Guru as a manifestation of Paramatma

Alexander: You are correct that the guru is the external manifestation of Krsna or Paramatma. Paramatma is Krsna's manifestation for our own individual personal care and guidance throughout our material sojourn.

But we should not misunderstand that to mean that the spiritual master is actually Krsna directly. He is Krsna's representative/agent and Krsna is speaking through him to the conditioned souls. Saksad hari tvena samasta sastrair... Krsna uses him as an instrument and the surrendered guru accepts that service. Of course that is under ideal circumstances and I'm talking about a genuine guru, ie: one who is fully sincere, advanced and surrendered, and ideally a realized devotee on the platform of bhava or prema. It becomes more complicated when the guru is not fully realized and is thus still prone to error and falling down.

If there are discrepancies between the guru's instructions and our internal guidance, we should consult sadhu and sastra to confirm and clarify the issue. If sadhu and sastra confirm our internal guidance we should then approach our guru to try to resolve the apparent discrepancies. Bhakti is a dynamic process and one should be thoughtful and discriminating and not merely a blind follower.

I have also read what you have read about siksa and diksa gurus being harmonious and you're right that it is, or can be, rather complicated these days. I can't see the practicality of a siksa guru constantly confirming with the diksa guru what they can teach to the disciple. That is too constricting and not realistic. If the diksa guru recommends or confirms a siksa guru for their disciples, they should accept that this siksa guru is advanced and qualified as such. Keep in mind that one's diksa guru ideally should be one's primary siksa guru as well because siksa is the most important thing for continued progress.

If one learns something from a siksa guru that contradicts the diksa guru's teachings, then the disciple should approach the diksa guru and discuss these things openly with him/her. And the siksa guru could even be included in those discussions. These days, it's quite possible that a siksa guru may be more advanced and learned than one's diksa guru, so the diksa guru may not be fully equipped to teach more advanced subjects. Under those circumstances, one would hope that the diksa guru would defer to the more advanced siksa guru and even be humble enough to take siksa from him/her themselves.

I hope that this discussion forum would be seen as a dynamic "book" regarding the deeper understanding and implementations of the subjects discussed in my book. That was its intended purpose. So far so good, I think.

Devotee 1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.



Devotee 2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?



Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.



Devotee 2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend.



Devotee 3: What if one is a disciple of a bonafide guru, then later on that guru stops his lila. What should one do?



Gour Govinda Swami: Lila is always there:



adyapiha sei lila kare gaura-raya,

kona kona bhagyavan dekhibare paya

(Cb. quoted in Bhaktivinode Thakur's Navadvipa Mahatmya Pramana-khanda)



Gauranga's pastimes are still going on. People say, "Oh Gauranga Mahaprabhu has disappeared." One who is very fortunate and has vision he can see how gaura-lila is going on.



Devotee 3: That means that guru is always there?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. He is always there. His lila is going on.



Devotee 3: I may think, "I have already taken the dust of the lotus feet of my guru. Now he is not here. So I don't need that dust anymore."



Gour Govinda Swami: Darsana is there. The guru is always there if you have the eye to see. If you are a sat-sisya you can always see how the guru is present.



Devotee 4: How can we see guru?



Gour Govinda Swami: Blind man! If you are endowed with that vision you can see.I never lost sight of my guru. I see my guru is always there. Therefore I cannot say,"nitya-lila-pravistha". It is so painful to me. No! He is here.



Devotee 4: Do you have to be a pure dovotee to see a pure devotee?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes! That vision is required. If you have no vision then you are a blind man.How can a blind man see? The object is there. What is required to see the object? The first thing is the eye. Next is light. You may be endowed with vision, but if there is no light, how can you see? Can you see in the darkness? Therefore two things are required, first vision and then light. Even if you are endowed with eyes, if there is no light then you can't see. What is that light? The enlightenment by the mercy potency. If you are devoid of that, how can you see?



Devotee 5: Anarthas are like clouds in front of the eye?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Yes. Anarthas are like clouds covering the sun. The eye is covered.



Devotee 2: Can one see guru appearing in different forms, or is he coming in dreams?



