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Post by Dhamesvar Das on Sept 6, 2015 17:09:21 GMT -5
Hare Krishna,
please accept my obeisances. All glories to Shrila Prabhupada.
I am writing a paper comparing Shrila Prabhupada's presentation of Raganuga bhakti with that of Jiva G and VCT for school (Bhaktivedanta College). I notice that in Bhaktirasamrta-Sindhu 1.2.291-293 that Shrila Prabhupada focuses on the necessity of practicing vaidhi-bhakti until "there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character." The verses themselves do not mention this, and Jiva G and VCT do not either. Is this because Shrila Prabhupada came after the time of sahajiya distortions of raganuga bhakti, whereas Jiva G and VCT did not see that? Or is there some other reason?
I assume that Shrila Prabhupada means nistha since anarthas are not absolutely destroyed until prema and raganuga-sadhana-bhakti is must be practiced before then to be sadhana bhakti, as opposed to sadhya bhakti. However, His Divine Grace is not so specific. He says, "In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivṛtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaśodā or the gopīs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value."
Shrila Prabhupada here is protecting the pure path of raganuga-sadhana from perversion by impure aspirants. But why doen't the text itself, nor previous commentators mention that one must have nistha? In fact, seemingly contrarily, Jiva G writes, "That means that there is no specific rule concerning the time at which they will give up dependence on the rules of scripture." This seems to imply that any stage from sraddha onward when greed arises that one may begin practicing raganuga-sadhana.
Perhaps it is something like Bhaktisiddhanta Saravasti Thakur simplifying siddha-pranali to contemplation of 'trnad api sunicena', even though his father Bhaktivinod Thakur embraced the siddha-pranali process.
Any thoughts on the historical or philosophical reasons for our Shrila Prabhupada raising the bar?
yours in service,
Dhamesvar Das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 6, 2015 19:25:08 GMT -5
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in his purports to Caitanya-caritamrita that an acarya makes necessary adjustments to his presentation of Lord Caitanya's teachings based on time and circumstance and audience, and that is precisely what Srila Prabhupada did regarding this particular topic. His immediate audience was his growing group of young neophyte disciples who had no background whatsoever in any Vedic knowledge, what to speak the teachings of Lord Caitanya. And certainly the example of the prakrita sahajiyas in India was a clear indication of how easily this knowledge could be misunderstood and distorted in a variety of unwanted ways. Here are those excerpts:
As an ideal ācārya, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu devised ways to capture all kinds of atheists and materialists. Every ācārya has a specific means of propagating his spiritual movement with the aim of bringing men to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore, the method of one ācārya may be different from that of another, but the ultimate goal is never neglected. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī recommends:
An ācārya should devise a means by which people may somehow or other come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First they should become Kṛṣṇa conscious, and all the prescribed rules and regulations may later gradually be introduced. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement we follow this policy of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
For example, since boys and girls in the Western countries freely intermingle, special concessions regarding their customs and habits are necessary to bring them to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ācārya must devise a means to bring them to devotional service. Therefore, although I am a sannyāsī, I sometimes take part in getting boys and girls married, although, in the history of sannyāsa, no sannyāsī has personally taken part in marrying his disciples. CC, 1.7.37, Purport
To broadcast the cult of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, one has to learn the possibility of renunciation in terms of country, time and candidate. A candidate for Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries should be taught about the renunciation of material existence, but one would teach candidates from a country like India in a different way.
The teacher (ācārya) has to consider time, candidate and country. He must avoid the principle of niyamāgraha – that is, he should not try to perform the impossible. What is possible in one country may not be possible in another. The ācārya’s duty is to accept the essence of devotional service. There may be a little change here and there as far as yukta-vairāgya (proper renunciation) is concerned.
…It is not necessary that the rules and regulations followed in India be exactly the same as those in Europe, America and other Western countries. Simply imitating without effect is called niyamāgraha. CC, 2.23.105, Purport
Yes, Srila Prabhupada was indicating the stage of nistha. As you noted, raganuga-bhakti is sadhana, ie: practice, and not a perfectional stage. It is the very means to attain prema-bhakti. Srila Prabhupada is clearly stressing sincerity, honesty, and a genuine desire, versus any sort of cheap imitation. Here are a few excerpts from Srila Prabhupada's lectures where he explains the stage of nistha:
"If all the unwanted things are vanquished, then you'll have firm faith. Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... Naṣṭa [SB 1.2.18]. Not that I am completely free from all sinful activities, but prāyeṣu, say, fifty percent, sixty percent is gone. At that time, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... How it has come to take place? Nityam bhāgavata-sevayā."
"So nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. Not all cleansed, but praya, say, seventy-five percent cleansed. At that time, you become fixed-up in devotional service, naisthiki. There are different stages of devotional service. That I have explained several times. First of all, sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivrttih syat."
