PP:
I have great respect for you and all your wonderful service.
US:
I would really like to believe that you are being sincere with this statement, but having read your whole eMail, I am not so sure and I am very concerned about your real motives as you will soon see.
PP:
So I hope that you can consider me your servant and (albeit) junior friend in the midst of this discussion.
US:
There would be great value for each of us and to the Vaisnava community if we could be honest and good friends, but we'll first have to work out some serious issues that have been raised in your responses.
PP:
Let's start with something easy today. You wrote (page 50):
"That by which the desire for enjoyment attains oneness with rati is called samartha-rati. That rati attains a special status, inconceivably superior to sadharani-rati (the queens of Dvaraka) and samanjasa-rati (Kubja), because by its very nature it controls Krsna completely. "
Note here that sadharani-rati refers to Kubja, not the queens of Dväraka. And samanjasa-rati refers to the Queens of Dvaraka not Kubja.
Two mistakes accepted I presume? Then we're good to go.
US:
Thanks for pointing this out. It was an editorial oversight. I accidentally got them flipped around. I have correctly defined sadharani-rati and samanjasa-rati when they were mentioned in other parts of my book, ie: chapter 6 and the chart, Rati & Prema. This was an accidental mistake of minor proportions. It has been corrected.
PP:
In UN, the descriptions of the four stages of kaisora indicate a gradual development and increase of amorous desires and inclinations. That is a fact. All of the gopis in Vraja are not exactly the same in their amorous desires. The whole point of UN is to show that variegated diversity on all levels. As you know, there are even classifications of the level and quality of the sakhis' prema, as kanistha, madhyama, and uttama.
There is a description in UN of the gradual increase in amorous desires for NAYIKAS, NAYIKA PRAYA, SAKHI-PRAYA, and DVI-SAMA. Nowhere in UN is it stated that there is the development of any desire for intimacy with Sri Krsna among NITYA SAKHIS. In fact the opposite is stated in several places. For example:
"The first type, the parama-prestha-sakhis such as Lalita, sometimes desire direct bodily union with Krsna on the insistence of their yuthesvari. The latter type, the nitya-sakhis like Kasturi, never desire to direct bodily union with Krsna. (UN 2.15 -VCT)
Knowing that Krsna has less greed for them and thinking they cannot help Krsna by the above method, the second type of sakhi arranges by her efforts for their leader and her sakhis, who have great saubhägya to meet with Krsna. They desire to please the leader. They do not desire to be nayikas. (UN 8.84 -VCT)
Yet to say "Well, it's because they are young" is to suggest they have an undeveloped desire......actually they have no desire at all, and never will.
US:
First of all, I did not say "because they are young". I merely said that their young age is a "contributing factor", which is absolutely confirmed in UN, notwithstanding your quotes which show other layers of consideration. All of these factors are at work, not just the ones you've stated. No such distinctions are made in UN, nor is there any indication that age is absolutely not one of many factors in the overall disposition of the nitya-sakhis or any other sakhis.
The mugdha is young, inexperienced in love, uncooperative in love, dependent on sakhis, shy in love affairs with covered actions, weeps after her lover commits offense, does not reply to the lover with unkind words, and avoids pride. UN, 5.14
Visvanatha from UN 5.27:
The madhya has equal amounts of shyness and desire. The mugdha has more shyness and less desire. The pragalbha has less shyness and more desire. The mugdha has slight youth, the madhya has medium youth and the pragalbha has full youth. The mugdha is not bold, the madhya has slight boldness and the pragalbha has full boldness. Moha means fainting because of bliss, arising with the appearance of strong desire. The phrase mohanta-surataksama means that it is possible that the madhya faints and then has her love affair for a moment. She cannot faint afterwards. The mugdha has bliss only because of having very little desire. She does not faint. It is not possible because she has little strength even for exchanges of love. UN, 5.27 commentary.
So clearly VCT indicates that the differences in desire and shyness have some basis in age. And yes, I understand that mugdha's are not all manjaris, but most, if not all, manjaris are very young and in the first two stages of kaisora, and many of them clearly exhibit the characteristics of mugdhas. There is no denying that. Thus these descriptions, which are age-based, also apply to them to a certain degree. I never said age was a primary or overriding factor - I said it was a "contributing factor" and it most certainly is.
PP:
Your theory that the manjaris do not aspire for intimacy with Sri Krsna because of their age implies that if they grew older they would eventually develop the desire.
