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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 6:54:17 GMT -5
Hare Krsna prabhu,
In your book you highlight some statements from the previous acaryas that one need not wait until one is liberated before hearing confidential lila. For example (p. 102):
Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary on the above verse in Srimad-bhagavatam (10.33.39):
One who continuously hears, glorifies or writes poetry about this autumnal rasa lila and similar pastimes of Krsna described by other poets, first of all, even if he has the heart disease of material lust, he becomes imbued with prema. Then, by it’s effect, the disease of the heart is destroyed. Thus, it is understood here that this prema is independent; it is not weak or dependent like jnana-yoga.
In this regard, how are we to understand statements like the following from Srila Prabhupada?
"When one is liberated and hears of Lord Krishna's and Radha's loving affairs, he is not inclined to have lusty desires. One mundane rogue once said that when the Vaisnavas chant the name 'Radha, Radha', he simply remembers a barber's wife named Radha. This is a practical example. Unless one is liberated, he should not try to hear about the loving affairs between Radha and Krishna. If one is not liberated and listens to a relation of the rasa dance, he may remember his mundane activities and illicit connections with some woman whose name may also be Radha. In the conditioned stage one should not even try to remember such things. By practising the regulative principles, one should rise to the platform of spontaneous attraction for Krishna. Then and only then, should one hear about the Radha Krishna lila. Although these affairs may be very pleasing to both the conditioned and the liberated souls, the conditioned soul should not try to hear them". (Caitanya-Caritamrita, Madhya 8.255, purport)
Prabhu, this question is not put to you in a challenging manner, but to seek genuine clarification.
Thanks.
Your servant,
Vraja das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2015 11:07:54 GMT -5
Vraja: Very good question and very important for everyone to understand properly. In chapter 4 of my book I have a section: What are the criteria for being a pure devotee?: raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/thread/52/book-excerpt-criteria-pure-devoteeSrila Prabhupada used the terms, "pure devotee" and "liberated" in very broad ways. That is the key to understanding his statement correctly, ie: what exactly did SP mean by 'liberated' in this particular statement about rasa-lila? Let's start by analyzing that. There are three phases on the path of bhakti, ie: sadhana-bhakti, bhava-bhakti and prema-bhakti. Technically speaking, bhava-bhakti is the stage of spiritual liberation, ie: svarupa-siddhi, where one attains one's spiritual desires (cultivated during sadhana-bhakti) for a particular relationship with Krsna in Vraja. As you will read in the section linked above, even at the stage of bhava one could still fall due to aparadha. Bhava is the seed of prema and once bhava crystalizes into prema, one is safe from falling, freed from all anarthas and is fully liberated. A key part of sadhana-bhakti is sravanam - hearing the philosophy and the lila of Krsna. Along with chanting, it is the most essential part of our practice, without which, we cannot attain bhava/prema - liberation. It makes no sense whatsoever to think that we must first attain bhava/prema before we can hear rasa-lila, since hearing the lila is one of the most important means of attaining bhava/prema. Therefore, when SP says one must be liberated he doesn't mean that one must be at the stage of bhava or prema before hearing rasa-lila. He means one must have undergone significant anartha-nivritti to the point of being freed from the influences of major anarthas, ie: being 'liberated' from their influence and being focused on one's spiritual goals as the main priority in life. Here are some excerpts from SP's SB lectures where he discusses this: If all the unwanted things are vanquished, then you'll have firm faith. Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... Naṣṭa [SB 1.2.18]. Not that I am completely free from all sinful activities, but prāyeṣu, say, fifty percent, sixty percent is gone. At that time, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... How it has come to take place? Nityam bhāgavata-sevayā. So nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. Not all cleansed, but praya, say, seventy-five percent cleansed. At that time, you become fixed-up in devotional service, naisthiki. There are different stages of devotional service. That I have explained several times. First of all, sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivrttih syat. When anartha-nivrttih syat, all unwanted things are finished, at that time, nistha, firm faith. So bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki. So, so long there are dirty things, our faith and devotion in Krsna is not very fixed up, sometimes we deviate, we go away. But then nasta-prayesu, when seventy-five percent of the dirty things are cleansed, then our faith in God becomes fixed up. Bhagavaty uttama-sloke. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam lectures, 1.2.12, Vrndāvana, 10/23/1972, Los Angeles, 8/21/1972 None of the previous acaryas have stated that one must be at the stage of bhava/prema before hearing rasa-lila. They all say hearing the lila is a very key part of sadhana-bhakti, ie: bhakti in practice. Since SP stated numerous times that he would never deviate from the previous acaryas, we can conclude that his use of the term 'liberated' does not mean the stage of bhava/prema. What SP is talking about in that excerpt refers to non-devotees or even neophyte devotees, who are still controlled by their anarthas and thus, not properly situated to correctly understand the spiritual nature of Krsna's lila, especially rasa-lila. Non-devotees and neophytes should not prematurely read that lila, but devotees at the madhyama stage can and should, especially if they are inclined towards madhurya-rasa. Madhyama Devotees at the stage of nistha may still have some lust in their hearts, but VCT says that lust will be purified by hearing rasa-lila. Having 'lust in the heart' does not automatically mean that one is actively pursuing and expanding their sex-life. It just means that one is not yet fully purified of those anarthas, and as long as one can regulate and control such urges one is qualified to read the rasa-lila for further purification. The same analysis applies to the term "conditioned". SP is talking about non-devotees and kanisthas versus madhyamas. He is not talking about fully liberated devotees at the stage of bhava/prema. It's interesting to note that SP had us distributing Krsna Book to non-devotees since the early 70s, knowing full well that these people would read the rasa-lila which is part of that book. |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2015 12:05:17 GMT -5
Here are some related references. In his commentary to Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, Viśvanātha Cakravartī writes:
The independent activities of the Lord however, are for the benefit of the devotee. To show mercy to the devotees the Lord performs such pastimes. A person who has taken a human body, on hearing these pastimes, becomes completely dedicated to the Lord. The pastimes have a power like that of jewels, mantras or herbs so that they produce complete dedication to the Lord. They do not create sinful effects.
…Thus, just from hearing constantly and becoming addicted to any topics of Kṛṣṇa, one attains perfection, and if one hears topics of the rāsa-līlā one attains even higher perfection. One should always hear and become addicted to the five chapters on rāsa-līlā. UN, 3.27, commentary
There are, however, differences in how devotees engage in such hearing, as well as the results that ensue. It’s not just a matter of reading the pastimes casually and infrequently and simply being familiar with them. These are not ordinary stories in books. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains this in Jaiva-dharma:
Vijaya: What is irregular hearing (krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā)?
Gosvāmī: Krama-hīna-śravaṇa-daśā is hearing about kṛṣṇa-līlā in an irregular and unmethodical manner. Hearing kṛṣṇa-līlā with irresolute intelligence results in this sort of unmethodical śravaṇa, because such hearing does not enable one to realize the relationship between the various līlās, and thus, rasa does not awaken in his heart.
Vijaya: Please explain about systematic hearing (krama-śuddha-śravaṇa-daśā).
Gosvāmī: Rasa only awakens in one’s heart when kṛṣṇa-līlā is heard methodically or in a regular order with resolute intelligence. When one hears the aṣṭa-kālīya-nitya-līlā (eternal eightfold daily pastimes) separately from the naimittika-līlās (occasional līlās such as Kṛṣṇa’s divine birth and so on), then his śravaṇa is krama-śuddha. Only this krama-śuddha śravaṇa is desirable on the path of bhajana.
If one hears kṛṣṇa-līlā in the krama-śuddha manner, the sweetness and charm of the līlā is gradually conceived, and the inclination to perform rāgānugā-bhajana appears in the heart of the listener. At that time he thinks within himself, “Aho! Subala has such a wonderful sakhya-bhāva for Kṛṣṇa. I will also render loving sevā to Kṛṣṇa like him in sakhya-rasa.”
This type of strong affinity is called lobha (greed). The performance of kṛṣṇa-bhajana with such lobha, following the sweet bhāvas of the vraja-vāsīs, is called rāgānugā-bhakti. I have given the example of sakhya-rasa, but this type of rāgānugā-bhakti is also performed in all the four rasas, beginning with dāsya. JD, Chapter 40, Pages 854-855
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 20:13:52 GMT -5
Hare Krsna prabhu,
Thanks for your swift reply. I appreciate your thoughtful and sastric responses to these questions. I am impressed with and appreciative of your work on these topics. It all makes common sense.
