vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on Jun 7, 2015 0:02:20 GMT -5
How much of our personality in this life transfers over to our eternal character in Bhauma lila?. It seems if we do achieve Krishna prema in this life that our present personality has something to do with our getting there, our emotions, our decisions to choose a particular form, our attraction to follow a particular vrajavasi, male or female etc.. It seems with the psychological effects others have on us in this lifetime, sometimes spiritually detrimental, it could have a big impact on how we see our selves, even while trying hard to consistently contemplate on our siddha deha. Many would welcome a total personality change for that reason alone! This is why our associations are so important for our own spiritual well-being. So do our personalities we have now entirely change, and a whole brand new set of characteristics appear in the next life through the process of Raganuga? Can there be a complete morphing of everything about us by serious meditation on our siddha deha, even while being somewhat still entangled in this material body? If Krsna prema is attained in this life does our personality which we've evolved into (for milleniums) carry over into our birth in Krishna's bhauma lila or is it a totally new persona without any trace of our previous personality? (sort of the same question written in different ways  |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 7, 2015 19:15:55 GMT -5
Very good and thought-provoking questions. I’ve thought about this before too and my wife and I have discussed it many times. She made an interesting point when saying that since we are very close to becoming fully realized our spiritual nature is shining forth more and more so to speak as anarthas are cleared away.
Here are some other considerations. We read the lila while we are still conditioned so our desires are certainly not fully spiritual or pure so to speak. Nonetheless, we are instructed by the acaryas to follow our naturally arising desires and inclinations as they awaken in the context of our attraction to being in the lila. This indicates that although our desires are not completely pure, they are still valid when directed towards Krsna and His lila and our desired relationship with Him there.
The capacity for desire is an inherent aspect of the jiva’s svarupa so it is a spiritual characteristic. It is only the objects of desire that are either material or spiritual - pure or impure. So it’s not exactly that we have “material desires” - we have desires for material things. So when we focus our desires on Krsna, His lila and our relationship with him, it is the proper use of that inherent faculty and it aligns us with that eternal spiritual reality. That alignment contributes to our spiritual awakening because we are properly situated constitutionally speaking. We’re on the right track - we’re “in the zone”.
Our personalities and qualities in this life were shaped by karma from previous lifetimes along with the desires that have carried over from that past. But to get to this point on the path of bhakti it is understood that we have been accumulating many lifetimes of impressions (samskaras) in relation to Krsna’s lila and our participation in it. So these things have been shaping up for a long time and are gradually coming into focus now, which means it isn’t solely related to, or dependent on, our current personalities and material inclinations, although it may appear to be that way from our limited frame of reference.
We can only start with what we have so we dovetail it all towards Krsna and gradually it becomes purified of unwanted elements. Raganuga gives us a new focal point, ie: our siddha-deha - our new identity. The ekadasa-bhavas are the elemental defining parameters, or starting point - the framework or template. We meditate on these aspects (bhavas) with a desire to manifest ourselves in that new context or identity.
We read about the Vraja-vasis to learn about their personalities, qualities and modes of interaction so we have a frame of reference for understanding pure spiritual identities and moods that are suitable for participation in the lila. All of the core relationships in Vraja lila, and their unlimited variations, already exist, so we don’t have to make up anything new. We simply follow a pre-existing archetype based on our attraction to their type of raga/attachment, bhavas, seva, etc, but we make it our own unique variation because we are unique individual personalities. And that’s exactly what Krsna wants - our unique expression of love for Him in our chosen type of relationship.
The sadhana and bhajana of raganuga is the time we spend bringing our new identity to life so to speak, by infusing it with our desires and vital energy and consciousness, following the examples we have read. It is a gradual transformation and shift from our material identity to our spiritual identity, and although it is fundamentally a scientifically based process, it is really a matter of the heart and emotions and is being guided by Krsna and our group leader (and Radha for those in madhurya) - all with the on-going blessings of our guru(s).
