My responses to Romapada Swami's Dandavat's article
May 29, 2015 23:40:27 GMT -5
vishnudas, ishan, and 2 more like this
Post by Uttamasloka on May 29, 2015 23:40:27 GMT -5
On 5.17.15, Dandavats.com posted a Q&A with Romapada Swami, titled: Revelation of Siddha-svarupa. Here is that article...
www.dandavats.com/?p=321#comment-20185
I responded to Romapada Swami's (RPS) points on Dandavats, but I (US) wanted to post it here as well for further discussion.
RPS: “Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.”
US: This is absolutely not at all what the acaryas teach in their books. First of all, the guru does not ‘reveal’ one’s relationship with Krsna, and second, it happens ‘before’ the liberated platform, otherwise, one could not attain the liberated platform, ie: bhava and prema. And one does ‘not’ have to be completely free from the modes of nature either.
In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, First Wave, Chapter 2, Sadhana-bhakti, Rupa Gosvami states that there are two types of sadhana-bhakti, ie: vaidhi and raganuga. The qualifications he gives for raganuga are that one has awakened or realized the ‘type’ of relationship one desires with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and one has identified a particular nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi whose raga and bhava one aspires to follow (anuga). Along with these two elements the key criterion is that one has an intense desire to attain that relationship, ie: lobha - greed.
No mention is made in BRS or the commentaries, or in any other books of the acaryas, that one must first be liberated or freed from the modes of nature. That is completely illogical and rather absurd because it implies that one must first become liberated in order to ‘practice’ raganuga-sadhana so that one can then become liberated! None of the acaryas teach this.
When Srila Prabhupada said liberated in NOD he did not literally mean the liberated platform. He meant freed from the influence of major anarthas. This is confirmed by Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Madhurya-kadambini where he explains that anartha-nivritti continues all the way up to the stage of bhava.
According to Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti one’s desired relationship (rasa or rati) awakens over many lifetimes of impressions from sadhana and sadhu-sanga. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas.
RPS: “Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature.“
US: As quoted by Prahladadesh on Dandavats, Srila Prabhupada does not agree with this idea. Here he is asked specifically about a ‘neophyte’ devotee, who is obviously still engaged in sadhana:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
RPS: “The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)”
US: This is also incorrect siddhanta. Lobha or laulyam absolutely must arise while one is still practicing (sadhana) or one cannot attain bhava or prema. It is the very prerequisite for attaining perfection - prema. This is also explained in BRS in the chapter on sadhana-bhakti:
The qualification for rāgānugā-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy (lobha) for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in rāgātmikā-bhakti – is qualified for rāgānugā-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291
Viśvanātha Cakravartī elaborates on this verse after quoting it in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:
If one thinks, “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Kṛṣṇa of His associates, the gopīs in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments. If such impetuses are there (i.e., suitable sanctions or logical arguments), then it cannot be justly called greed.
This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether or not he is qualified for the path of rāgānugā-bhakti. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him. RVC, 1.5
In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains how greed/lobha arises:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
RPS: “You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail.”
US: Those details are readily available if one studies the books of the previous acaryas as Srila Prabhupada instructed us to do repeatedly in his books. And studying these books will also shed additional light onto Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.
RPS: “However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.”
US: Knowledge is ‘acquired’ by hearing and studying the books of the acaryas. Knowledge is not ‘revealed’. What is revealed are the deeper layers of understanding, or imports, of that acquired knowledge. That’s how it works. No one is going to have all of the detailed knowledge from BRS or any other book ‘revealed’ to them during japa.
I encourage all devotees to take the time to seriously study the major books of the previous acaryas to enhance their understanding of what Srila Prabhupada taught us in his books. By doing so, one can go deeper in their understanding and also become aware of the full details they have given us for our benefit, having been instructed personally by Lord Caitanya. Then all of these misconceptions will be eradicated and one will properly understand that actual process to attain Vraja prema.
www.dandavats.com/?p=321#comment-20185
I responded to Romapada Swami's (RPS) points on Dandavats, but I (US) wanted to post it here as well for further discussion.
RPS: “Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.”
US: This is absolutely not at all what the acaryas teach in their books. First of all, the guru does not ‘reveal’ one’s relationship with Krsna, and second, it happens ‘before’ the liberated platform, otherwise, one could not attain the liberated platform, ie: bhava and prema. And one does ‘not’ have to be completely free from the modes of nature either.
In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, First Wave, Chapter 2, Sadhana-bhakti, Rupa Gosvami states that there are two types of sadhana-bhakti, ie: vaidhi and raganuga. The qualifications he gives for raganuga are that one has awakened or realized the ‘type’ of relationship one desires with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and one has identified a particular nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi whose raga and bhava one aspires to follow (anuga). Along with these two elements the key criterion is that one has an intense desire to attain that relationship, ie: lobha - greed.
No mention is made in BRS or the commentaries, or in any other books of the acaryas, that one must first be liberated or freed from the modes of nature. That is completely illogical and rather absurd because it implies that one must first become liberated in order to ‘practice’ raganuga-sadhana so that one can then become liberated! None of the acaryas teach this.
When Srila Prabhupada said liberated in NOD he did not literally mean the liberated platform. He meant freed from the influence of major anarthas. This is confirmed by Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Madhurya-kadambini where he explains that anartha-nivritti continues all the way up to the stage of bhava.
According to Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti one’s desired relationship (rasa or rati) awakens over many lifetimes of impressions from sadhana and sadhu-sanga. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas.
RPS: “Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature.“
US: As quoted by Prahladadesh on Dandavats, Srila Prabhupada does not agree with this idea. Here he is asked specifically about a ‘neophyte’ devotee, who is obviously still engaged in sadhana:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
RPS: “The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)”
US: This is also incorrect siddhanta. Lobha or laulyam absolutely must arise while one is still practicing (sadhana) or one cannot attain bhava or prema. It is the very prerequisite for attaining perfection - prema. This is also explained in BRS in the chapter on sadhana-bhakti:
The qualification for rāgānugā-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy (lobha) for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in rāgātmikā-bhakti – is qualified for rāgānugā-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291
Viśvanātha Cakravartī elaborates on this verse after quoting it in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:
If one thinks, “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Kṛṣṇa of His associates, the gopīs in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments. If such impetuses are there (i.e., suitable sanctions or logical arguments), then it cannot be justly called greed.
This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether or not he is qualified for the path of rāgānugā-bhakti. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him. RVC, 1.5
In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains how greed/lobha arises:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
RPS: “You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail.”
US: Those details are readily available if one studies the books of the previous acaryas as Srila Prabhupada instructed us to do repeatedly in his books. And studying these books will also shed additional light onto Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.
RPS: “However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.”
US: Knowledge is ‘acquired’ by hearing and studying the books of the acaryas. Knowledge is not ‘revealed’. What is revealed are the deeper layers of understanding, or imports, of that acquired knowledge. That’s how it works. No one is going to have all of the detailed knowledge from BRS or any other book ‘revealed’ to them during japa.
I encourage all devotees to take the time to seriously study the major books of the previous acaryas to enhance their understanding of what Srila Prabhupada taught us in his books. By doing so, one can go deeper in their understanding and also become aware of the full details they have given us for our benefit, having been instructed personally by Lord Caitanya. Then all of these misconceptions will be eradicated and one will properly understand that actual process to attain Vraja prema.