US:
No it doesn't imply that at all. And once again I did not state that age was a primary factor. You're making mountains out of mole hills by obsessing on this one point. The lila's sweetness is partially based on the fact that there are human-like elements involved. The gopis really believe that they are cheating on their husbands and they have that self-conception (abhimana), even though there are deeper level of understandings to be known. Similarly, on an external level, the manjaris are engaged in the role of young maidservants who are typically less experienced in amorous affairs as described above in UN. That is one of many "elements" of their eternal self-conception, in keeping with the human-like aspects of the lila.
PP:
Such a concept is contrary to the very core principles of nitya-sakhi-bhava in UN.
US:
Well, it's your concept not mine. You've made this issue a straw-man argument by mischaracterizing and over emphasizing the age component in a way that I did not do in my book (one sentence). And the section on manjaris in my book was not intended as an exhaustive study of manjaris and their multi-faceted natures. It was specifically written to focus on certain predominant conceptions regarding manjaris and to explore the sastric evidence behind those ideas.
PP:
Why can't you just accept that they are different from the other gopis in this regard.
US:
I already have accepted that and have said so in my book. You have unreasonably tried to make this a bigger issue than it is. You have misunderstood my statements and intentions and have thus erroneously used that to give your arguments more weight than they would have otherwise. For me to say that the manjaris' young ages are a "contributing factor" in their lack of desire for amorous union is not at all in contradiction to UN, rather it is fully in sync with it as I have shown above.
PP:
Furthermore, there are many sakhis who meet with Sri Krsna directly such as the vara-sakhis, many of whom are only 12, younger than the manjaris (according the Sri Radha Krsna Ganoddesadipika). So the manjaris' age is not a disqualification for nayikatva (heroine hood).
US:
I never said it was. I actually said that sometimes the manjaris do have amorous encounters with Krsna and you confirmed that in your conversation with Syama dasa.
PP:
You have tried to pass off the fact that Sri Krsna and the gopis were 8 and younger respectively during the Rasa-lila as irrelevant because it was Bhauma-lila.
US:
No I didn't say it was irrelevant. Please stop distorting my statements to suit your arguments. I said it was distinct from aprakata-lila in that particular way, and thus did not support your argument in that regard.
PP:
But Sri Krsna and the gopis in nitya lila make no such distinctions between prakata and aprakata-lila. If they did their bhava would become aisvarya and lose the human-like relationship. The evidence is in VCT's Sri Krsna Bhavanamrta, where Radhika admits to speaking the verse ,"sincanga nas tvadadharamrta purakena" (10.29.35) during that first Rasa-lila. So it is clear that in nitya-lila, the gopis remember the first Rasa-lila which occurred when they were less than 8 years old. Thus it is a massive stretch of the imagination to suggest that the manjaris have no desire for intimacy with Sri Krsna because they are ONLY 13 years old. If by the time a gopi is 13 she has no desire, she never will. You cannot say, it's just underdeveloped due to age.
US:
I didn't say that, VCT and RG said it in UN as I quoted above. And once again I didn't say it was only due to age. Do you see how your argument is completely based on the distorted version you have mischaracterized and not on what my statement was intended to convey? When you have to distort my statements like that to make your point stick, it makes your position very weak if not moot.
PP:
For you to say that age cannot possibly be a contributing factor is not in harmony with the details presented in UN. I agree that it is not stated directly as such in UN,
There is a reason why your theory has never been stated by any acarya ever in the history of our sampradaya.
US:
You are wrong. It is stated above in UN and I will give a quote later on to further confirm that.
PP:
I have already shown that it is stated several times in UN that nitya-sakhis never want to be Nayikas. So my assertion is in perfect harmony with UN. It is your idea which is contrary to UN.
US:
It is your mischaracterization of my statement that is contrary, which means your argument has no basis, because I never made that point in the way you've stated.
PP:
Go back and take another look at the context of the discussion about age in UN. All the descriptions about the development of desire in accordance with age are in the chapter 5 entitled NAYIKA BHEDA PRAKARANAM - "different types of Nayika". Nitya sakhis are the only gopis who never aspire for nayikatva. Therefore, what is mentioned in regard to the development of the intensity of desire to unite with Sri Krsna at various ages does not apply to nitya sakhis. You have come up with a misconception by mistakenly assuming chapter five refers to nitya sakhis when it is exclusively for nayikas, nayika-praya, dvi-sama, and sakhi-praya.
US:
No I have not made that mistake. I have used those examples simply to show that age is a valid factor to consider for a full understanding of the self-conceptions of the various sakhis, including the nitya-sakhis.