In this regard, what exactly are we to understand by '60%,' '75%,' etc.? Does it mean all gross anarthas? The four regs only? What exactly are all the 'unwanted things' that Srila Prabhupada is talking about? Obviously one cannot be keenly and repeatedly engaged in gross sinful activity and think he can have a regular program of hearing rasa lila and imagine he will achieve some good result, but what about the desire for name and fame? We have seen many fall from the path of pure bhakti and become completely trapped by pratistha - "I am a rasika bhakta!" "I know the intimate details of the Lord's pastimes!" "I am now an intimate associate!", when it may all just be mental speculation. As far as I understand, we have to be invited into the pastimes by the recommendation of our spiritual master, who petitions the Lord on our behalf. We cannot gatecrash the party. We can desire to go inside, but until we become purified and qualified by coming under strict discipline of guru, hearing hari katha from him, becoming cleansed of gross and subtle anarthas, and him being pleased with our menial service and surrender and humble mood, it will never happen.
And the subtle anarthas may be apparent to others, but not to themselves. Their 'guru' may even be fanning these flames and not correcting the disciple who is now thinking he is 'advanced.' One may not even be under a currently manifest guru who is correcting one. Even if our physically present guru departs, we still need further help.* And if one is sincere, then Krsna will speak through someone else. Point being, that we may think, "Now my guru has left, I will make my own way home now and construct my own bhajan path and engage in hearing rasa lila." When actually that disciple should simply be engaged in manual labour (banging nails into wood, for example).
We tend to be puffed up and think our adhikara is higher than it actually is and therefore we need (Sri) guru. Not just any guru, but bona fide rep to guide us appropriately. Do you agree?
So one may think, "Well, I have stopped gross sin and now I can read rasa lila," but the desire for name and fame still flourishes with abandon. One may have an overinflated sense of one's actual position.
One may not even be situated in the varnasrama system under a bona fide guru in disciplic succession and still think one is 'advanced,' whereas Srila Prabhupada points out in the purports to the discussions between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya that yes, there are higher things but that does not mean one can be situated outside varnasrama to understand them:
The spiritual orders -- brahmacarya, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa -- are called asramas. If one executes his prescribed duty in both the social and spiritual orders, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is satisfied. If one neglects his duties, however, he becomes a transgressor and a candidate for a hellish condition. Madhya 8.58
You can't be going to hell AND be going to Goloka. Also elsewhere ("One must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas." SB 5.1.14). For example, a woman always should be under the protection of a male - husband or son, or one's guru (if none available). Everyone should be within the system first and THEN one should progress. First come to human platform, then sattva guna, then suddha sattva.
My concern is that those without proper spiritual guidance we will have an artificial sense of self. I know you agree that without guru, such endeavours of raganuga bhakti are not likely to succeed.
Also, if you are not factually connected to a liberated soul (Srila Prabhupada says that bona fide guru must be physically manifest*), then who are we actually serving? A previous acarya? Can we serve, for example, Kamala Manjari, directly? Or do we need to take shelter under one of her maidservants, a hundred times removed (or whatever the number), who is present before us? Isn't it required that one be directly serving a physically manifest liberated soul, one who is factually situated simultaneously in Vraja lila? Otherwise what is our factual connection? How will we be trained? Isn't it required to be directly serving a manifest liberated soul? And they tell us what service Radha and Krsna desire and will accept? Srila Prabhupada states that if one is serious one will get such a guru:
This means that Kṛṣṇa as the Supersoul is seated within the heart of the living entity, and WHEN THE LIVING ENTITY IS SERIOUS, THE LORD DIRECTS HIM TO TAKE SHELTER OF HIS REPRESENTATIVE, A BONA FIDE SPIRITUAL MASTER. (SB 3.3.16) (Sorry for caps. That is how I had it in another doc.)
And without this step, there is no bhakti:
Prabhupada: There is no devotion unless you go to a guru. FORGET IT. Adau gurvasrayam. First thing is, first business, is to accept a bona fide guru. Otherwise there is no devotion. It is simply false imitation. This is the injunction of Rapa Gosvami in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu. Adau gurvasrayam: "Your first business is to approach bona fide guru and take his asraya." Otherwise there is no devotion. That has been the defect in the modern society. They imagine. This business should be given up. He must follow. Sadhu marganugamanam, which is prescribed by the sadhu, guru, you have to accept that. You cannot manufacture
your own way. BBSR Jan 23 1977:
Anyway, these are a few questions that I thought of that I would appreciate your answers to.
