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Post by ulisesguerrero on Feb 24, 2015 20:01:51 GMT -5
Hare Kṛṣṇa Uttamasloka prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga!
In the last paragraph of Chapter 1:
"What is the purpose of trying to prove that Śrīla Prabhupāda said something so contradictory to
the previous ācāryas? Their numerous statements are clear and indisputable, and there is not
one single statement that supports the “fall from the līlā” side of this debate. To maintain and
promote that Śrīla Prabhupāda established this false concept is not loyalty to Śrīla Prabhupāda,
it is guru-aparādha because it is a serious distortion of his statements and Vaiṣṇava siddhānta. It
reveals a complete lack of understanding of this crucial philosophical subject. It should be
rejected by all of his disciples and followers.
!"
Does this mean that those who say that Śrīla Prabhupāda was preaching "the fall of the jiva" to "make it easy" are offenders to Śrīla Prabhupāda?
With Love,
Ulises Guerrero
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 25, 2015 0:01:42 GMT -5
Here are the key points to consider. First, Srila Prabhupada did not teach the fall idea in his books. In his books, SP was perfectly in sync with Krsna, sastra and the previous acaryas, ie: no one falls from the spiritual world. He spoke about the fall idea in a few private letters, some conversations and some lectures. There is a weighted hierarchy regarding SP's statements in these various contexts. If something he wrote in a letter or spoke in a conversation contradicts what is written in his books, his books always take precedence. SP's books are his legacy - not his letters, conversations or lectures. They are all certainly valid, but when there is an apparent contradiction, we must give priority to what is written in his books and what is in sync with the previous acaryas, whom he said he would never contradict. We should be teaching what he wrote in his books and not twist his books to make them fit his private statements. The fact that SP did say these contradictory things privately, "to make it easy", as you put it, does not mean that his disciples or followers are duty bound to follow that same approach forever. Every generation of Vaisnavas who are teaching must make necessary adjustments when presenting Gaudiya philosophy according to the specific time, place, circumstances and audience. As a result of these conflicting statements the situation today is full of many strange and confusing ideas, all being spread in the name of SP's teachings, when in fact they are mostly blatant apasiddhanta. Here are two of the most egregious examples, which are actual articles on Dandavats.com: We are all nitya-siddhas living now in Goloka, but we are asleep there and dreaming that we are in the material world! When we become liberated, we will simply 'wake up' and resume our position in the lila. This has been called, "we didn't fall, we just fell asleep"!  Another article states that "We fell from the rasa-lila"! I'm not kidding! In the article the author states that of course nitya-siddhas never fall from the rasa-lila, but fools and rascals who are envious of Krsna can and do fall!!!! This is such blatant ignorance on so many levels that it boggles the mind and of course, disturbs the heart of anyone who knows the truth. Uddhava stated in SB that there is no love in all existence that is higher than the gopis' prema for Krsna, yet this author somehow thinks that "fools and rascals" can enter the rasa-lila - the most exalted pastime - and become envious of Krsna! SP never taught these ideas. These are distorted extrapolations of his private statements by devotees, who are no doubt sincere, but are so confused it is shocking. Do we really want people to think that this is what SP taught? I find that intolerable, especially in light of what he actually taught throughout his books. That is the core issue - the main problem. It hasn't made things easier. It has made things more complicated and problematic because of the misunderstandings that are being touted as SP's teachings. I honestly don't think that SP anticipated that his statements would be so misunderstood as they have been, since, in his books, he presented the truth in accordance with Krsna, sastra and the acaryas. To answer your specific question, if someone doesn't understand the actual truth and has been taught by others that we fell, then they are not being offensive. But if devotees are confronted with the overwhelming evidence to the contrary that has been presented by many devotees who do understand the truth, and they still hang on to this mistaken notion, then they are in a precarious position. To ignore Krsna's many direct statements, a mountain of sastric evidence, and the previous acaryas' teachings is a very risky position to take. |
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Post by ulisesguerrero on Feb 25, 2015 20:08:53 GMT -5
Thank you. Its clear now.
To me its even worse when I hear from Nayarana maharaj disciples that Śrīla Prabhupāda "only gave the basics of spiritual life"... and that "he was preaching the fall of the jiva to people because that was his *unique* style". I've heard many attempts to diminish what Śrīla Prabhupāda did, and to make Narayan maharaj bigger than him, as if it was some sort of competition. Offenses to the pure devotees are indeed very dangerous!
Hare Kṛṣṇa!
Ulises
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 25, 2015 22:53:14 GMT -5
Yes, it's a fact that many followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja say things like that, and I agree that it is very offensive, foolish and wrong. This is a symptom of kanistha level devotees, but even some who are madhyamas say things like this, so it has become a big problem. I can guarantee you that they never get away with saying such nonsense when I'm around. I don't blame SNM for this, because it's mostly his followers who have not properly understood what he was trying to convey.
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Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 10, 2015 10:35:30 GMT -5
JIVA TATTVA
The Truth About the Origin and Subsequent Fall into the Material World of the Spirit Soul
Srila Prabhupada stated in his books many times that no one falls from the eternal abode of the lord:
It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)
After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)
This teaching on jiva-tattva is completely coherent with other modern gaudiya acaryas like Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnan Keshava Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Goswami Maharaja, Srila Narayana Maharaja and Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja who give the explanation that in the spiritual world the material energy (maya-devi) can have no influence.
Interestingly Srila Prabhupada also made statements in letters and conversations like:
Devotee: If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? ...
Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)
It appears here as if Srila Prabhupada contradicts his own teachings as presented in his books, anyhow this can be easily reconciled, if we understand that our acaryas have sometimes seemingly contradict or simplify the actual siddhanta for preaching purposes. For example:
Prabhupada: (chants mangalacarana prayers) Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this great movement. This movement is not started by me. This was started long, long years ago by Krsna Himself. Firstly, He spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god . . . We have come from the spiritual world in this material world. We have forgotten our father. So we have to revive this relationship with our father, or God, or Krsna. That is the main business of human life . . . We have come from God; we again go back to God if we simply understand Krsna, or God. This is the whole instruction of the Bhagavad-gita.
(City Hall Lecture: 751007LE.DUR)
Srila Prabhupada is obviously preaching many times to people who have hardly any understanding of the genuine vaishnava siddhanta, for them he is often presenting topics in a simplified manner.
We can read elsewhere in a presentation made by gaudiya vaishnavas:
In a 1971 conversation with Revatinandana, Srila Prabhupada said,
"These questions are not to be discussed in public. They require a much higher understanding. For the public it should be, 'This is matter, this is spirit.' That's all."
This is an example of a preaching technique by Srila Prabhupada. A well known example of preaching something other than siddhanta is that of Jiva Goswami's advocation of svakiya-rasa over parakiya-rasa for the spiritual benefit of his disciples, while simultaneously always following Rupa Goswami internally. Srila Prabhupada writes,
He could understand that sahajiyas would otherwise exploit the parakiya-rasa, as they are actually doing at the present. [Cc. Adi-lila 10.85, purport]
Srila Jiva Goswami wrote his commentaries so as to pacify his contemporaries and also present the siddhanta indirectly. In the Locana Rocini Tika on Ujjvala Nilamani 1.18, he writes:
Some things I have written here by my own will, and some due to the will of others. The part which is coherent is by my will, and the rest is due to others.
"It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha."
(Bhag. 7.1.35, purp. by Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada)
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