PP:
The reasons given in UN for the manjaris' reluctance include (but are not limited to) their different type of prema, saundarya, saubhagya, vaidagdhya, considering themselves incapable of fully satisfying Krsna by themselves, deference out of respect to more qualified sakhis, deriving greater satisfaction from watching Radhika's meeting with Krsna than their own, and also the fact that they are dasis of the senior members of their group because those more significant sakhis belong to a higher nobility or higher subcaste among the vaisya-caste. On the other hand, age is not mentioned anywhere.
US:
OK, let's look at that verse and commentary.
Among the apeksika-laghus, some have a slight desire to be a nayika. Others do not desire this, and instead simply desire the happiness of being a sakhi. UN, 8.84
Visvanatha:
Among the three types of apeksika-laghus some have a slight insistence to be a nayika. But this is always with the compliance of the group leader. Eagerness has two types: to fulfill the desires of the lover and to express affection for one’s sakhis. There are two types of sakhis: those whose limbs are greatly desired by Krsna and those whose limbs are not greatly desired by Krsna.
The first type has eagerness to fulfill the desires of Krsna and the second type has eagerness to express affection for her sakhis. “We will engage ourselves in this way because it is impossible for a young girl to completely satisfy Krsna’s desires for love. We will assist her.” In this way the first type acts as nayikas with a slight eagerness.
So as I stated above, it is part of the nitya-sakhis abhimana that their young age is a contributing factor. What more proof is needed? This is conclusive and fully supportive of my statement. It is a "contributing factor" in their own self-conception as young girls, notwithstanding other more esoteric factors.
PP:
Good luck finding all the above points in your "excellent' translation.
US:
I have such good luck and have quoted it above. Now let's stop for a second to examine your unwarranted sarcasm and offensive insulting remark aimed at my Godbrother Bhanu Swami's translation of UN, because that's exactly what you've done here. Why are you resorting to such uncalled for offensive behavior towards a great Vaisnava who has given us many wonderful translations of the acaryas' books? What purpose is served by such statements, which reveal an immature and arrogant attitude? Your offense is duly noted.
PP:
I guess there must be some difference between reading and hearing after all.
US:
There is clearly no difference between the uncalled for arrogance of your insult to Bhanu Swami and the implied arrogant insult towards me as only being qualified to 'read' these books but not to enter into a deeper realized understanding of these teachings. And you are indirectly insulting my guru by implying that he cannot, or has not, blessed me with the adhikara to understand these things. You are treading on thin ice prabhu and your bhakti creeper is at stake. Be very careful with your insulting and offensive insinuations.
PP:
I will believe you are actually associating with VCT if you can find the references for all the above points in the translation you are working with.
US:
I just did. So believe it. And let's be very clear about this: what you believe about me is of no consequence to me. You have nothing to do with my relationship with Krsna or the acaryas and you never will. And ironically, you are revealing very telling facts about your own adhikara and understanding of these topics.
PP:
But the implications are indicative upon studying the text and commentaries. The younger manjaris' amorous inclinations are not at all like those sakhis at the purna stage of kaisora, and the difference is understood to have at least some basis in their ages.
The "difference is understood to have some basis in their ages" ....understood by whom?
US:
By VCT for one. He stated it above: “We will engage ourselves in this way because it is impossible for a young girl to completely satisfy Krsna’s desires for love. We will assist her.”
PP:
Those gopis who have inclination to be nayikas had that inclination from the beginning of kaisora. They wanted to be nayikas when they were the same age as the manjaris. So why compare manjaris to sakhis at the purna stage? Compare them at the same age and you can see that they are entirely different.
US:
I haven't argued against that point. I have proven conclusively that the various sakhis' self-conceptions are partially due to their ages - one of many factors, but nonetheless, a valid factor, as confirmed by VCT and RG.
PP:
Besides, it was just one sentence in my book and not a major point that I tried to stress.
It may be just one sentence, but it is a major point because it reveals your own understanding of manjari-bhava is incorrect.
US:
No, it is NOT a major point. You are desperately trying, and failing, to make this point a mountain out of a molehill because otherwise, you have no basis for making such critical statements in your attempt to discredit my book. And to reiterate, that section on manjaris was not intended as a detailed analysis of their unique positions. It was a review of commonly held ideas about them and the sastric basis for these ideas. I stated that clearly. And you don't know the full extent of my understanding of manjaris, because I have not presented it completely in my book.
PP:
And since you are promoting the (im)possibility of priya-sakhi bhava in our rupanuga sampradaya, it's quite important that you should be aware first that you have misconceptions about manjari bhava.
US:
To the contrary, I have proven that it is you who have misconceptions about my understanding. You have distorted my statements and over-inflated them to create a straw-man argument, and even then, I have now proven you wrong. So although you have stated many true facts, you have not proven my statement to be incorrect.