Your servant,
Vraja das
*"Krishna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a physical spiritual master." That is enjoined in the following verse:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadekshyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
(Bhagavad-Gita Lecture 4.34—New York, August 14, 1966)
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 29, 2015 1:18:34 GMT -5
Thanks for your kind words of support. I appreciate it. In Madhurya-kadambini, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains the 4 different types of anarthas, the 5 stages of gradual eradication, and the timeline of those 5 stages mapped onto the last stages of the 8-fold path to prema. Here is an attached chart which illustrates these details.  What SP is referring to is the point at which one’s anarthas subside to the extent that one’s spiritual goals take top priority over anything else, ie: nistha. As we can see from the chart, anarthas remain even up until the stage of bhava. None of the acaryas are specific about exactly which anarthas remain, other than the references to the 4 general types of anarthas. Agreed. One who is thus engaged is certainly not at the stage of nistha, but still struggling with anartha-nivritti in general. Such persons should not prematurely indulge in reading these lilas. Generally speaking, when someone progresses to the stage of awakening their desired relationship with Krsna and all things connected to that, there is also the simultaneous manifestation of deeper humility and a more acute awareness and acceptance of one’s true fallen condition. These are parallel developments in one who is genuinely making progress. If there is the presence of pride and superiority as you described, then we can understand that this person is not yet fully mature in his/her realizations and is in a precarious position. Progress on the path of bhakti, especially raganuga-bhakti, requires constant self-introspection and brutal honesty about one’s condition. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes about this in Caitanya-śikṣāmṛta: The devotees performing sādhana-bhakti should always be attentive to the condition of their devotion, perceiving the state yesterday and the improvement made today. If he perceives that after some days no progress has been made according to the stages given above, he must understand that some offense must have been committed. … Those who do not care to examine their progress will advance very slowly due to the unseen obstacles they have created. Devotees, take special precaution in this matter! CS, Chapter 6, Part 2 None of the acaryas have used that specific language or state that as the primary qualification. But it is understood that it is by the mercy of one’s guru(s) that one makes any progress in bhakti. That goes without saying and it is a constant factor throughout one’s devotional journey. The qualification for beginning raganuga-bhakti is that one has awakened or realized one’s desired relationship with Krsna, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya. Along with that, one must also have identified a specific Vraja-vasi whose raga and bhava one aspires to emulate as the prime example of one’s own aspirations. The final qualifying ingredient is an intense desire (lobha/greed) to attain that type of relationship and a similar raga and bhava of the associate one is following. Those are the specific qualifications given by the acaryas. Agreed. But not 100% cleansed of anarthas. None of the acaryas say that. That is not an absolute requirement for becoming qualified for raganuga-bhakti. Which is precisely why I mentioned the necessity of constant self-introspection and brutal honesty. And of course, good association helps with that, ie: external feedback from honest associates. There is a distinct pattern to some of your concerns that is missing some important considerations. Certainly your concerns are valid and there are very likely some people who think in the faulty ways you described. However, you also have to consider that, in the specific case of those whose gurus have left, there are many who never feel separated from their guru(s) or Krsna. And rightly so. They are constantly consulting their guru(s) and Krsna within their hearts, as a permanent and integral part of their on-going process. That is the essence of “Krsna consciousness” for a practicing devotee. Having realized clearly that their progress is due to mercy from multiple sources, such devotees never think or act without being conscious of their gurus’ instructions and guidance, as well as the intelligence and guidance that Krsna promised He would give to those who are sincerely and continuously devoted to Him. You cannot ignore nor minimize this very significant factor in the lives of sincere devotees. Agreed. It is my great fortune to be personally guided by Srila Prabhupada. Those dangers are always looming and thus, one should be constantly vigilant regarding such weeds growing around one’s bhakti creeper. We are following the path of bhakti specifically as delineated by Rupa Gosvami, which was taught to him directly by Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya rejected varnasrama as unnecessary later in that chapter, and thus, we are not obligated to follow it. We will not go to hell by neglecting varnasrama. There is no mandate that we must first perfect