Back to Godhead

First, let's be very clear that what I have presented regarding the spirit soul never falling from the spiritual world is not simply 'my analysis' - it is a preponderance of unambiguous direct sastra and it is 100% confirmed by the previous acaryas and Srila Prabhupada and Krsna Himself. It is their analysis. I have only compiled and presented the evidence.

Regarding the slogan, "Back home, back to Godhead", that should not be taken as an indication that we are going 'back' to some place we have been. Many devotees mistakenly try to use that slogan and the word 'back' to try to prove that we were there. That is not how to establish Vaisnava tattvas or siddhantas.

We are spiritual beings - tatastha-jivas, and so our origin is Krsna (Maha Visnu to be specific), who is the Supreme spiritual source of everything. The material world is not our permanent home because we are like fish out of water, ie: spirit covered by matter and deluded by maya. When jivas are liberated and enter the spiritual realm they have entered their true home, ie: the place which is of the same spiritual nature as they are.

You cannot take one word in a slogan and try to use it as concrete evidence while completely ignoring an avalanche of sastra and acaryas' statements which establish the correct truth. How do you explain the references I gave in the other thread we were discussing? Those statements by Srila Prabhupada, Krsna, and the acaryas were clear and irrefutable. Can you explain them in any other way to support the fall idea?

It's a common experience where someone might be hanging out with some new friends who have never been to their house and that person still says, "Let's go back to my house and hang out there."

Here is another angle to broaden our perspective and understanding. The fall proponents say that we were previously engaged in the lila in a relationship with Krsna and we will simply re-awaken that previous relationship and pick up where we left off. If that was true, then we should expect to find some statements in sastra and from the acaryas which clearly describe this re-awakening and re-instatement of our former position. No such statements exist in any of the 30 books of the acaryas that I studied carefully, nor is that described in SB or any other sastra that I'm aware of. It is always described as a new beginning.

In fact, we don't actually "go back to Godhead" after attaining prema. We first have to take birth on another earth planet in Krsna's bhauma-lila, ie: the manifest pastimes (prakata-lila), and the reasons given are that we first have to establish our full self-conception as one of the residents of Vraja, with parents, siblings, husband, etc. In addition to that, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains that the full development of our prema cannot take place while still in a material body because a material body cannot tolerate the extreme transformations brought about by the higher stages of prema.

Therefore, we have to take birth from the womb of a nitya-siddha gopi, by which we attain our eternal spiritual body (vastu-siddhi), and in that transcendental form - which is awarded by Krsna and not simply 'reawakened from some sleeping state' - we can perfect our prema in the association of the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis and Krsna Himself. Why would we have to perfect our prema if it was already existing and is simply being reawakened? That makes no sense, and the reason is because it is not true. Here is the explanation of this from VCT's Raga-vartma-candrika:

One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”

The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’

‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakaṭa-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.

Therefore, those devotees for whom yoga māyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on, arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.

Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhūmi and siddha bhūmi.

Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”

Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.

He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.

Therefore, O greatly eager anurāgi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7

First of all you have to answer these questions: Why or how would anyone in Krsna's spiritual realm, which is full of unlimited bliss and the highest ever-increasing prema, become envious of Him? We're talking about trillions and trillions, ie: unlimited jivas, who supposedly became envious and rejected Krsna, causing Him to banish them to the material world as punishment. What kind of place is the spiritual realm if that can happen?

Next, it is important to understand that there is no possibility of anyone in the spiritual world becoming rebellious or negative towards Krsna. The modes of nature and maya cannot enter that realm, and that is confirmed in Brahma-samhita and SB. The acaryas used many terms to describe the fallen condition of the nitya-baddha jivas, ie: we rejected Krsna, we turned away from Him, we wanted to enjoy like Him, we rebelled against Him, we became envious of Him, etc. Such statements appear to imply that these negative attitudes manifested while these jivas were in the spiritual world, but that is not the case. It is a mistake to extrapolate that conclusion. Here are some references:

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees. SB, 2.9.10

The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. SB, 3.15.19, purport

As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (7.27): “O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.” This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varāha Purāṇa, He expands Himself in viṣṇu-tattva (the svāṁśa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnāṁśa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnāṁśa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. SB, 4.28.53, purport

Note that in this last purport, SP first establishes that, "In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate." Then later he says, "When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord." Since there is no possibility of duality or hate in the spiritual world, the only logical conclusion is that the jiva's desire to enjoy themselves and their duality and hatred of service cannot happen while they are in the spiritual world. It happens when they make their first choice between going to the material or spiritual worlds. This is explained by BVT in JD:

Yādava dāsa: Why have we fallen into this illusory relationship?

Ananta dāsa: Bhagavān is the complete spiritual entity (purṇa-cidvastu), and the jīvas are particles of spirit (cit-kaṇa). The jīva‘s first location is on the boundary line between the material and spiritual worlds. The jīvas who do not forget their relationship with Kṛṣṇa are empowered with cit-śakti, and are drawn from that position into the spiritual realm, where they become His eternal associates and begin to relish the bliss of His service.

Those jīvas who turn away from Kṛṣṇa desire to enjoy māyā, and māyā attracts them towards her by her potency. From that moment, our material state of existence comes into being and our true spiritual identity disappears. We therefore think, “I am the enjoyer of māyā”. This false egoism covers us with many varieties of false identities. JD, Chapter 7, page 145

Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote more on this subject in Jaiva-dharma, chapters 15 & 16, which will provide even more details to the question you asked. I suggest that you read those chapters. Many other questions are answered there, such as:

Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is situated in tatastha-svabhava, or the junction, of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?

Vrajanatha: Krsna is karunamaya (full of mercy), so why did He make the jiva so weak that he became entangled in maya?

Vrajanatha: Why must the jivas suffer for the sake of Bhagavan’s pastimes?

Vrajanatha: What harm would there have been if the jiva had not been given independent desire? Krsna is omniscient, and He gave this independence to the jivas, even though He knew that they would suffer on account of it, so isn’t He responsible for the jiva’s suffering?

Vrajanatha: Is maya-sakti the cause of our misfortune then? Would the jivas have had to suffer like this if the omnipotent and omniscient Sri Krsna had kept maya away from them?