And I look forward to hearing your proof that priya-sakhi bhava is impossible, in direct contradiction to VCT's statements from UN.
PP:
Could it be that your disinterest in manjari-bhava is actually based on a misunderstanding of what manjari-bhava actually is?
US:
Nope. Not at all. Not even close. I understand it very well. Could it be that your misunderstanding of what I wrote is based on your desire to find anything you can to trash my book, even to the point of exaggerating and distorting what I wrote?
PP:
You opine that manjaris are younger than all the other nayikas, bewildered, naive, immature, giggly, undeveloped physically and emotionally.
US:
Here you go again, putting words in my mouth/book that were not there and exaggerating, to prop up your weak position. I never said "bewildered" or "naive". I said they were typically shy and innocent young girls which is not contradicted by the acaryas, and similar descriptions are given in the lila books. And to reiterate, that section in my book was not meant to be a comprehensive analysis of the entire scope of manjari-bhava.
PP:
However, VCT has stated that each one of the manjaris is qualified to be a Yuthesvari:
"Each line on these manjaris' toes defeats the bright splendor of lightning. They are cleverness personified and although they are qualified to be group leaders of gopis (yuthesvaris) they have no taste for this, but are always immersed in the nectar ocean of Shri Radhika's service."
(VCT Krsna Bhavanamrta Ch.3.1)
US:
I'm fully aware of that quote. Such statements are made because it may not be entirely evident simply by reading the lilas where one may not derive that conclusion based on their dispositions and activities as described within the lila books. We are past this issue now.
PP:
I think that you have to rethink your whole concept of manjari-bhava.
US:
I'm fully open to learning more and more and always have been. I've learned quite a bit from your presentation here, but ironically, not exactly what you may have intended to convey.
PP:
Better still, why not actually follow Jaiva Dharma and take shelter of a bhajan siksha guru like Vijaya Kumar and Vrajanatha did.
US:
I would if I could find someone with whom I am compatible and who is compassionate and genuinely realized and willing to instruct me personally, as is recommended by our acaryas. Until Krsna directs me to such a person, I have taken full shelter of my guru, the acaryas (my siksa-gurus) and Caita-guru, which is 100% approved by all acaryas and there is no deficiency in that position. I have given the quote in my first reply that confirms my position as being fully valid.
PP:
“And I already said I would make adjustments to that sentence.”
How do you adjust a statement which is wrong?
US:
I've already proven it was not wrong in the ways you attempted to prove. It's now time for you to adjust your understanding.
PP:
Especially when you are still trying to argue the point. Maybe you could show me what the new sentence looks like. Point taken. Let's move on.
I will believe the point is taken when I see the new version of the sentence in question. ie when the age factor related to manjaris' disinclination to direct sambhoga-rasa is removed from the text entirely.
US:
Here is the new sentence:
The fact that most of them are very young (under 14) is also a contributing factor.
I just took out the pre-adolescent part. The rest of my statement stands and I have given ample proof above to support it. I don't accept your convoluted attempts to over inflate this point. Thanks for helping me come to a better understanding.
PP:
........moving on
"In reality, the only sravana-dasa of this process is the confidential conversation between guru and disciple." (JD BVT)
You cannot wiggle out of this direct statement of BVT. Sravana dasa takes place in direct association with the bhajan siksha guru. This is unavoidable reality.
Or as your gurudeva put it:
"In this way, after developing a taste for such things, one should try to live in Vrndavan and pass his time constantly remembering Krsna's name, fame, pastimes and qualities under the direction and protection of an expert devotee. This is the sum and substance of all instruction regarding the cultivation of devotional service." (Srila Prabhupada NOI v8)
Your book attempts to dispense with the indispensable and thus should itself be dispensed.
US:
Well this is a very interesting development and quite a revelation. So now it has become very clear what your true agenda is after all. In your first eMail you stated:
"Reading can never be sravanam at its best. And that really sums up the root problem with the whole book. It appears that the author has not heard the explanation of all the high level books he is quoting from a realized vaisnava."
In spite of your token obeisances and so-called humility at the beginning of each eMail, you are clearly trying to build a case to trash my entire book based on your misperceived notions of my qualifications and trumped up "philosophical errors". That is your agenda pure and simple and this second statement, "and thus should itself be dispensed" makes it absolutely clear. You misinterpreted one statement and then you want to use that as the basis for "dispensing my entire book"? What a disgraceful thing for you to say and try to do.
You have no intention of helping me correct any valid mistakes to improve my book as a genuine friendly Vaisnava would do. You want to stop people from reading it because according to you it has sahajiya nonsense in it and "the author" (you couldn't even address me directly) is not qualified, and so on. Your statements make this blatantly obvious.
