Post by Uttamasloka on Oct 24, 2013 16:01:06 GMT -5
Prisni prabhu: In my book, I have always emphasized that one should approach one's gurus first, but in the absence of such gurus, one should take shelter of the acarayas' teachings in their books. One should study the acaryas' books in either case.
Lal prabhu:
The pramana is the preeminence of the lila itself as emphasized by all the acaryas. We are never told to meditate constantly on the esoteric underpinnings of the lila. We are always instructed to meditate directly on these pastimes as they are delineated in the lila books. We are told to follow the raga, bhava and seva of a Vraja associate. Ramananda Raya spoke to Lord Caitanya (Madhya, chapter 8) about the most esoteric truths and he never mentioned specifically focusing on the esoteric philosophical layers as the primary approach to entering Vraja lila, nor that such understanding was the highest goal.
What is your pramana for this assertion?
Please provide your pramana for this as well. Prema-bhakti-rasa is the goal, not secret esoteric knowledge. Prema cannot exist without accepting Krsna fully in His lila manifestation and in the context of one’s personal relationship with Him.
VCT explains Krsna’s bewilderment in the second half of RVC and it does not concur with your statements. Here are some relevant excerpts, and I advise everyone to read that whole section for the complete explanation:
1. ...Therefore we should not explain it in the latter way. We must accept that just as Krsna is sometimes bewildered in His Dvaraka pastimes, although he is omniscient, similarly by His inconceivable potency He is sometimes omniscient in His Vrindavana pastimes, although He is bewildered.
We must therefore accept the words of Bilvamangala Thakura in Krsna Karnamrta “In all His pastimes the Lord is simultaneously bewildered and omniscient.”
6. The next question is: Did Krsna, while playing humanlike pastimes as the son of Nanda in Vrindavana, know He is God in the same way as He knew it as the son of Vasudeva in Dvaraka, or not?
If you say “yes” then I say He would not have been able to cry tears of fear while He was being bound with ropes by Mother Yashoda. It does not look good on learned devotees to explain that He was simply pretending to be afraid, and that’s why He was crying tears. Only a less intelligent society would have given such an explanation.
...And if you say “all right, so Krsna did not know that He is God, but then by whom or what was His eternally perfect blissful omniscience covered over?” Then I say: it is the essence of Krsna's cit or knowledge potency named prema, or love of God, that covers him over, making Him forget His actual identity.
Although He is ecstasy personified, for the sake of increasing His own ecstasy, just as avidya, or the ignorance potency of Maya keeps all the living beings bound up in the material world, making them experience only suffering, the transcendental energy yogamaya covers over the God-knowledge of Krsna's transcendental associates in Vrindavana like Mother Yashoda, making them experience His all-sweet humanlike pastimes.
There can be no fault in prema covering over His knowledge of His svarupa. Just as ignorance binds up the conditioned souls with the ropes of mine-ness, giving them simply misery and making them prisoners bound with ropes and chains that give them much pain, so also is the body of a respectable person bound by valuable pleasure-giving clothes and a turban and so on.
In the same way that the conditioned soul’s ignorance leads to his misery, Krsna's ignorance makes Him very happy, because He is controlled by love. Krsna enjoys great happiness being overcome with prema, just as a honeybee feels very happy being covered over in the whorl of a lotus. Therefore it is said, “O Lord! Don’t leave the lotus like hearts of Your devotees!” and, “the devotees have bound Your lotus feet with the ropes of their love.”
...Although Srimati Radharani is Krsna's very own pleasure potency, and Krsna also belongs to Srimati Radharani, still one must meditate upon Sri Sri Radha Krsna within Their pastimes, never only upon Them without Their pastimes.
The difference is that I already acknowledged the esoteric understanding of the lila and I have also shown that the lila, as it is displayed, is the highest realization and goal for jivas. Therefore, we must understand the lila in the very context of our desired participation, which is being under the jurisdiction of yoga-maya with a particular self-conception (abhimana), immersed in the deep prema of our relationship with Krsna. There is nothing higher to be obtained or realize than this, unless you can provide substantial proof otherwise.
Lal prabhu:
Uttama, you wrote
“These tattvas that you've presented are the foundational understandings of the meaning and purpose of Vraja-lila. However, these truths remain eternally hidden in the background and what takes precedence is the lila itself, which supersedes all other considerations. It is the lila which exists eternally and at no time do things return to their root level foundational realities.”
I disagree that they remain hidden for everyone all of the time. Do you have any pramana?
“These tattvas that you've presented are the foundational understandings of the meaning and purpose of Vraja-lila. However, these truths remain eternally hidden in the background and what takes precedence is the lila itself, which supersedes all other considerations. It is the lila which exists eternally and at no time do things return to their root level foundational realities.”
I disagree that they remain hidden for everyone all of the time. Do you have any pramana?