Gour Govinda Swami: He may come in a dream. He has different forms also, just as Krishna has different forms. Krishna has so many manifestations. Therefor we have described in our book Sri Guru-vandana about samasti-guru and vyasti-guru.



Devotee 6: What are those kind of gurus?



Gour Govinda Swami: Guru Krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane (Cc. adi-lila1.45} -- scripture describes that it is Krishna who appears as guru.



Krishna is one. Guru tattva is also one. Guru is one, but he appears in different, different, forms. That is samasti-guru. The particular forms such as Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Bhakitisiddhanta, this person and that, this is vyasti-guru.



Devotee 3: When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati left, guru was still there?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.



Devotee 3: Guru is always present?



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, always present.



Devotee 3: Because guru is non-different from Krishna we understand that to be a guru is not an easy thing. So why is it said that someone maybe on the level of kanistha or madhyama and be guru?



Gour Govinda Swami: All are gurus. There is kanistha-guru, madhyama-guru, uttama-gurus. Divisions are there. What you deserve you get. Krishna knows what you deserve so He makes an appropriate arrangement for you.



Devotee 7: Some devotees are not accepting guru now. They are saying, "I'll just accept sastra."



Gour Govinda Swami: How can you understand sastra?



Devotee 7: But we have seen, as in Russia, that some devotees have only gotten books and they are now chanting, worshiping the deity, and preaching.



Gour Govinda Swami: You cannot understand. In sastra, mantra is there. Nama is there. But unless it comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, your chanting will never be effective. The potency will never be there.



Devotee 7: But they say that smrti-sastra is coming from the lips of vaisnavas, so we are hearing smrti.



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. This is how sastra manifests. When is comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, then it manifests. Though sastra is there, by itself it will never manifest to you. It's a question of manifestation.



Devotee 7: Other persons say that we can hear from the commentaries of the vaisnava-acaryas.



Gour Govinda Swami: For that reason it is said,



bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam

na buddhya na ca tikaya



Srimad Bhagavatam can only be understood by bhakti, not be dint of one's intelligence or by reading commentaries. (Cc.24.313)



You cannot understand Bhagavata by taking help of the tikas, commentaries. So many commentaries are there. One may think, "Yes, I am a scholar. It is all written in Sanskrit. I know the language so I can read and understand it." No! You can only understand Srimad Bhagavatam by bhakti. You cannot understand Bhagavata by dint of your material scholarship, learning, intelligence, or by taking the help of the commentaries. No, no. Hear from acarya and then you can develop bhakti. Unless you hear, how can you understand just by reading? You cannot understand. Grantha-avatara will never manifest to you. You will only see paper, and black and white. Nothing else.



Devotee 7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press.



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him."



Devotee 7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra...



Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here."



Devotee 7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact?



Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru.

Uttamasloka: If one learns something from a siksa guru that contradicts the diksa guru's teachings, then the disciple should approach the diksa guru and discuss these things openly with him/her.

That might be hard to do since mostly they have more important things to do than discuss their disciples' doubts. I was initiated twice and never had a connection with either guru, but I tried very hard with the second one. I wrote him a string of letters, voicing my doubts and issues. No reply from any of them. Finally I became interested in some GBC banned books as they made a lot of sense and were based on sastra. On someone's suggestion I wrote to him again and asked him if it would be OK to read these books, and if he had any objection, then let me know. Of course he didn't write back- again. So I eventually was so affected by these books that I took the author of these books as my second siksa guru, and we exchanged emails up to four a day, until all my doubts about the philosophy and the process were cleared- on the basis of sastra.

My conclusion is that a guru- diksa or siksa- is not created from a ceremony or rubberstamp GBC approval. Srila Prabhupada said (I have the quote somewhere) that the important thing is that KNOWLEDGE is given by the guru, and accepted and taken to heart by the disciple, and that the ceremony is not important.

So, my point is that real guru is one who gives knowledge to the disciple. If they don't, they cannot justly be called gurus, though they might be nice devotees in other ways. Whoever is committed to your spiritual advancement is real guru, and in due course he may become diksa guru. Whoever is not, is not.