You know Prem, I shared your eMails with a number of my confidential associates (some who know you, but most don't) to get their unbiased feedback and philosophical input, and every single one of them independently said that the tone of your statements was condescending, mean-spiried, arrogant, puffed up false pride, enviousness, egotistical, and even anger. 80% of your eMail was in bold text, which is a form of shouting like using all caps. This is all very telling and reveals very serious issues regarding your motives and character.
Is this the way you want other devotees to perceive you? I would hope not. But the fact is that's how you're coming across loud and clear. And many others have confirmed that, in many cases, this is the general perception of your dealings with others, including those in your own guru's camp. Yes, you are a great speaker and you know a lot of sastra, etc, but that's not everything. The qualities you have exhibited in your dealings with me here and the fact that Krsna has made you reveal your true motives for doing so are very serious concerns for me.
It's time for you to look deep inside your heart and come to terms with why so many devotees perceive you as having excessive ego-based pride, condescending arrogance, offensiveness, envy and a mean-spirited negative disposition towards me and most likely others. Do not make the foolish mistake of negating the gravity of my statements, by mistakenly thinking that I am envious of you or just fault finding. I assure you I am not. I am acting solely out of genuine compassion for your own well-being and benefit.
Now I understand without any doubt that you are telling people these things to denigrate my book so they will not read it. You did precisely that with Mahanidhi Swami, as I learned directly from one of his disciples. Only Krsna knows how many others have been poisoned by your negativity and ill-motivated agenda. I warned you not to do this, but it is clear from your statements and attitude that you have done so and will continue to do so.
You have crossed a big line Prem and I'm calling you out on it. Because you are determined to destroy my most important life's work and service, I am now going to take this discussion public for everyone in the Vaisnava world to observe and comment upon. You are publicly trashing my book and your only motive is to stop people from reading it, which directly denigrates me, so now you will have to defend your positions against me in public on my book forum.
I'm going to publish our eMail exchanges for everyone to read and decide for themselves. For you to do this to me and my book is a suicide mission, both spiritually and otherwise. But you have brought this upon yourself and now you will have to deal with the consequences.
Now let's review things so far. Besides two minor errors regarding rupanugas and sadharani-rati and samanjasa-rati, I have already shown that the other points you've made are complete misunderstandings of what I've actually written, and in some cases you have completely misrepresented what I wrote. In other words they are useless straw-man arguments. So far you aren't doing very well to validate jumping to the ridiculous conclusions that these are the "root problem with the whole book" and that my book should "thus itself be dispensed". In fact, so far you have failed miserably and everyone will see that clearly.
It can only be envy that prevents you from seeing the great benefit my book is providing to devotees. You argued that a living guru is the best and I stated that in my book repeatedly and didn't once deny it. But in the absence of that arrangement, the next best thing is to read the books of the acaryas and discuss them with other like-minded Vaisnavas, preferably those who are more advanced. This is absolutely part of the recommended process of sravanam. Reading the acaryas' books IS also hearing from realized souls directly (vani), otherwise my gurus' books and your guru's books are all useless and have no value. For you to argue otherwise is intellectually dishonest and elitist.
Any advanced siksa guru is going to require their students to read these essential books in any case, and that must be done first before any meaningful instructions on these esoteric matters can begin. And devotees must also read these books so they have a good foundational understanding of what to expect from a qualified siksa guru and to determine who is actually qualified to give siksa on these matters. In that sense also, my book provides a very valuable service.
How many devotees have read these important books? How many will? I say that probably 95% have not done so and may never be motivated to do it. My book provides an unprecedented summary study of these major books of our most prominent acaryas, presented systematically in an easily assimilated form, and with solid logic and reasoning. This is a fact.
No other contemporary Vaisnava literature has brought together all of this information in one place like I have in my book. It has inspired many devotees to now read these books of the acaryas to expand their understanding of this essential foundational knowledge. It has transformed the lives and sadhana/bhajan of many devotees in the most profound ways and you are tying to flush it down the toilet as being completely bogus.
I'll tell you right now that in spite of some errors that may be there, my book presents 100% rock solid tattva and siddhanta and I stand by that and will defend it vigorously in public. I am fully prepared to challenge you publicly to try to prove otherwise. Bring on your other 20 points and let's put them to the test. I am not in the least intimidated by your so-called sastric knowledge, especially now seeing your weak and false arguments. So far, you are failing and have only pointed out minor issues that are no basis for dismissing my entire book.
PP:
Vijaya: When is one’s sravana-dasä considered completed?
Gosvämi: One’s sravana-dasa is completed when one realizes the eternality of krsna-lila.
