "big" devotee for you! What if, thinking she is not important, I offend her in some way, and she is so dear to Krsna, that she changed your heart and filled it with so much lobha? Since great devotees are like water, always seeking a low and insignificant position, then its likely we walk right past so many great devotees, not recognizing them. . It reminds me of the kid, at his bed. praying "Lord, if you are there, show me a sign" and immediately there is a brilliant flash in the sky, and the kid goes "Wow! Incredible!" then a few seconds later "I wonder when I will get a sign..." We have to be a little open, non-judgmental and perceptive about how and what form Krsna sends His mercy.
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