Asakti is the stage of deep attachment to Krsna in the full context of our new relationship and identity, so by that point, our new identity has become more manifest because we have spent so much time desiring ourselves into it and giving it life by our intense focus. That intense focus and attachment are what attracts Krsna, and when He is ready, He awards us bhava and fulfills those long-cherished desires.
If you think about it, there are two transformations, ie: during raganuga-sadhana as I just described, and then when we take birth in bhauma-lila, where we become part of a new family and community and grow up with the Vraja-vasis in our new identity with no remembrance of our past material life and identity. That final birth is where we attain our full self-conception (abhimana) and develop all of the necessary attributes to perfect our prema and relationship with Krsna in the association of the nitya-siddhas. That self-conception stays with us after bhauma-lila when we enter the eternal aprakata-lila.
Here are some relevant references from VCT’s MK:
The devotee’s innumerable thoughts and emotions were previously bound tightly by the ropes of attachment to family, relatives, house and properties. However, when prema appears, it easily frees the thoughts from all those attachments. By its inherent power, prema transforms those material emotions, into spiritually blissful elements, as if submerging them all in a deep well of transforming nectar (rasa).
Similarly, all the attachments become spiritualized. Then, with those ropes of spiritual attachment, prema binds the spiritualized emotions to the sweetness of the Lord’s name, form and qualities. MK, 8.1
Viśvanātha Cakravartī eloquently summarizes the entire sequence of progressive development on this path, by showing how at each stage, the transformation and manifestation of your spiritual identity gradually increases, while simultaneously, the material conditioning and false identity decreases correspondingly:
Ahankara (false ego) is of two types:
(1) consciousness of I – ahanta
(2) consciousness of mine – mamatā
By jñāna these two are destroyed and liberation is attained. By directing these two towards the body (I am this body), a house (this is my house), and so on, bondage results.
I am a follower of the Lord. I am the servant of the Lord. The Lord with His associates, an ocean of sweetness with His form, qualities and pastimes, is to be served by me. If one thinks in this way, identifying oneself as the Lord’s servant and making the Lord along with His associates the object of one’s possession, it is called prema. Prema is in this way distinct from both bondage and liberation, and is properly called the crown jewel of all human goals.
There is a sequence in this…
When the materialistic aspect of ahanta and mamatā is extremely deep, one remains fixed in the cycle of birth and death.
When by good fortune, a particle of faith is born (śraddhā) and one thinks of becoming a Vaiṣṇava and serving the Lord, the materialistic aspect becomes slightly spiritualized (gandha) and the jīva becomes qualified for devotional service (bhakti).
At the stage of sādhu saṅga, the spiritualization becomes more condensed and his material attachments are ātyantikī (thorough).
At the stage of unsteady bhajana-kriyā (sādhana-bhakti), the spiritualization of I and mine is specific, localized in one place, whereas the material aspect is still in full force (pūrna).
At the stage of niṣṭhā, spiritualization becomes detectable in many places, and the materialistic influence is still prominent (prāyikī).
At the stage of ruci, spiritualization of I and mine becomes dominant, nearing completion (prāyikī) and the materialistic concept of I and mine becomes localized in certain issues.
At the stage of āsakti, the spiritual aspect of I and mine becomes complete (pūrna) and the material aspect becomes a trace (gandha).
At the stage of bhāva, the spiritual aspect becomes thorough (ātyantikī) and the material aspect becomes like an empty shadow.
At the stage of prema, the spiritual aspect becomes extremely intense (param-ātyantikī) and the material aspect is completely absent. MK, 8.12
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on Jun 9, 2015 0:23:49 GMT -5
> " At the stage of sādhu saṅga, the spiritualization becomes more condensed and his material attachments are ātyantikī (thorough)."
Is this a typo? shouldn't it be "spiritual" attachments (or aspects) become atyantiki? Or does it mean a stage when we are getting sadhu sanga, but we are still "thoroughly" overwhelmed by material desires?