In your opinion, sravana-dasa and varana-dasa are completed in the stage of nistha. But here Srila BVT clearly states that sravana dasa is not complete until one realizes (anubhava) the eternality (nityata) of the lila. In the stage of nistha there is no realization of lila, not even of rupa, guna and parikara, what to speak of lila.
US:
BVT does not mean full realization of the eternality of the lila. Don't be ridiculous. That is not his intended meaning. That full realization happens in asakti and more completely at the stage of bhava. Neither Vijaya nor Vrajanatha realized it as one does at the stage of bhava. If you read that entire section before and after the intended meaning is absolutely clear. Your interpretation is completely wrong and it makes no sense in the larger context of these chapters of JD.
PP:
The key to understanding the main apasiddhanta in your presentation of raga-marg is as follows: Your misconception has arisen because when you see VCT explain degrees of smarana in MK you think that the word smarana=smarana-dasa. Well, it doesn't any more than every time we see the word sravana, it must mean sravana-dasa (hearing ekadasa-bhava). You then go on to superimpose the panca-dasas onto the stages of bhakti (adau sraddha etc) based on misconstruing smarana for smarana-dasa, with the effect of "proving" that manasika-seva in siddha deha can start from nistha.
US:
There is no apasiddhanta whatsoever in my book. Did you not read what I wrote in my first eMail response about siddha-deha meditations? Apparently not. Why have you ignored that? You have a vast supply of straw for your arguments, but it's going to run out eventually. I NEVER SAID that manasika-seva in siddha-deha can start from nistha. STOP DISTORTING WHAT I WROTE AND DEAL WITH THE FACTS! This is intellectual dishonesty and is unacceptable.
And the fact is that the five stages described by VCT are absolutely equivalent to the five stages of smarana-dasa. What else could they possibly be? They are not alternate concurrent stages. Do you not see the absurdity of your statements? He delineated them and matched them to the stages of progress and they perfectly map with sravana-dasa. JG, VCT and BVT all describe the same five stages of progressive remembrance and they all end in the same way - samadhi. They are not different as anyone can see and they were all presented in the context of raganuga-sadhana and bhajana.
PP:
This conclusion is typical sahajiya siddhanta. Don't get offended. It's nothing personal. Sahajiya is just a technical term for a person who recommends meditation on service in the siddha-deha before it awakens naturally the stage of asakti.
US:
What is the term used to describe a person who continually and intentionally distorts the words of another Vaisnava and then uses such distorted representations to offensively disparage that Vaisnava and his service? What shall we call such a person?
And saying what I presented is sahajiya is totally personal. Are you kidding me? However, I'm becoming less offended because through our exchange I can now see clearly that your so-called sastric knowledge and understanding is much less deep than your ego would have you believe. I don't care how many advanced devotees you've heard from, your words are revealing your true adhikara and character.
And I can't help but think that this might have something to do with offenses you have committed against my guru Srila Prabhupada. I have personally heard from several fellow disciples direct evidence of statements you have made in the past that were clearly offensive to Srila Prabhupada. Perhaps you didn't intend to be offensive, but your statements were taken that way, and from what I heard, I can clearly see why. It seems to me that your aparadha against my guru is in some way related to your misconceptions about this subject and your negative and unacceptable attitude in dealing with me and my book as you are.
You mistakenly think that Prabhupada's disciples have absolutely no way to understand or enter the path of raganuga-bhakti unless they heard directly from your guru (when he was still present) or some other advanced guru. Generally that may be advisable, but it is not an overriding absolute precondition with no viable alternatives. And do all of Srila Narayana Maharaja's disciples and followers now automatically have the fullest and deepest realizations of raganuga-bhakti having had his personal association? Obviously not. There is much more to it than that.
Once again I draw your attention to these facts:
When this greed has appeared in the heart, one becomes enlightened in different ways. Uddhava says in Srimad-bhagavatam, 11.29.6: “Krsna reveals Himself through the acarya or through the agency of the Supersoul.”
Thus, some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Krsna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled. RVC, 1.9
There is no argument against this statement. If a suitable siksa guru is not available then Krsna will personally take care of things. Does every devotee who wants to understand raganuga have to travel to India and seek out a compatible siksa guru? How will they know who is truly qualified? How much time will they be able to spend with such advanced personalities? Will they get personal attention for hours on end and will it continue on a regular basis when they go back home to insure their continued successful advancement? Your myopic understanding of this part of the process is impractical and unrealistic for the majority of devotees under the current circumstances and at this time. Where is your faith in Krsna's personal guidance?