The pramana is the preeminence of the lila itself as emphasized by all the acaryas. We are never told to meditate constantly on the esoteric underpinnings of the lila. We are always instructed to meditate directly on these pastimes as they are delineated in the lila books. We are told to follow the raga, bhava and seva of a Vraja associate. Ramananda Raya spoke to Lord Caitanya (Madhya, chapter 8) about the most esoteric truths and he never mentioned specifically focusing on the esoteric philosophical layers as the primary approach to entering Vraja lila, nor that such understanding was the highest goal.
The scenario you described goes like this:
1. The purpose of lila is rasa, i.e. tasting the enjoyment of relationships (bhava)
2. In order to perfect rasa the participants must be delusional.
3. Yoga-maya even deludes Krishna.
The problems I have with that understanding of Gaudiya siddhanta:
1. If the purpose is to taste rasa from bhava (relationships), if the relationships are not what they appear to be from the external vision, i.e. Radha, Krishna, and the various gopis, queens, etc., all being the same person - how can there be rasa between them when there is no real relationship - since they are the same person in different forms? There can be no real rasa since the relationship isn't actually real, it's one person talking to himself/herself which precludes actual bhava and therefore rasa. There has to be a metaphoric meaning otherwise it makes no sense that the purpose of lila is God trying to enjoy a relationship with himself. For vaidhi bhaktas it's unnecessary to get into these ontological details since they are focused on vaidhi sadhana, but a raganuga bhakta needs to move beyond their understanding in order to truly understand rasa lila.
1. The purpose of lila is rasa, i.e. tasting the enjoyment of relationships (bhava)
2. In order to perfect rasa the participants must be delusional.
3. Yoga-maya even deludes Krishna.
The problems I have with that understanding of Gaudiya siddhanta:
1. If the purpose is to taste rasa from bhava (relationships), if the relationships are not what they appear to be from the external vision, i.e. Radha, Krishna, and the various gopis, queens, etc., all being the same person - how can there be rasa between them when there is no real relationship - since they are the same person in different forms? There can be no real rasa since the relationship isn't actually real, it's one person talking to himself/herself which precludes actual bhava and therefore rasa. There has to be a metaphoric meaning otherwise it makes no sense that the purpose of lila is God trying to enjoy a relationship with himself. For vaidhi bhaktas it's unnecessary to get into these ontological details since they are focused on vaidhi sadhana, but a raganuga bhakta needs to move beyond their understanding in order to truly understand rasa lila.
What is your pramana for this assertion?
2. The idea that to enjoy rasa you must be delusional sounds counterintuitive on the face of it. That belief is due to taking metaphoric teachings on lila too literally, which is fine for vaidhi bhaktas as it helps deal with the contradiction above. But raganuga bhaktas need to learn to let go of certain previous illogical conceptions, since it really doesn't make sense that the highest realm of ecstasy for Krishna would be to live in delusion playing with expansions of himself. It isn't. The higher conception of lila is really about Krishna enjoying rasa with actual *other people.* The rasa displayed in rasa shastra is meant to be educational for the jiva, it's not a literal guide to Goloka. On the literal level it is meant for vaidhi bhaktas since they aren't ready to move into bhava and rasa, but for raganuga bhaktas, you need to move beyond the literal, since it makes little sense if looked at closely.
Please provide your pramana for this as well. Prema-bhakti-rasa is the goal, not secret esoteric knowledge. Prema cannot exist without accepting Krsna fully in His lila manifestation and in the context of one’s personal relationship with Him.
3. Yoga-maya is not a separate entity from Krishna, nothing is a separate entity from Krishna. Bhaktivinoda teaches us in Jaiva Dharma:
“Sakti cannot exist independent of the object from which it originates. We must first accept the existence of an object that possesses full spiritual consciousness, otherwise accepting sakti by itself is like dreaming of a flower in the sky. The commentary on Vedanta states, sakti-saktimator abhedah:
"There is no difference between the potency and the possessor of potency."
…
Yogamaya is what Krishna uses to delude jivas, the idea of yogamaya being able to literally delude Krishna is a mistaken ideology which comes from taking esoteric teachings too literally. Logically, yogamaya cannot delude Krishna because Krishna is the all-pervading supreme being, he is present in every heart and ruling the universe, and engaged in countless lilas. What does it mean to say that Krishna is deluded by yogamaya if he is and in control of yogamaya, and controls the universe and everyone and everything in it?
It cannot be taken literally, it is a metaphoric teaching to say that Krishna is influenced by yogamaya to forget the truth. Nothing can think or act without Krishna manifesting that power for them (BG 3.27 , 9.10 , 13.30 , 15.15 , 18.59-61). Krishna cannot be deluded otherwise everything would cease to function, so there has to be a metaphoric meaning to the idea of Krishna and his expansions being under yogamaya. But for vaidhi bhaktas it is enough for them to believe the literal teaching. Raganuga bhaktas need to accept that their previous conceptions based upon a literal reading of Gaudiya siddhanta is not necessarily all there is to understand. If they can understand that, then they are ready to move into higher realms.
“Sakti cannot exist independent of the object from which it originates. We must first accept the existence of an object that possesses full spiritual consciousness, otherwise accepting sakti by itself is like dreaming of a flower in the sky. The commentary on Vedanta states, sakti-saktimator abhedah:
"There is no difference between the potency and the possessor of potency."