varnasrama. None of the acaryas teach that. It’s not in BRS or any of their books. That is for people at lower stages of progress, not Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Guidance from advanced association is always required, but it comes in various forms according to one’s circumstances and Krsna’s arrangements. From SP’s lecture on NOD: But in this life, if we develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness by association of devotees... As Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung, tāṅdera caraṇa-sevi-bhakta-sane vāsa. One's aim of life should be to serve the ācāryas. Ācārya upāsanam. So our ācārya in the Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava Sampradāya, the śrī-rūpa sanātana bhaṭṭa-raghunātha, śrī-jīva gopāla-bhaṭṭa dāsa-raghunātha, the Six Gosvāmīns, and if we associate with them... this book, Nectar of Devotion, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, if you read regularly, try to understand, this means you are associating with Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī directly. And if you act accordingly, then you are serving their lotus feet.” Ideally, we should have the direct physical guidance of a premi-bhakta, but that is not always possible or practical due to so many factors out of our control. We have to deal with our existing reality as presented by our karma and Krsna’s arrangements. Krsna promises to take care of His devotees who are sincere and constantly endeavoring to serve Him through His representatives. We have to have full faith in His promises. Here is what VCT has to say about enlightenment in RVC:
When this greed has appeared in the heart, one becomes enlightened in different ways. Uddhava says in Śrīmad-bhāgavatam, 11.29.6: “Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself through the ācārya or through the agency of the Supersoul.” Thus, some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Kṛṣṇa and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned rāgānugā devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled. The acaryas have given the full details in their books about acceptable service and various types of relationships. It’s all there in their teachings and I’ve presented a detailed summary study of that information in my book. That is the logical starting point for learning these things. Even a physically present guru will first tell his students to study these books thoroughly and carefully. They are not going to personally read and explain every single word of every book to each disciple. That is not practical - it never happens that way. You read/study and then you inquire for a deeper understanding and clarification. In the circumstantial absence of a physically present guru, Krsna will enlighten a sincere devotee from within, and that happens by the mercy of one’s gurus. That is His promise. I’m not sure why you keep emphasizing this point. I have taken shelter of SP, who is a powerful premi-bhakta guru and I’ve also taken shelter of the teachings of the previous acaryas, which SP said above was as good as associating with them. If others are in the same position, then the issue of taking shelter of a guru is a moot point. We are already doing that. If, due to circumstances, one cannot find a suitable advanced siksa guru who is favorably disposed, one is not impeded from making advancement. Nothing I have presented on this forum or in my book is outside of the scope of the teachings of our Gaudiya acaryas. I have given ample evidence for every point I’ve made from multiple acaryas. If anyone thinks that my analyses are faulty, they are encouraged to present their own analysis and supporting evidence to reveal my mistakes. I will gladly correct any errors I have inadvertently made. |
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Post by niscala on Jan 29, 2015 2:44:45 GMT -5
Nice discussion!
Vraja:Isn't it required to be directly serving a manifest liberated soul? And they tell us what service Radha and Krsna desire and will accept?
If you do meet them, that is not what they will tell you. In Jaiva Dharma, the liberated soul Ragunatha Dasa Babaji did not tell his disciples what service Radha and Krsna will accept, he asked his two disciples what rasa and service they were most attracted to, in terms of the four rasas, and one was attracted to serve Subala and the other Lalita.
The only qualification for raganuga is an intense desire to serve and emulate the eternal ragatmikas engaged in their service to Krsna. It is not that one thinks "Now I am advanced" in fact, the more one focuses on one's chosen ragatmika, the more one becomes embarrassed at one's own lack of qualification and miserable lack of prema. The sweetness, expertise, charm, mercifulness and constant ever-increasing love of the ragatmika cause both attraction and humility. And we have a LOT to be humble about, now we know that we were never qualified for Vraja prema, and are not actually some unfortunate nitya siddha having a bad dream.:-) Therefore, it was important that Uttamasloka covered this in his book.
In regard to the rest of the discussion, on the one hand we have encouragement from our acaryas that hearing rasa lila will cleanse the heart from lust,on the other hand there are references that reading such lila may produce or at least re-ignite lust- by reminding the hearer of his own affairs with women.
