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Post by mahashaktidas on Jan 31, 2013 22:14:12 GMT -5
In your book under discussion, page 108, there is the following statement regarding anarthas:
"Anartha-nivåtti – Summary and conclusions…
This detailed analysis of the phases of anartha-nivåtti by Viçvanätha Cakravarté sheds much
needed light on how one makes progress in sädhana-bhakti in relation to removing unwanted
obstacles on the path. This deeper understanding will instill confidence and enthusiasm in
serious practitioners, as it is absolutely clear that advancement in bhakti is not an “all or
nothing” proposition. Listen to the definition of a sädhaka from Bhakti-rasämåta-sindhu:
Those persons are called practitioners (sädhakas) who have developed rati for Kåñëa but
have not completely extinguished the anarthas, and who are qualified to see Kåñëa directly.
BRS 2.1.276
Such devotees are still at the stage of practice (sädhana), yet they have developed some level of
rati (bhäva) for Kåñëa and they are even qualified to “see” Kåñëa directly – yet they still have
anarthas! Thus, the notion that one must be absolutely “free from ALL material desires and ALL
bad habits” before any meaningful progress can be made, is clearly not supported by Sanätana
Gosvämé, Rüpa Gosvämé, Jéva Gosvämé, Viçvanätha Cakravarté, Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura, or Kåñëa.
Anarthas may remain even up to the stage of bhäva, the preliminary stage of pure love of Kåñëa."
In summary, you are making the point that anarthas exist when raganuga bhakti begins and they continue up until the stage of prem is reached.
In the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu of Rupa Goswami with summary by Srila Prabhupada, there is the following information given in Chapter 16: Spontaneous Devotional Service Further Described
" We must always remember, however, that such eagerness to follow in the footsteps of the denizens of Vraja (Vṛndāvana) is not possible unless one is freed from material contamination. In following the regulative principles of devotional service, there is a stage called anartha-nivṛtti, which means the disappearance of all material contamination. Sometimes someone is found imitating such devotional love, but factually he is not freed from anarthas, or unwanted habits. It has been seen that a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaśodā or the gopīs, while at the same time his abominable attraction for mundane sex life is visible. Such a manifestation of divine love is mere imitation and has no value. When one is actually spontaneously attracted to the loving principles of the gopīs, there will be found no trace of any mundane contamination in his character.
Therefore, in the beginning, everyone should strictly follow the regulative principles of devotional service, according to the injunctions of the scriptures and the spiritual master. Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vṛndāvana."
I have highlighted the statement by Srila Prabhupada who says that liberation from matter by the practice of strict regulative principles must first be there before one can even aspire for raganuga bhakti ( follow in the footsteps of a Vraj associate ).
I know that your research has clearly led you to believe that raganuga bhakti can and should be started while in the conditioned stage of life. Kindly resolve these two apparent conflicting statements of our Srila Prabhupada who is quoting Rupa Goswami and VCT whom you are quoting.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 31, 2013 23:13:25 GMT -5
As I mentioned in the Introduction, the parampara process insures that there is consistency in the teachings of all successive acaryas and proponents of the path of bhakti.
I quoted SP as saying that one must follow the previous acaryas and one cannot deviate from their conclusions. If a later acarya appears to do so, we must examine all of the acarya's teachings on that subject and resolve the apparent contradictions by seeing how they are harmonious. Contradictory statements should not be viewed in isolation.
As such, my understanding of SP's statements is as follows. The qualification given unanimously by all previous acaryas for beginning raganuga-bhakti is lobha - spiritual greed. It is a blessing/gift and not a choice or technique. Upon the appearance of lobha, one's remaining material desires take a back seat to one's expanding spiritual desires. It is a milestone turning point for a devotee and it is very rare.
Those material desires no longer have the power to divert or distract the devotee from the desired goal, though they remain. The devotee will not feed them or given them the energy they once demanded because the spiritual greed for Krsna and one's desired relationship has become dominant, and the determination to pursue and achieve that goal is stronger than any material desires. All of the acaryas have explained it this way, over and over again throughout their teachings on this matter.
Lobha gives a focus that most devotees cannot comprehend because unless you have been blessed with lobha, it's difficult, if not impossible, to fathom. Thus it could be said that such a devotee has become liberated from the influence of those desires and their contamination, allowing them to concentrate with unprecedented focus on their raganuga-sadhana-bhajan.
The indisputable fact of the matter is that ALL of the acaryas are in complete concurrence with the truth that anarthas and material desires remain up until bhava, so that truth cannot be ignored or cancelled by what SP said. That is not the parampara process. Therefore we have to understand SP's statements in that holistic context. I have provided a preponderance of overwhelming evidence to support that, and it cannot be dismissed without regard. To do so would be an offense to the acaryas.