…
Yogamaya is what Krishna uses to delude jivas, the idea of yogamaya being able to literally delude Krishna is a mistaken ideology which comes from taking esoteric teachings too literally. Logically, yogamaya cannot delude Krishna because Krishna is the all-pervading supreme being, he is present in every heart and ruling the universe, and engaged in countless lilas. What does it mean to say that Krishna is deluded by yogamaya if he is and in control of yogamaya, and controls the universe and everyone and everything in it?
It cannot be taken literally, it is a metaphoric teaching to say that Krishna is influenced by yogamaya to forget the truth. Nothing can think or act without Krishna manifesting that power for them (BG 3.27 , 9.10 , 13.30 , 15.15 , 18.59-61). Krishna cannot be deluded otherwise everything would cease to function, so there has to be a metaphoric meaning to the idea of Krishna and his expansions being under yogamaya. But for vaidhi bhaktas it is enough for them to believe the literal teaching. Raganuga bhaktas need to accept that their previous conceptions based upon a literal reading of Gaudiya siddhanta is not necessarily all there is to understand. If they can understand that, then they are ready to move into higher realms.
VCT explains Krsna’s bewilderment in the second half of RVC and it does not concur with your statements. Here are some relevant excerpts, and I advise everyone to read that whole section for the complete explanation:
1. ...Therefore we should not explain it in the latter way. We must accept that just as Krsna is sometimes bewildered in His Dvaraka pastimes, although he is omniscient, similarly by His inconceivable potency He is sometimes omniscient in His Vrindavana pastimes, although He is bewildered.
We must therefore accept the words of Bilvamangala Thakura in Krsna Karnamrta “In all His pastimes the Lord is simultaneously bewildered and omniscient.”
6. The next question is: Did Krsna, while playing humanlike pastimes as the son of Nanda in Vrindavana, know He is God in the same way as He knew it as the son of Vasudeva in Dvaraka, or not?
If you say “yes” then I say He would not have been able to cry tears of fear while He was being bound with ropes by Mother Yashoda. It does not look good on learned devotees to explain that He was simply pretending to be afraid, and that’s why He was crying tears. Only a less intelligent society would have given such an explanation.
...And if you say “all right, so Krsna did not know that He is God, but then by whom or what was His eternally perfect blissful omniscience covered over?” Then I say: it is the essence of Krsna's cit or knowledge potency named prema, or love of God, that covers him over, making Him forget His actual identity.
Although He is ecstasy personified, for the sake of increasing His own ecstasy, just as avidya, or the ignorance potency of Maya keeps all the living beings bound up in the material world, making them experience only suffering, the transcendental energy yogamaya covers over the God-knowledge of Krsna's transcendental associates in Vrindavana like Mother Yashoda, making them experience His all-sweet humanlike pastimes.
There can be no fault in prema covering over His knowledge of His svarupa. Just as ignorance binds up the conditioned souls with the ropes of mine-ness, giving them simply misery and making them prisoners bound with ropes and chains that give them much pain, so also is the body of a respectable person bound by valuable pleasure-giving clothes and a turban and so on.
In the same way that the conditioned soul’s ignorance leads to his misery, Krsna's ignorance makes Him very happy, because He is controlled by love. Krsna enjoys great happiness being overcome with prema, just as a honeybee feels very happy being covered over in the whorl of a lotus. Therefore it is said, “O Lord! Don’t leave the lotus like hearts of Your devotees!” and, “the devotees have bound Your lotus feet with the ropes of their love.”
...Although Srimati Radharani is Krsna's very own pleasure potency, and Krsna also belongs to Srimati Radharani, still one must meditate upon Sri Sri Radha Krsna within Their pastimes, never only upon Them without Their pastimes.
”Thus, my statements regarding the manjaris' self-conception of themselves as being very young and thus not so qualified to satisfy Krsna, is not based on a superficial or literal understanding of the lila, rather, it is supported by an understanding that takes all of the above facts into consideration.”
You based that understanding on a literal understanding of what was written, i.e. manjaris are younger than sakhis, with more inhibition towards Krishna than older sakhis, deluded by yogamaya for eternity into believing that. How is your understanding not a literal take on what is written? What is different in what you wrote than the literal idea of manjaris being eternally with the same temperament of a young inexperienced girl?
You based that understanding on a literal understanding of what was written, i.e. manjaris are younger than sakhis, with more inhibition towards Krishna than older sakhis, deluded by yogamaya for eternity into believing that. How is your understanding not a literal take on what is written? What is different in what you wrote than the literal idea of manjaris being eternally with the same temperament of a young inexperienced girl?
The difference is that I already acknowledged the esoteric understanding of the lila and I have also shown that the lila, as it is displayed, is the highest realization and goal for jivas. Therefore, we must understand the lila in the very context of our desired participation, which is being under the jurisdiction of yoga-maya with a particular self-conception (abhimana), immersed in the deep prema of our relationship with Krsna. There is nothing higher to be obtained or realize than this, unless you can provide substantial proof otherwise.