"When anartha-nivrttih syat, all unwanted things are finished, at that time, nistha, firm faith. So bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki. So, so long there are dirty things, our faith and devotion in Krsna is not very fixed up, sometimes we deviate, we go away. But then nasta-prayesu, when seventy-five percent of the dirty things are cleansed, then our faith in God becomes fixed up. Bhagavaty uttama-sloke."
Agreed.
The appearance of greed - lobha - means that there has been an awakening of one's desired relationship with Krsna, because you have to be greedy for something specific. Then one must determine which Vraja-vasi best exemplifies that type of relationship and raga - attachment - and follow (anuga) them. That awakening may have happened in a previous life and it may surface even before one meets a suitable guru. However, the practical reality is this. If one is still struggling with major anarthas and has not yet attained steadiness in their sadhana, it is not very likely that they will have the necessary determination to pursue raganuga-bhakti in earnest. Logically, one would first have to use that impetus to attain steadiness - nistha - in their sadhana, so that they can practice raganuga-bhakti with the necessary determination, and not be distracted by anarthas that could taint their progress. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains how greed appears in Raga-vartma-candrika:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
The siddha-pranali that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada objected to was when an unqualified guru 'gives' the details of one's ekadasa-bhavas to unqualified disciples. Even Bhaktivinoda Thakura doesn't explain it exactly like that in his books. He describes a collaborative process, where the guru examines the disciple and works out these details according to the disciple's natural inclinations. The guru doesn't know the individual details of each disciple since they are unfolding. The guru teaches the disciple the theory and practices and guides him/her according to the disciple's desires. Here are some excerpts from Bhaktivinoda Thakura's, Harinama-cintamani:
If one’s preferences differ, the guru will make changes. If on the other hand the disciple does not like it, he should openly tell his spiritual master what he would prefer. The guru will consider the matter and give him another identity, and if the disciple likes it, also reveal his own. HC, 15.72-73
In Harināma-cintāmaṇi, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in his commentary in Chapter 15:
When the spiritual master is ascertaining the aspirant’s pure personal inclinations, the aspirant should also help the spiritual master by speaking his mind about his own preferences. As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless.
The inclinations that have been shaped by one’s meritorious deeds, through both this and previous lives, are called ruci or taste. This particular inclination, however, is integral to the soul. Should a person not have a natural inclination for śṛṅgāra-rasa, (mādhurya-rasa) but for servitude or friendship, then he should be instructed accordingly; if not, there will be undesirable consequences.
It is widely known in Gauḍīya tradition that the great devotee Śyāmānanda was at first unaware of his personal siddha ruci or permanent devotional propensity. His guru thus advised him to take up sakhya-rasa, the mood of friendship.
Later, however, by the grace of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, Śyāmānanda recognized which kind of worship truly attracted him (mādhurya-rasa). Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s teaching is that every practitioner should be assessed according to both aptitude and qualifications. HNC, 15.73-74
I firmly believe that Srila Prabhupada made these adjustments to make sure his disciples did not prematurely venture into areas before they were genuinely qualified. If one does not study these topics thoroughly and carefully in the books of the previous acaryas, and ideally under the guidance of a devotee engaged in raganuga-bhakti, there is the possibility of misunderstanding the qualifications and the application of the process. Finally, here is a letter from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to a disciple explaining his perspective on these things:
Best of virtuous women,
I became aware of the news through your letter dated the 28th that you went to Vṛndāvana and, from the Vaiṣṇavas there, heard about meditating upon the aṣṭakalīya-līlā (divine eightfold daily pastimes) of Their Lordships Śrī Śrī Rādhā Kṛṣṇa. While there can be no doubt about the fact that this topic is highly venerated, those who conceive of this subject matter while their consciousness is riddled with anarthas do not conceive what it truly is.
All those esoteric truths that are revealed solely through one’s advancing practice of chanting the holy names are to be considered the introduction to one’s svarūpa, one’s true spiritual identity. When one becomes free from anarthas, or the unwanted desires of the heart, one’s svarūpa manifests. When one’s svarūpa awakens, one’s perception is automatically admitted into eternal subject matters.
This is not something that can be deceitfully taught to or determined for someone else. In contrast, the revelations one has while submerged in chanting the holy names with a sincere heart should be humbly presented to sādhu and guru so that one’s conception may be refined and approved. This is the genuine process for receiving the eleven aspects of one’s eternal spiritual identity, or svarūpa.
In many places, undiscriminating gurus artificially impose these “revelations” on unqualified sādhakas. This process cannot be considered a true depiction of svarūpa-siddhi. Those who attain svarūpa-siddhi, or realization of their eternal spiritual form and identity, come to realize their eternal identity of their own accord (svataḥ-siddha); śrī gurudeva merely assists them in making progress in realizing these topics on the path of bhajana.