Raganuga-bhakti is "sadhana" which means it is performed in the conditioned stage as "practice". Conditioned means anarthas. Not one single acarya says that you have to be liberated from material existence before you can "practice" raganuga. Not even close. It would be like saying that you have to reach perfection before you can begin the practice of reaching perfection. It makes no sense whatsoever.
Therefore, SP's statements have to be understood in that context. What he "means" is that one must be freed from the "influence" of material contamination to the point that one's spiritual desires predominate and one's material influences are minimized and do not represent impediments or distractions. You can't fake that either. If one is seen to be pursuing material desires such as sex, then it is an indication that they do not have genuine lobha.
Of course, many devotees will still argue that SP's words must be taken literally, blindly, and without question. That stance unfortunately results in SP contradicting every single previous acaryas' statements in this regard, and they have all stated their cases repeatedly without ambiguity, as I have presented in my book.
So how will such devotees resolve that conundrum? By that standard, because SP has contradicted every statement of all the previous acaryas on this matter, he has therefore deviated from them in a big way, precisely as he said one cannot do. That is unacceptable and is unresolvable and I reject that position.
As I stated in my Introduction, SP raised the bar on some aspects related to raganuga-bhakti, to keep unqualified people from prematurely entering this path, and I contend that this is one example.
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Post by mahashaktidas on Feb 1, 2013 12:45:03 GMT -5
There is an interesting part of Srila Rupa Goswami's statement that we have not addressed thus far that gives the real meaning of whom he is directing his comments to. He is warning us about persons who declare themselves to be followers of a particular resident of Vraja while maintaining abominable sexual relations. To my knowledge, only BVT made public his relationship with Krsna and his character was nitya-siddha and 100% pure. After BVT, both param gurudeva Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and our Srila Prabhupada never spoke or announced their siddha-deha publicly or in writing; if at all, it was quiet and clandestine. It is the general raganuga principle that persons who have knowledge of their siddha-deha and ekadasa bhavas do not publicly show or speak about them with the public. Externally they are mandated by sastra to carry on with the regulative principles but within they think deeply of their particular love for the Lord.
Thus, in these two seemingly contradictory statements by Srila Rupa Goswami and VCT, the harmony can be found in that the former statement applies to those who blatantly disregard the principle of confidentiality while executing raganuga bhakti and the evidence that these persons are bhogus can be found in their poor character, continued illicit connection to the opposite sex and ignorance of rasa sastra.
It is not unusual to find such strong warnings from our gurus in regard to the practice of raganuga bhakti. They are the guardians of Truth and are empowered to protect the inner sanctum of bhakti from the unauthorized attempts by non-devotees and neophyte devotees to enter prematurely into the leela of Lord Krsna's Braj. Sacred bhakti has a history of being attacked by unholy persons who have not been properly initiated and trained in vaidhi bhakti. As Srila Prabhupada once said in his famous lecture in Philadelphia in 1974, don't jump over the guru to get to Krsna. Mahajano yena gata sa panta. We must follow in the footsteps of the Mahajanas. First we take initiation by a qualified guru/ acharya and practice the regulative principles of freedom ( vaidhi ). Then when we are sufficiently cleansed of material dirt and steady in our devotional practice, lobha or greed for entering into Braj leela may awaken within our heart. This is the proper beginning of our inner journey and quest for spontaneous devotional service.
Enough said. Your comments are welcome.
Please give me your blessings.
Jaya Srila Prabhupada!
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Post by swamibvt on Feb 1, 2013 15:05:39 GMT -5
Prabhupda said quite a bit about his ideal being sakhya rasa. But he did not speak about the details of his svarupa. And while there is quite a history of keeping one's inner life inner, there is also quite a history of followers outing those who they follow. What has Rupa Goswami said about his being Rupa-manjari? Nothing. But everyone knows about it because his followers have brought it out.
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Post by niscala on Mar 9, 2013 5:37:56 GMT -5
Mahasakti wrote, quoting Srila Prabhupada: Only after the stage of liberation from material contamination can one actually aspire to follow in the footsteps of the devotees in Vṛndâvana.
Such statements should be read in their context, and the context in the paragraph preceding, is about imitating divine love and self-advertisement: "a so-called devotee proclaims himself a follower of Nanda, Yaúodâ or the gopîs".
Clearly one should not take to the path of raganuga for show, and make proclamations about it. The other point, made in Uttama's book, is that once one starts in a genuine way, on the path of raga, then very quickly advancement is made. Correct me if I'm wrong, Uttama, but from the stage of ruci (or is it nistha?) onwards, anarthas may be there but they are no longer obstacles on the path. One is reminded of a river- when it is not in flood, boulders may obstruct its course. When in flood, they are submerged, and cannot be seen in external behavior- they remain distant traces, hardly perceptible. Now, if we examine Srila Prabhupada's words BEFORE this quote, he is speaking of these so-called raganugas exhibiting abominable sexual connections- clearly, unsubmerged boulders.