In the absence of direct personal instruction there are viable alternatives that facilitate one's continued progress, and direct sravanam of the acaryas' books and discussion of the same with sincere devotees is at the top of the list. That is also hearing directly from the lips of realized devotees. Whether the words come directly out of the guru's mouth or are put on paper, it's the same exact thing. And it is Krsna within who gives the realizations in all cases. The acaryas didn't write their books in cryptic or obtuse ways either. We have many layers of commentaries to compare for a clear understanding and Krsna within makes up for the rest. This is how it works.
I have directly heard Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-bhagavatam, Caitanya-caritamrta, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, and many other acarayas' books directly from the lips of my guru, who is a maha-premi-bhakta and your guru's siksa-guru. Where is the flaw or deficiency in my position as such? And I have read some of Srila Narayana Maharaja's books as well.
PP:
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur "I have noted your letter dated the 24th The asta-kaliya-lila about which you have heard from the Vaisnavas in Vrndavana should be highly regarded no doubt But the way in which these pastimes are conceived of in the contaminated state is totally corrupt.
Some fortunate individuals are capable of knowing these things after chanting for a long time, for that is the identity of the true self. But it can only be known after one is freed of mental contaminations With the awakening of this spiritual identity, one automatically has constant cognition of his spiritual form.
Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them.
The spiritual identity has eleven aspects (eka-dasa-bhava) There are many cases of unscrupulous gurus who artificially force-feed these designations on unqualified practitioners, but we cannot call this the mark of spiritual perfection.
Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarupa-siddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation and the spiritual master's only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service." (unquote)
Why not try directly asking any great living vaisnava like Srila Bhakti Vallabha Tirth Maharaja or Bhakti Vijnana Bharati Maharaja when varana-dasa takes place? Then the debate would be over. I have already discussed all these things with my Gurudeva when translating Jaiva Dharma many years ago. I have also personally inquired from most of the great vaisnavas in Vrndavan, Puri and Navadvip. I have even discussed this with Caitanya Carana das Babaji who is the main present acarya in the diksha line of Gopal Guru Gosvami and Dhyanacandra Gosvami in Puri. I assure you that no one agrees with your interpretation.
US:
When Krsna directs me to an appropriate siksa guru I will make such inquiries. Think carefully about what you're saying here. A person realizes their desired relationship with Krsna in one of the four rasas and has been blessed with lobha and has determined the Vraja associate to follow. He learns from his guru or from the acaryas' books about the details of the process, ie: siddha-deha and ekadasa-bhavas and related meditations. Once those things are properly established what is there left to do but to accept them and embrace them fully? When someone has greed they are compelled to do so.
Haridasa Thakura explains this to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in Harinama-cintamani:
Advancing to the stage of acceptance (varana-dasa). As the aspiring devotee hears about Radha and Krsna's asta-kaliya-lila, he starts to feel an intense desire to join them in their activities. Possessed by this desire, he asks the spiritual master: “O great soul, what must I do to attain these pastimes?”
The spiritual master then mercifully describes to his disciple the eleven aspects and how they relate to the Lord’s lila. Pleased with his disciple, the spiritual master then orders him, “Now go and enter the Lord’s pastimes in this identity.” On hearing of his eternal spiritual identity with a pure attitude, the aspirant accepts it and takes it into his heart. HC, 15.64-68
One should reveal one’s siddha-bhava to the gurudeva. After the guru and disciple have thus discussed the matter, and the disciple’s spiritual identity is finally settled, he should fall down at his spiritual master’s feet and entreat him, begging him for success in attaining this spiritual mood. Then the spiritual master will mercifully give his order and the disciple enters into that spiritual identity. HNC, 15.74-76
There it is in black and white. And the same essential things are stated in JD. It doesn't say anything about waiting until asakti to hear about and accept your identity or begin the first stages of meditation. Nothing like that. And the same is clear from BRS. What you've said makes no sense either. What is the devotee compelled by greed supposed to do with all that knowledge in the meantime during nistha and ruci? Just ignore it?
With all due respect to our elder Vaisnavas that you mentioned, those are your connections and not mine. I don't know any of them, nor have I confirmed that they are suitable siksa gurus for me, nor has Krsna indicated that I should seek out their counsel. I don't take other people's evaluations of another's adhikara as conclusive, only indicative. If the devotees you mentioned or anyone else says anything that I consider to be not in sync with the acaryas, then I won't accept it and there is no offense in doing so. Every Vaisnava is held to the same standard of having to substantiate their statements with reference to the acaryas. I know what all of the acaryas have said about these subjects in their most important books and it's all in my book.
PP:
The main thing is to chant offenselessly and constantly. Then all realization gradually awakens. Artificial lila smarana exercises will not help. They will simply prolong the conditioned state.