One reason the latter may happen (and thus it is inadvisable to hear rasa lila) is as Uttamasloka pointed out, lack of advancement in anartha nvrtti. The other reason may be that even if one is accomplished in anartha nivrtti, but one's natural rasa is not madhurya- in this case even if one has "given up the material path" and has taste for another rasa, the topic of madhurya rasa will cause him material disturbances:
Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura: This topic (madhurya rasa) is unsuitable even for those who have given up the material path, and who have taste for santa, dasya, sakhya and vatsalya rasa, but who do not have taste for ujjvala-rasa (madhurya)--since they see it as material, seeing it from the point of view of material lust.
So, as Srila Prabhupada said, Krsna consciousness is like eating- only you can tell if you are satisfied or not, if some sadhana practice is working or not. It is, after all, YOUR consciousness. If reading rasa lila produces attraction and love for Radha, Krsna and the gopis and non-attraction for sex, and sense gratification in general, then one should hear it more and more- all topics of madhurya rasa, and focus entirely on this type of lila, as it will purify the heart.
If reading of Krsna's loving affairs of the gopis reminds one initially of sense gratification, but over time, and more purification, when one returns to it again, one finds it has a desirable effect, then one should pursue it, for this also indicates one's rasa is madhurya, and one needs to cultivate that.
If reading topics of madhurya rasa continue to produce no Krsna conscious devotional sentiments, then it is likely that another rasa will be more suitable to one's taste, and one should focus on lila that contains other types of interactions- such as with the older affectionate gopis, the friends, the servants, and seeing which type of pastime attracts one the most.
I hope all I have said is correct, otherwise let us know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 7:51:47 GMT -5
Hare Krsna Uttamasloka prabhu,
Thanks for your considered response. I wasn't calling into question your presentation or personal bhajan path. The questions were for my personal understanding. I was just wanting clarification on those items that I presented and appreciate how you dealt with them. I concur with your faithful re-presentation of the acaryas teachings on this topic and very much appreciate your big efforts to create your book.
Regarding varnasrama: I understand that ultimately it is to be rejected, and I never mentioned that it must be 'perfected' to obtain Krsna prema. I didn't quote anything in that vein. I was just highlighting the fact that immaturely or prematurely rejecting varnasrama, and acting contrary to it, all the while lacking sufficient introspection and adhikara for raganuga bhakti, will create disturbances in society, as Srila Prabhupada stated there.
Regarding 'invitation,' I refer to this: "Krsna can give us whatever we want, even mukti, liberation, but bhakti is a special consideration because when He gives someone bhakti He becomes purchased by the bhakta and becomes a tool in the hands of the bhakta, even though He is the supreme powerful. Radharani, the symbol of the topmost bhakti, is so powerful that She has purchased Krsna. Therefore Vaisnavas take shelter of the lotus feet of Radharani, for if She recommends, "Oh, here is a nice devotee," Krsna must accept him."
So, by 'invitation,' I mean 'recommendation,' like that. The meaning I was trying to convey is the same. (TQK 24: Cutting Off Ties of Affection)
Thanks again.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 19:14:39 GMT -5
One more:
By the mercy of guru, you get the mercy of Krsna. If, if guru approves, that "Here is a nice devotee," then Krsna accepts, "Yes, here is a nice devotee." (Bhagavad-gita 7.1 -- Melbourne, June 29, 1974)
Vraja
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Post by niscala on Jan 29, 2015 22:02:41 GMT -5
In Sri Chaitanya Siksamrita, Bhaktivinode Thakura gives a detailed explanation of the souls evolution, from immoral atheism, to moral atheism, then moral theism, which is varnasrama, then vaidhi bhakti, then raganuga bhakti, then bhava bhakti. When one evolves from one step to the next, he takes with him only those practices favorable for the next step.
An activity prominent in varnasrama, which is not favorable for vaidhi, is pious activity aimed at elevation to the higher planets, such as worship of the demigods. A mentality prominent in varnasrama, which is unfavorable for vaidhi bhakti, is caste consciousness. Favorable activities such as respecting guests and elders are not rejected. In vaidhi bhakti, one becomes aware that Krsna is in the hearts of all and respects and is kind to everyone, unless one is on the platform of kanishta...
