Post by ishan on Jun 30, 2015 10:17:32 GMT -5
Discuss please? I would particularly like to see your opinions on the end of this quote, where Visvanatha explains that krsna-prema is nitya-siddha etc. Sometimes we need to spend time simply working out the ways in which the acaryas use words and expressions, and of course we mostly study the translations, and something is always lost in translation (I'm a professional translator, unfortunately not from Sanskrit.) Subtle concepts have a way of escaping our understanding, since after all, you do need some semblance of experience to relate to a concept. So let's dive in, shall we? I've been searching for a discussion topic for this forum for a long time... What are the conclusions of these quotes, in more simple words? I chose this quote because it is universal enough that we won't need extra context. Uttamasloka Prabhu, what do you think?
From Ujjvala-nilamani (14.31-32):
That which does not depend on external causes but appears on its own is called
svabhäva or nature. There are two types of svabhäva: nisarga and svarüpa.
Jiva:
If it gradually appears on its own, it is called svabhäva.
Visvanatha:
Among the causes of rati starting with abhiyoga is svabhäva. But as a cause it is like
comparing an object to itself (causelessness as a cause). Svabhäva indicates that rati in this
case has no cause. Since it is said there is no natural rati, a cause of rati is sought.
However, it will be explained later that causes like abhiyoga are not really causes. All types
of rati have no cause. That is the correct conclusion. The causes have been mentioned
only for conventions’ sake.
An impression created by firm practice is called nisarga. Hearing about the qualities
and form of the Lord are a slight cause for its appearance.
Jiva:
The general characteristic in relation to madhura-rati is given, since this rati reaches
perfection only after many births. That very firm practice of madhura-rati which appears
repeatedly with increased strength, and which, though disappearing for many lifetimes,
remains as a subtle impression to produce rati later on, is called nisarga. This is similar to
the good and bad karmas which remain dormant during deep sleep.
With the awakening and strengthening of madhura-rati which was situated in the state of
impressions, hearing about the qualities and form of Krsna become insignificant as the
cause of its arousal. It does not depend on external causes. Thus this does not contradict
the general definition of svabhäva.
Visvanatha:
“External causes of rati are qualities (sambandha), similar items (upamä) or dear objects of
the Lord (tadiya). Internal causes are hearing about the Lord and other processes. Though
rati is said to be without cause and not dependent, it depends on these internal causes.”
That is true. In the portion called nisarga there is some dependence on a semblance of
internal cause. Thus the verse says, “the cause of its arousal, the cause of nisarga, is
hearing about the Lord.”
The impression is created by firm practice, but it is actually nitya-siddha. The impressions
created by this practice are actually a continuous stream (not created). The impressions
bring about hearing of Krsna’s form and qualities by means of the lila-sakti. Thus it is
caused in name only. Therefore the word manag (slight) is added.
From Ujjvala-nilamani (14.31-32):
That which does not depend on external causes but appears on its own is called
svabhäva or nature. There are two types of svabhäva: nisarga and svarüpa.
Jiva:
If it gradually appears on its own, it is called svabhäva.
Visvanatha:
Among the causes of rati starting with abhiyoga is svabhäva. But as a cause it is like
comparing an object to itself (causelessness as a cause). Svabhäva indicates that rati in this
case has no cause. Since it is said there is no natural rati, a cause of rati is sought.
However, it will be explained later that causes like abhiyoga are not really causes. All types
of rati have no cause. That is the correct conclusion. The causes have been mentioned
only for conventions’ sake.
An impression created by firm practice is called nisarga. Hearing about the qualities
and form of the Lord are a slight cause for its appearance.
Jiva:
The general characteristic in relation to madhura-rati is given, since this rati reaches
perfection only after many births. That very firm practice of madhura-rati which appears
repeatedly with increased strength, and which, though disappearing for many lifetimes,
remains as a subtle impression to produce rati later on, is called nisarga. This is similar to
the good and bad karmas which remain dormant during deep sleep.
With the awakening and strengthening of madhura-rati which was situated in the state of
impressions, hearing about the qualities and form of Krsna become insignificant as the
cause of its arousal. It does not depend on external causes. Thus this does not contradict
the general definition of svabhäva.
Visvanatha:
“External causes of rati are qualities (sambandha), similar items (upamä) or dear objects of
the Lord (tadiya). Internal causes are hearing about the Lord and other processes. Though
rati is said to be without cause and not dependent, it depends on these internal causes.”
That is true. In the portion called nisarga there is some dependence on a semblance of
internal cause. Thus the verse says, “the cause of its arousal, the cause of nisarga, is
hearing about the Lord.”
The impression is created by firm practice, but it is actually nitya-siddha. The impressions
created by this practice are actually a continuous stream (not created). The impressions
bring about hearing of Krsna’s form and qualities by means of the lila-sakti. Thus it is
caused in name only. Therefore the word manag (slight) is added.