I have nothing more to say on this subject. While the sādhaka progresses on the path of perfection, his heart becomes disposed toward service and free from duplicity. All these subjects naturally manifest in such a heart.
With eternal blessings,
Śrī Siddhānta Sarasvatī
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 6, 2015 20:37:58 GMT -5
One more thing. Srila Prabhupada made it clear that an acarya can change details, but not the actual tattvas and siddhantas, or processes. Those are given by the previous acaryas and especially the purva acaryas, ie: Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, etc. They are all fully in agreement regarding the qualifications and the processes involved in raganuga-bhakti. So we have to analyze Srila Prabhupada's presentation in that context to understand it properly. Then we can understand when he was making temporary adjustments due to time and circumstance and audience.
Here is a reference from Śrīla Prabhupāda’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya, which is clearly in sync with the previous acaryas:
The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore, to think oneself a direct associate of the Supreme Lord is condemned (ahaṅgrahopāsana). According to authorized Vaiṣṇava principles, one should follow a particular devotee and not think of himself as Kṛṣṇa’s associate.
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world.
One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārānī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
By adopting this emotional mood of following in the footsteps of the gopīs, one attains his siddha-deha. This word indicates the pure spiritual body, which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. The siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his perfectly pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination.
As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred to another material body. Similarly, one who at the time of death is situated in his pure spiritual identity thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord and is transferred to the spiritual kingdom, to enter into the association of Kṛṣṇa.
In other words, the qualification for being transferred to the spiritual kingdom at the time of death is to think, in one’s spiritual identity, of Kṛṣṇa and His associates. No one can contemplate the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha-deha).
Thus Rāmānanda Rāya said that without attaining one’s siddha-deha one can neither become an associate of the damsels of Vraja nor render service directly to the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, and His eternal consort, Rādhārānī. In this regard, Rāmānanda quoted a nice verse from Śrīmad-bhagavatam (10.47.60):
“Neither the goddess of fortune, Laksmi, nor the damsels of the heavenly kingdom can attain the facilities of the damsels of Vrajabhumi – and what to speak of others?” TLC, page 318
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on Sept 7, 2015 14:09:37 GMT -5
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Post by Dhamesvar Das on Sept 8, 2015 12:25:23 GMT -5
Hare Krishna!
please accept my obeisances. All glories to Shrila Prabhupada.
Thank you kindly for the quick and in-depth response. It is easy to understand why Shrila Prabhupada raised the qualification for raganuga-sadhana-bhakti. Something more difficult (for me, at least ) to understand is why Shrila Prabhupada included the Dwarakavasis as exemplars to be followed on that path. Shrila Prabhupada, Jiva Goswami, and Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur all follow Rupa Goswami in eliminated the fear of Kamsa, as well as the envy of Shishupala from SB 7.1.30. However, where Jiva Goswami, and Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur interpret 'Vrsni' to indicate sambhanda-rupa-bhakti of the Vrajavasis, Shrila Prabhupada takes the phrase from its general meaning, and accepts both Vrajavasis and Dwarakavasis as examples to be followed by a raganuga-sadhaka. How is this?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 8, 2015 12:55:31 GMT -5
I think Srila Prabhupada was just being more broad in his presentation for the sake of the uninformed audiences outside of India. He indicated the wider range of possibilities, even though we, as Gaudiya Vaisnavas, are more focused on entering Vraja lila, per Lord Caitanya's teachings. As stated in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.303, if one worships Radha in madhurya-rasa with an element of aisvarya, one will attain the position of a queen in Dvaraka.
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Post by ulisesguerrero on Sept 8, 2015 18:55:51 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga!
From the quote you gave:
"All those esoteric truths that are revealed solely through one’s advancing practice of chanting the holy names are to be considered the introduction to one’s svarūpa, one’s true spiritual identity. When one becomes free from anarthas, or the unwanted desires of the heart, one’s svarūpa manifests. When one’s svarūpa awakens, one’s perception is automatically admitted into eternal subject matters."
It seems to me that this points to the process of "chanting and perfecting one's chanting" (rather than an engineering process as discussed before) in which the spiritual body is "revealed" by some extraordinary event. In other words the spiritual body comes descending, rather than ascending. Or, do you take the words "revealed" as simply clearing the heart and having a more objective/clear vision of the self?
With Love,
Ulises Guerrero
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 8, 2015 20:16:08 GMT -5
Good question. Here is the paragraph after the one you quoted: "This is not something that can be deceitfully taught to or determined for someone else. In contrast, the revelations one has while submerged in chanting the holy names with a sincere heart should be humbly presented to sādhu and guru so that one’s conception may be refined and approved. This is the genuine process for receiving the eleven aspects of one’s eternal spiritual identity, or svarūpa."
What Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati is talking about is still part of raganuga-bhakti sadhana, and not the perfection of the stage of bhava, ie: svarupa-siddhi. This is indicated in the statement, "so that one’s conception may be refined and approved". So the awakening Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati is talking about is the crystalizing of one's desires for a specific relationship with Krsna, ie: "one's conception", which must then be "refined and approved" as being acceptable, and not just imagination or a fleeting idea. I'm not sure what you mean by "an engineering process", but the details are refined and confirmed collaboratively with one's guru, so there is further development, and all the details may not awaken at once.
And it is neither descending nor ascending. It is an internal blossoming, so to speak. It comes from the heart of the individual jiva's will and desires. The jiva is already an eternal person and the core of his/her identity - svarupa. It is only the spiritual self-conception that needs to be developed or awakened. You can't attain prema without a relationship, and you can't interact in a relationship without a suitable identity, through which you express your desires and loving feelings - bhavas.
Since one's identity in Vraja lila with Krsna has never existed, there is nothing to "descend" per se, and it's not necessarily some "extraordinary event" either. It is the sadhaka's spiritual desires that are coming into focus because of the intensifying desires (greed) for a relationship, along with the purification due to anartha-nivritti, ie: unwanted distractions have been removed. And it's important to understand that it's not just about the 'spiritual body', it's about one's 'identity', which is more than just a body. It is your complete self-conception, ie: physical, mental, emotional, functional, etc.
The ekadasa-bhavas only have 4 attributes which relate to the physical nature of one's identity, and the rest have to do with one's relational connections and service, which are other important elements of one's identity. Even still, the ekadasa-bhavas are just the beginning template or foundational defining parameters. Further refinement continues during one's bhajana, all the way up to the stage bhava, where full realization takes place by the mercy of Krsna.
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Post by ulisesguerrero on Sept 9, 2015 20:38:45 GMT -5
Oh, ok. Got it! Not ascending and not descending! That was my confusion, for some reason I thought it would "fit" into one of the two! The "engineering process" I spoke about before was my way of referring to an ascending process, which is what I mainly understood from your book. But I'm glad to have cleared that up.
I've noticed that the translations of the lila-books are clouded with translation errors, plus the english language doesn't help either. It seems to me that in order to get into these stages of awakening there has to be an intense sadhana (bhajan kutir style). Chanting rounds all day and so on. Have you performed such, or are you planning to soon? Or do you think that such stages can be attained by prolonged steady practice (16 rounds, reg. principles, etc)?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 9, 2015 20:59:54 GMT -5
What I tried to convey in my book was that it is a collaborative process between the disciple and whichever guru is guiding them, ie: diksa or siksa. Here is a reference from Harinama-cintamani where Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains what I'm referring to:
If one’s preferences differ, the guru will make changes. If on the other hand the disciple does not like it, he should openly tell his spiritual master what he would prefer. The guru will consider the matter and give him another identity, and if the disciple likes it, also reveal his own. HC, 15.72-73
In Harināma-cintāmaṇi, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in his commentary in Chapter 15:
When the spiritual master is ascertaining the aspirant’s pure personal inclinations, the aspirant should also help the spiritual master by speaking his mind about his own preferences. As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the guru’s directions are not flawless.
The inclinations that have been shaped by one’s meritorious deeds, through both this and previous lives, are called ruci or taste. This particular inclination, however, is integral to the soul. Should a person not have a natural inclination for śṛṅgāra-rasa, (mādhurya-rasa) but for servitude or friendship, then he should be instructed accordingly; if not, there will be undesirable consequences.
It is widely known in Gauḍīya tradition that the great devotee Śyāmānanda was at first unaware of his personal siddha ruci or permanent devotional propensity. His guru thus advised him to take up sakhya-rasa, the mood of friendship.
Later, however, by the grace of Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, Śyāmānanda recognized which kind of worship truly attracted him (mādhurya-rasa). Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s teaching is that every practitioner should be assessed according to both aptitude and qualifications. HNC, 15.73-74
Undoubtedly there are likely some errors, but unless we are expert in Sanskrit and Bengali and have access to verified source texts, how will we know for sure?
Intense 24 hour bhajana is only possible at the stage of asakti, and attaining that stage is a gradual process from nistha to ruci to asakti. And included in that progressive path are the five stages of Smaranam-dasa, ie: smaranam, dharanam, dhyanam, anusmrti and samadhi. So we can't just jump to the higher stages right away. I am not at that stage either, so I haven't done that sort of immersive bhajana. I am slowly and gradually moving forward on the path.
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