Similarly when one evolves from vaidhi to raganuga, one leaves off certain practices of vaidhi such as those which emphasize Krsna's majestic aspect as Visnu, or His qualities and pastimes suitable for raganuga, but not suitable for one's desired rasa.
The qualification for passing from varnasrama to vaidhi is faith in the bhakti sastra, which spawns a desire to perform devotional service, knowing that Krsna is God and we are his eternal servant. The qualification for passing from vaidhi to raganuga is lobha to have a relationship with Krsna like that of a resident of Vraja, treating Krsna not as God but as a master, friend, child or lover.
Since we evolve over many lifetimes, if you have faith in the sastra, the qualification for vaidhi bhakti, then it is to be understood you have already performed the sacrifices and pious activities prominent in varnasrama. In doing so, one still acts piously- but not for elevation to higher planets- but because such actions like truthfulness, kindness and cleanliness- are pleasing to Krsna.
Just because some activities in vaidhi may seem contrary to varnasrama (neglect of demigod worship and respecting people not according to their caste- but level of devotion) that doesn't mean that those performing vaidhi have not passed through varnasrama, as it is understood that one who chants the holy name of Krsna has already performed all the sacrifices recommended in the Vedas, and engaged in all the recommended pious activity.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 29, 2015 22:57:14 GMT -5
Understood. Thanks again.
It's also important to understand that even though one may have the direct physical association of a premi-bhakta, that is still not a guarantee that one will make advancement faster than one who doesn't have that association. The possibility is there but it is not guaranteed. Many so-called 'senior' devotees had lots of personal association with Srila Prabhupada, as did many in Srila Narayana Maharaja's group, but that doesn't mean they were or are automatically more advanced or realized than those who didn't. In fact, most of those who did have extensive association with SP fell away into obscurity - "again become a mouse".
One's relationship with one's guru is transcendental and is not wholly dependent on physical proximity. It's a matter of one's consciousness and intent and sincerity more than anything else, and revelation is a direct gift from Krsna within and is in reciprocation with our faith and devotion to our guru and Krsna:
Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed." SU, 6.23
Well, you did say, "You can't be going to hell AND be going to Goloka." There is no fear of "going to hell" for Gaudiya Vaisnavas because we don't have to follow varnasrama in any way. It is not part of Rupa Gosvami's teachings, nor any other acaryas. It is not part of sadhana-bhakti. Varnasrama is for society in general, and even then, it isn't very practical for modern society because it requires an understanding and acceptance of so many things that are beyond the grasp of most people. Srila Prabhupada's desire to implement some form of varnasrama was a broad-based plan to gradually transform society. It was not part of our program for progressing in sadhana-bhakti.
The idea of one's guru or Radha recommending a devotee is just another way of saying that one is dependent on the mercy of one's gurus. It is not a specific step or some sort of formality that takes place at some point. It's part of the underlying current of mercy and blessings that are essential to our progress.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 23:32:10 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
Thanks again. I appreciate your comments and clarification.
I should also say that your book has been personally inspiring to me, having cleared up many misconceptions I had about the path of bhakti and reminded me of these important and necessary topics.
Your servant,
Vraja
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 1:16:58 GMT -5
Prabhu,
I completely agree with you regarding the necessity of giving up varnasrama. Here's one reference:
“Without hesitation, one should take exclusive shelter of Lord Krishna with full confidence, giving up bad association and even neglecting the regulative principles of the four varnas and four ashramas. That is to say, one should abandon all material attachment.” (Cc. Madhya 22.93)
Ys,
Vraja
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 30, 2015 13:47:34 GMT -5
You're most welcome. I'm very happy to hear that my book has been valuable to your progress in bhakti.  Here's another reference we just read today in SB, 11.17.1-2, From the Commentary by VCT: That dharma of bhakti has three types: pure bhakti, mixed bhakti (ie: bhakti mixed with some karma, jnana and yoga) and secondary bhakti (ie: karma, jnana and yoga mixed with some bhakti). Pure bhakti arises in humans with or without varṇāśrama by association with pure devotees, by good fortune. It does not arise from varṇāśrama or other processes. You (Krsna) have said: I cannot be attained by intense efforts of yoga, Sāṅkhya, charity, vows, austerity, sacrifices, explaining the Vedas, study of the Vedas, or sannyāsa. SB 11.12.9 When persons practicing varṇāśrama contact pure bhakti by devotional association, they give up varṇāśrama and perform the dharma of bhakti. A person who, understanding good and bad aspects of dharma as taught by Me, gives up all his duties and simply worships Me is the best of all. SB 11.1.1132 Mixed bhakti and secondary bhakti arise from one’s dharma and from association with persons with mixed bhakti or secondary bhakti. How mixed and secondary bhakti arises, You alone know. Bhaktiḥ in verse 2 refers to mixed and secondary bhakti. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 19:27:09 GMT -5
Hare Krsna prabhu,
Nice quotes. Thanks again.