How do such words affect us, who have so many unsubmerged boulders? In the quote Uttama sent me, Srila Prabhupada writes that one SHOULD desire a relationship with Krsna. If we take his words, quoted by Mahasakti, in a way that discourages us from wanting a relationship with Krsna, then we are not following this other instruction he gave us. We should simply take this quote in the context in which it is written: that we should not imitate or pretend to be immersed in raganuga for the purpose of advertising ourselves. We should only take to it because we want a relationship with Krsna. Nothing else. That is pure greed. If we want a relationship with Krsna, and also something else like self-promotion, the thirst is not as intense- as its accompanying something else. One has to want it with one's whole being, and be prepared to sacrifice everything for it.
In regard to Bhativinode Thakura advertising his siddha deha, whereas others kept theirs quiet, we know so much about his humble character, from his astonishing songs wherein he describes himself as a "wicked materialist" It would be utterly out of character for him to self-promote. His instruction about his siddha deha form was to teach us how to meditate in that regard: "I am doing this- this is my service. This is how I perform my service" It is not necessary that every guru teach this lesson. Others may seem to teach the opposite: Its better not to tell- keep it quiet, so as to avoid honour. Let everyone think you are a vaidhi bhakta like everyone else. Both instructions are important- how to meditate...and how to avoid honour.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Mar 21, 2013 0:24:11 GMT -5
Niscala: Re anarthas, according to Visvanatha, at the stage of nistha most anarthas have been reduced to submerged boulders, to use your analogy. They are there, but do not represent major impediments. Still one must be diligent and on guard for lapses or complacency.
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Post by prisnidd on Mar 23, 2013 9:05:51 GMT -5
About person's relationship with Krishna. Maybe it is not announced since it becomes obvious for those who understand the subject matter, so announcing it becomes redundant. Those who can't see don't need to know. Of course being able to see, then also becomes a test for egilibility. We have to advance enough in spiritual practices to develop that vision.
That really don't sit well with those who think it is just a matter of scholarship.
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 22, 2014 20:28:05 GMT -5
Being realistic about it, who really has this 'genuine' greed? I mean the kind that has you hooked 24/7? I think that acquiring greed, like every other thing, is a gradual process... If someone is seen to have a lot of it and suddenly, isn't that a sign of an attainment from a previous lifetime? Nisarga! For the rest of us, we shall have to toil away in the vineyard of sadhana bhakti, with an ever increasing taste for the subject matter of Nam, Rup, Guna and Lila. Getting the association of any high class rasika Vaisnava helps immensely, but there again, it does not mean one has attained to genuine rag, even if you are in such high class association. Clearly it means so much is dependent on previous samskaras. A gradual process indeed, and no time like now to acquire more of that kind of sukriti.
Did I say toil away? Looks more like fun really, and if you're not having a blissful time you're clearly in MAYA, as one of my gurus used to say!! But taste, ruci, is when we really have some desire to submerge more and more in such nectar, and so, even if there are still anarthas present, they will not stop one from daily diving into the pool.
One thing about sense gratification. Keeping it at a steady state makes it become somewhat invisible. There's the example of householders who stay with each other for a lifetime. Sense gratification has to be new and exciting to really hold our attention.. Going shopping is a good example of that. We think that buying this brand new whatever, is going to make our lives so much more enjoyable. The thrill doesn't last long after we get it home and so more shopping for newer and better stuff is required, cause the old stuff don't do it for us anymore. The satisfaction is in the future when the thing that really does it for us will be acquired. This keeps us on the treadmill and firmly in the mode of passion. I use the example of shopping cause it is a legal form of sense gratification for devotees to relate to.
The solution is simple living and high thinking as Prabhupada encouraged with his varnashrama community development program. Such a foundation, based in the mode of goodness where the senses are pacified, would greatly assist those who want to enter into deeper levels of bhajan.
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Post by niscala on Aug 23, 2014 5:10:21 GMT -5
Every aspect of varnasrama is designed to keep the soul connected to Krsna- it's healthy from the social, psychological, bodily and spiritual point of view, as nothing is imposed- one functions honestly according to one's nature in the three modes and gradually through dovetailing all activities in devotional service, and pleasing those who are actually more advanced (varna and ashrama should reflect this, or its not the real thing) then one makes spiritual advancement.
Because one is recognizing one's conditioning in the modes, varnasrama facilitates removal of anarthas of pretense, falsity and so on, when all activities are done as devotional service.
Gradually, through the enlightenment of vaisnava brahmanas, one is inspired to become more and more sold out to Krsna and less and less interested in one's own "needs" separate from that, and the following of the vidhi becomes easier and less imposed over time, and as you pointed out, time itself facilitates that as well.