Srila BVT in HNC states:
"Advanced Vaisnavas advise that chanting is best performed in the presence of Tulasidevi and in a place of Lord Krsna's pastimes. The chanter should always seek the association of saintly devotees and emulate their discipline. He must follow in the footsteps of previous acaryas in the joyful method of worshiping the Lord through His holy name. He may begin with an hour of such chanting, then two, then increase it to four until finally he will chant not less then three lakhas (192 rounds!!!!!) of holy names a day. This helps him to soon sever his links with materialism." (unquote)
A person following the above instructions slowly becomes eligible for lila-smarana which awakens naturally after the appearance of Sri Krsna's form, then qualities, and then associates.
US:
I have said the same thing in my book. It's all there properly presented.
PP:
It is not such a easy thing. To encourage persons to contemplate siddha-deha whose sadhana is not sufficiently developed is fraudulent.
US:
And I have done no such thing. Clearly, you have not read my book very carefully. I gave you a quote in my previous eMail of exactly what I wrote and it was nothing like your accusation. This is another example of completely distorting what I wrote and then unjustly accusing me of something I didn't do, and even then, after I showed you your error. Are you not embarrassed by making such blatant mistakes and accusations? You are way out of line by doing such things.
PP:
Srila Bhaktisddhanta Sarasvati Thakura would not approve of your direction to do smarana of siddha deha and asta-kaliya-lila in the stage of nistha. In his Upadesavali he has written:
US:
How many times do I have to reiterate that I never said that? What Srila Bhaktisddhanta Sarasvati Thakura would not approve is your continual distorted misrepresentations of what I wrote and then using them to denigrate my book and me by association. It is highly dishonest and offensive behavior.
PP:
"By sincerely endeavoring to chant Harinam without offences and remaining fixed in chanting constantly, one's offences will fade and pure Harinam will arise on the tongue.
By dedicating one's mind, body, and words to serving Sri Nama and continuing to chant with great persistence, Sri Nama Prabhu will grant one darsan of His supremely auspicious transcendental form. And by continuing to chant until one's anarthas are fully eradicated by the power of Sri Nama realization of His form, qualities and pastimes will automatically arise. Then internal experience of rendering direct service to the astakaliya-lila, Sri Radha-Krsna's pastimes in each of the eight parts of the day, becomes possible."
(unquote)
In Bhajana Rahasya BVT states:
caturthe ahaituké bhakti uddipana
ruci saha hare hare näma-sankirtana
pancamete suddha dasya rucira sahita
hare rama sankirtana smarana vihita
"While chanting the fifth pair of names – Hare Räma – the ajata-rati-sadhaka prays for the mood of servitude (däsyabhäva) to appear in his heart. Attachment (asakti) for namabhajana arises at this time and remembrance of pastimes begins"
So lila-smarana begins in asakti. Not nistha.
US:
Precisely as I wrote in my book. Read my book carefully and get your facts straight! And I already gave you the quote from my book to prove it in my last eMail which you have conveniently ignored. Why are you doing that? You're wasting our time with these useless tactics and only exposing the weakness of your position.
PP:
Any other conception is an anartha (sadhana-sadhya bhrama) which will prevent even the attainment of nistha.
In summary, there is a krama (sequence)... chant constantly (nistha), give up namaparadha (nistha), realize Sri Krsna's form, qualities and associates (ruci), mantropasanamayi lila, accept siddha deha (asakti), asta-kaliya lila seva (jata-rati)
US:
I agree with your statement with the exception that I disagree with the acceptance of the siddha-deha at asakti. You have not proven that conclusively, whereas I have given proof of my assertions to the contrary.
PP:
Anyone who does not observe this Krama is technically a sahajiya, one who cheapens the process.
US:
Once again, what do they call someone who intentionally and repeatedly distorts another's writing and uses those distortions to create false arguments meant to denigrate that writing and the person? Your dishonest tactics are very offensive and have failed completely. They have in fact backfired on you.
PP:
We will address the issues of sadhu-sanga, sravanam at its best, when "ruci" means "ruci", bhavollasa rati, priya-sakhi bhava etc. later.
Fine with me. We will continue this discussion in public on my online forum. I will send you the link shortly. Like I said before, if I'm wrong, I want to know and I will make those changes which will further enhance my book, so there is no loss for me in this endeavor.
I highly recommend that you carefully review your next 20 items and make sure you have correctly read exactly what I wrote. If you continue to intentionally distort my statements, ie: lie, then your position will be impotent and it will reflect very badly on your own character and motives. Be very careful from this point on.