Ys,
Vraja
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Vrindavan das
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"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 10, 2015 11:43:22 GMT -5
Sisyatva (Discipleship)
The Eternal Servitor-ship of a Real Disciple in order to Receive the Gift of the Guru: KRSNA Prema
From a class delivered by Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami Maharaja (Bhubaneswar – March 18, 1993)
One who can inculcate pure loving devotion unto you, he is a real guru. He who has given me prema-bhakti at the lotus feet of Krishna, he is my supreme friend, he is my eternal father and mother. He is a real guru. If you tread this path of prema-bhakti then there is no fear of death, no fear of Yamaraj. No fear. So he has saved me from the clutches of Maya, clutches of Yamaraja. Those who cannot given me prema-bhakti at the lotus feet of Krishna, their guru-ship is partial guru-ship, he who has made me realize this eternal servitude-ship is my eternal guru, real guru — he has established my relationship with that Supreme Eternal.
“So one who is completely cent percent surrendered unto the lotus feet of such a guru, who is fortunate enough and has gotten such a guru he will get the mercy. He is really fortunate soul. But if that disciple develops duplicity and is superficial, not serious in the heart only showing outwardly, yes, yes, “Gurudeva shower your mercy on me…” just outwardly showing and speaking from the lips but inside there is a different mood. There is duplicity there. He deserves cheating, not mercy therefore sadhu-guru has two things kripa and vancana, mercy and cheating. So what you deserve will come to you. And Krishna knows the heart, if really in your heart you are purified. If duplicity is there then your heart is contaminated. All your activities are only for show, only outward and based on duplicity then you deserve cheating. you cannot get the mercy.
Those who are nama bhajana kari they have to follow these eight things. First thing is they should develop unflinching faith, strong faith in the words of sadhu-sastra-guru. Second he should develop greed for the association of a nama tattva vit sadhu, a sadhu which knows nama tattva he should always remain in such association. Third thing, he should be greedy to hear the Krsna Katha, Hari Katha that is coming out from the lotus lips of such a sadhu. What he hears then by the order of that sadhu guru he speaks, he does kirtana. That is sravana kirtana process. The fourth consideration is if you follow then all your anarthas will be completely destroyed, anartha nivrtti. Then sadhaka will come to the platform of nistha. Nistha means no oscillation of the mind because there are no anarthas, no unwanted things are there, no other desire is there.
This is the only thing, how to render loving service unto Krishna and give Him pleasure. it is only for His pleasure then your mind will be fixed in the holy name fixed at the lotus feet of Krishna. That is man mana bhava. That is nistha, aikantika nistha. This is the fifth thing. Then sixth thing is your mellow will be revealed to you, dasya, sakya, vatsalya, madhurya and based on that mellow on that platform you will engage constantly in bhajan,
hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare
hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
This is called sarasika ruci. This is ruci based on that mellow. Then the seventh things is, it will be very painful for you to give up chanting the holy name even for a moment. You will feel pain, this is asakti, Strong attachment to the holy name. then you will develop bhava. Bhava comes prior to the rising of pure prema, bhava bhakti. And last is prema. When bhava matures then prema arises. That is called sthaya-rati. This are the eight things. This is the instruction of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada Maharaja.
Thank you.
I think you have gotten something at least 30%. It is very difficult to understand. It isn’t an easy thing but it is the most important. Unless your heart is purified, unless your consciousness is purified, you cannot understand. There is no question of understanding and Kaviraj Goswami says apana sodhite for my own purification i will write. Not for my material purpose or material gain. It is for the pleasure of Guru and Gauranga. Then the heart will be purified. Then you can understand it. Otherwise you cannot understand.
Hare Hé!
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