Because some line later it says : At the stage of bhāva, the spiritual aspect becomes thorough (ātyantikī) and the material aspect becomes like an empty shadow.
Thank you Uttamasloka ji, your understanding of this "personality change" is very enlivening to read, and makes sense. And along with the quotes that substantiate the stages as a necessary cleansing and awakening to who we really want to be, the confusions of this "true identity search" are erased.
I have seen too many so-called "self-realization" organizations that try to destroy the individual's desires and even personality, just based on their teachings that it's all illusion. But they stop there and don't teach their followers how to dovetail and purify their personalities and desires, as you explained: "to follow our naturally arising desires and inclinations as they awaken in the context of our attraction to being in the lila".
No one, besides those fortunate Vaishnavas who understand their acharya's writings and the goal, can ever get beyond all the confusing new age banality that eventually leaves the poor souls dry and void.
This mayavadi influence is everywhere. And it can float on over like GMO grains in the breeze right into the fields of Vaishnava groups.
Self-realization for each individual is actually shoved in the background in order to promote an impersonal, so-called spiritual cultural facade, that leaves the individuality aspect disparaged. The essence of our acharya's teachings will be lost to a new elitist papality, and the congregations will not be allowed to learn anything beyond varnashram dharma. This is the danger.
TLC 17 Lord Caitanya, the Original Personality of Godhead
"... When shall I be eager to accept the six Gosvamis as my prime guidance? And when will I be able to understand the conjugal love of Krsna?" No one should be eager to understand the conjugal love of Krsna without undergoing disciplinary training under the six Gosvamis of Vrndavana."
How can we do that? They are not physically present! simple... sravanam kirtanam, listen and repeat, listen to those who have that knowledge, study their writings and know.
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Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 9, 2015 8:02:02 GMT -5
Is it not a wonder that an institution causes the dampening of the spirit of pure devotion? ORGANIZED RELIGION by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta: Putana [the demoness who tried to kill Krishna] is the slayer of all infants. The baby, when he or she comes out of the mother's womb, falls at once into the hands of the pseudo-teachers of religion. These teachers are successful in forestalling the attempts of the good preceptor whose help is never sought by the atheists of this world at the baptism of their babies. This is ensured by the arrangements of all established churches of the world. They have been successful only in supplying watchful Putanas for effecting the spiritual destruction of persons from the moment of their birth with cooperation of their worldly parents. No human contrivance can prevent these Putanas from obtaining possession of their pulpits. This is due to the general prevalence of atheistic disposition in the people of this world.
The church that has the best chance of survival in this damned world is that of atheism under the convenient guise of theism. The churches have always proved the staunchest upholders of the grossest form of worldliness from which even the worst of non-ecclesiastical criminals are found to recoil.
It is not from any deliberate opposition to the ordained clergy that these observations are made. The original purpose of the established churches of the world may not always be objectionable. But no stable religious arrangement for instructing the masses has yet been successful. The Supreme Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in pursuance of the teachings of the scriptures enjoins all absence of conventionalism for the teachers of the eternal religion. It does not follow that the mechanical adoption of the unconventional life by any person will make him a fit teacher of religion. Regulation is necessary for controlling the inherent worldliness of conditioned souls.
But no mechanical regulation has any value, even for such a purpose. The bona-fide teacher of religion is neither any product of, nor the favourer of, any mechanical system. In his hands no system has likewise the chance of denigrating into a lifeless arrangement. The mere pursuit of fixed doctrines and fixed liturgies cannot hold a person to the true spirit of doctrine or liturgy.
The idea of an organized church in an intelligible form, indeed, marks the close of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiastical establishments are the dikes and dams to retain the current that cannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate a desire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement for their own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of the absolute and unconventional guidance of the bona-fide spiritual teacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems, they have no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neither can there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation of the life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale.
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