If they show enough interest in your spiritual life that they will discuss something you have heard from your siksa guru, and they disagree but can't back up their opinion with sastra, whereas the siksa guru's opinion is completely backed up by sastra, then one should accept the siksa guru's opinion, because everything must be backed up by sastra. If the diksa guru cannot do so, and preaches against what is in the sastra, his teaching should be rejected.

He should still be respected as a devotee however. Every person who chants should be offered respects and no one should be disrespected, even if he disappointed you as a guru- the disappointment is all part of the learning process- who is a real guru- by first learning who is not.

Hare Krsna Vrndavana prabhu,

My conviction is that the mere existence of this book of Uttamasloka prabhu's is a sure sign that Krsna is continuing to provide us all with all kinds of essential assistance, both externally and internally, as required, to advance in our spiritual lives. Appropriate siksa from Krsna (at least for some lucky souls), via this book, is clearly continuing, and at least for myself, in a very positive way.

It is helping many of us to continue our spiritual progress, to move from vaidhi to raganuga bhakti, in an authorised and scientific manner, with everything being confirmed internally, and via sastra and sadhu/ guru. 

To me anyway, it is very clear that Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas are continuing to provide us with the necessary guidance and direction to make steady progress towards our ultimate goal.

All he is doing really is pointing us to the previous acaryas anyway, so what's the problem? 

I don't have any problems with this siksa at all. In fact, it has been life transforming. For me, I consider both the book, and Uttamasloka prabhu's answers to mine and others' queries, to be excellent siksa.

Whether Uttamasloka prabhu is a 'living bhagavata,' a 'self-realized soul' is not really the whole point of his book, nor this forum. He is providing us with the necessary information to take up raga marga properly, if we do desire. It is very empowering, helping me and others to understand this philosophy more deeply, to actually become Krsna conscious. It is not that Krsna, Lord Caitanya, or the previous acaryas only wanted a few select personalities to become self realized, take up raga marga. It is for everyone:

"Any jiva can acquire the right to become a vraja-vasini when impelled by his innate svabhava and the resolute cultivation of the pertinent abhimana. Only those who possess such an unwavering desire for madhurya-rasa are eligible to become vraja-vasinis. When a person's sadhana complements his ruci, he attains perfection accordingly." Jaiva Dharma

And Uttamasloka is providing exactly that direction - how to perform raganuga sadhana bhakti to complement one's ruci. Really, he has unlocked the box for us. The timing appears right, is ripe, to provide this information in a safe manner. And first, he is clearing up all the misconceptions we all have about the actual process, a big endeavour on its own.

In any case, according to the acaryas' commentaries on Upadesamrta text 5, one of the symptoms of a maha bhagavat is that he is "ever alert to perform manasa seva in asta kaliya lila," so that is one thing to look for in a 'self-realized soul.' By taking up the process as given, we will also be able to benefit from the association of such maha bhagavatas if and when we get their association. At best, we should be performing that mental seva ourselves.

And, if a 'spiritual master' is not 'forever alert to render mental service in asta kaliya lila' then he is not an uttama bhakta, at least according to this commentary:

"The best devotees are those who are devoid of the tendency to blaspheme others and who, being exclusively devoted to Sri Sri Radha Krsna, are forever alert to render service mentally to Their asta kaliya lila. Knowing such devotees to be established in the particular mood of service to Sri Sri Radha Krsna for which one aspires, affectionately disposed towards oneself and the topmost association, one should honour them in all respects by offering prostrated obeisance, making relevant inquiry and rendering service with great affection. One should understand the eminence of Vaisnavas according to this gradation." Upadesmrta Text 5 commentary by Radha Ramana Goswami (who is glorified by SBSST in the same book's commentary).

And regardless, we will still have to take the responsibility to practice the processes of raganuga bhakti as given by the acaryas, whether we are sitting at their feet or not. How much time will we be able to spend with the 'self-realized souls' anyway? How much time can they give us? A genuinely advanced guru will be able to guide a disciple on the path of raganuga bhakti, or direct him/ her to someone who can - suitable siksa, if he has no time for it. I would hope that any spiritual master would direct their disciples to books such as Uttamsloka's to help prepare them to understand and embark upon the path of raganuga bhakti, which is required to go back home, if they personally are not qualified to give that guidance. That will also help them understand exactly what sort of association will benefit them.

Vaidhi bhakti will not take us to Goloka, that is clear. Without raganuga bhakti, we are not really following Rupa Goswami, we cannot be happy, nor get we out of maya. In that case, who can put a value on the contribution of Uttamasloka prabhu's contribution to the general community of devotees?

"Vaidhi bhakti is very slow and raganuga bhakti is very swift. Following it, one swiftly comes to the rasas. By following the path of raga one attains ruci (attachment) in his heart. The followers of Srila Rupa Gosvami follow this path. As long as he engages in raganuga spiritual activities, the soul in the material world is happy. As long as he does not engage in raganuga spiritual activities, the soul in the material world is attracted to the illusions of maya."

"Lord Caitanya taught that the tendencies of the jiva suddenly manifest through the raganuga process. Lord Caitanya has approved of worship in the raga mode (raga marga). If a soul by good fortune gets association with devotees who have the mercy of Gauranga, he will certainly become greedy for the mood of the Vraja vasis. But as long as he does not have such association, he must practice vaidhi bhakti. Just on taking shelter of the lotus feet of Gauranga he enters the path of raga. Those eager for the path of spontaneous attraction first practice raganuga bhakti. In practicing raganuga bhakti the person quickly develops an extremely high qualification. On attaining greed for the mood of the Vraja vasis, no other attraction remains. When that greed arises, the practitioner immediately becomes completely disinterested in sinful action, piety, social duty, neglect of duty, forbidden actions, speculation, and dry renunciation.
Dasa Mula Tattva

We also need to get that association that corresponds to our own innate service mood and desires. One has to find some devotees who of similar sentiment to oneself. We can't remain an island:

"Exchanging love with devotees who are of the same aspiration as oneself and who are affectionate to oneself enhances one’s bhakti. Offering and accepting items, revealing confidential realisations to one another, and serving and accepting food are all activities that increase affection. One should not perform these activities with those of different aspirations in life than one’s own." SBSST Upadesmrta Text 4 commentary.

So we all must find that sanga which is of the same inclination, affectionate to oneself, positive, nourishing, helpful, authoritative, practically useful and enlivening, here or there.

No one, not Uttamasloka prabhu, is denying that direct personal association with maha bhagavata devotee who is of similar sentiment to oneself, is affectionate, etc. (as above) is not the ideal situation. In the absence of that, what to do? Nothing, or prepare oneself, and practice bhakti yoga as prescribed by the acaryas, take their siksa directly? Get siksa from others, from at least madhyamas fixed in raganuga?

I say take up the help as Krsna sends it, in whatever form it comes. Confirm everything internally and via sastra and sadhu. If it lines up, go for it. Start on the path. We don't want to miss the assistance that is given to us on a plate, while we go searching for a 'maha bhagavata' to sit at and hear from. If and when that time comes, we will be able to take full advantage and appreciate so much more.  

However, this book and the contents contained therein, is not for everyone at every given point in time. That is a given.

Your servant,

Vraja Vilasa dasa

Hare Krsna prabhu!

Re this quote:

Pradyumna: Guru-padasrayah. "First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master." Tasmat Krishna- diksadi-siksanam. Tasmat, "from him", Krishna- diksadi-siksanam, "one should take Krishna-Diksa, initiation, and Siksa.

Srila Prabhupada: "Diksa means divya-jnanam ksapayati iti diksa. Which explains the divya-jnana, transcendental, that is diksa. Di, divya, diksanam. diksa. So divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge... If you don't accept a spiritual master, how you'll get transcen... you'll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master."

I would argue that, although we cannot claim to be direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada, we have received 'diksa' by and from Srila Prabhupada (in the sense given above), and are also accepting him as our main siksa guru, and have thus taken full shelter of him, and are continuing on with the faith in the arrangements he is making for us to make progress, of which Uttamasloka's book is a clear sign.

For me, I never left ISKCON for siksa, and had the faith that Krsna would make an arrangement for me within the institution, according to my qualification and desire, as required, which He has done at different times,.

Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Your servant,

Vraja Vilasa dasa