As one becomes more and more absorbed in sravanam, kirtanam, smaranam of Krsna lila, one feels more identified with the feelings of one class of devotees- such as the gopis- and reading more and more about that rasa, one may realise how sweet it is. Realizing how far one is from the goal, and how desirable it is, and how helpless one is to attain it on one's own, combined with prayers to one's most inspirational Vraja associate, all helps to inflame lobha.
A peaceful atmosphere, a day centred around Krsna katha and a working model of Vrindavan with cows and their products as the basis of the economy- was the vision that Srila Prabhupada wanted for his farms and it would certainly be extremely conducive for raganuga. But it would have to be actual varnasrama, with spiritually inspired leaders disinterested in politics, control and getting things done, being respected and obeyed by those in the managerial mindset. It would mean that the managers would have to favour private solitary bhajana for those who want it and are truly ready for it (with lobha), over hard work with results. That is only possible when those devoid of passion's influence are providing the ultimate instructions.
How to recognize someone with lobha- he wants to spend all his time, chanting and hearing about Krsna, as all other desires have become insignificant compared to his burning desire for a relationship with Krsna. Transposed into a varnasrama community, such a person would beg the brahmana in charge to be freed from all other duties- or more freed from them- so as to spend more time in solitary bhajan- and he should be allowed it. If there is any doubt, he can be observed as to what he is doing with his time.
I know this is going off the topic in the book itself, but as it is relevant to anarthas and also raganuga, I hope it will be accepted by all! :-) We would all love to be in a situation that is ideal for bhajan, but if we live as simply as we can, and minimize our material needs, there will be at least more time for bhajan, and through association via the internet we can try to make the situation as favorable as we can.
The most wonderful thing is that we can get the association of nitya-siddha personal associates of Lord Chaitanya through their books, which have been translated into English, so we have the best tutors on hand, which more than compensates for everything else. Each and every verse they have written is a tutorial for our hearts on how to love Krsna.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 23, 2014 16:40:04 GMT -5
<Being realistic about it, who really has this 'genuine' greed? I mean the kind that has you hooked 24/7? I think that acquiring greed, like every other thing, is a gradual process... If someone is seen to have a lot of it and suddenly, isn't that a sign of an attainment from a previous lifetime?>
In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains very revealing details regarding this greed:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
Greed does not necessarily appear at full strength right from the start so no one should expect to be consumed 24/7 in the beginning. As Tarun said, it grows gradually according to how we utilize and fuel it once it first appears due to mercy. From nistha onwards, one’s focus continues to deepen and intensify growing into ruci, asakti and bhava. Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains the incredible potency of lobha in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:
In Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi it is said that, “those who are especially attracted to the mood of the vraja-vāsīs and thus, perform rāgānugā-bhakti, will attain that abundance of eagerness that is needed for performing rāgānugā-bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three at the same time.” Here the word anurāgaugha means “that eagerness that makes one qualified for doing rāgānugā-bhajana”. RVC, 2.7
The appearance of greed marks a shift in one’s prioritites where entering the path or raganuga to attain Vraja prema becomes one’s top priority in spite of the fact that other aspects of one’s life are still demanding of attention and in spite of the fact that some anarthas remain.
<Did I say toil away? Looks more like fun really, and if you're not having a blissful time you're clearly in MAYA, as one of my gurus used to say!! But taste, ruci, is when we really have some desire to submerge more and more in such nectar, and so, even if there are still anarthas present, they will not stop one from daily diving into the pool.>
Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains this with a simple and perfect analogy in his commentary from Śrīmad-bhāgavatam:
Devotion, direct experience of the Supreme Lord, and detachment from other things – these three occur simultaneously for one who has taken shelter of Kṛṣṇa, in the same way that pleasure, fullness of the stomach and relief from hunger are experienced simultaneously, with each bite, for a person engaged in eating. SB, 11.2.42
From Śrī Viśvanātha’s commentary:
An example is given to show that even at the stage of sādhana, which gives great happiness, one achieves the result. When there is bhakti in the form of hearing and chanting about Kṛṣṇa, the supreme deity, there should be a sweet experience. At that time, there should also be an experience of detachment from material happiness. These three should arise at the same time for the person who worships Kṛṣṇa.
Similarly for a person who eats, there is happiness, nourishment and disappearance of hunger with each mouthful. As one takes a mouthful of rice, this happens. Just as a person who eats a little gets a little satisfaction, a little nourishment (fullness of stomach) and a little relief from hunger, so a person who worships the Lord a little with hearing and chanting, gets a little experience of the Lord, and a little detachment from material life.
And just as a person who eats a lot gets full satisfaction, full nourishment and full relief from hunger, so a person who worships the Lord fully, experiences the Lord and becomes completely detached from material life. But though it is impossible to keep eating, by more worship of the Lord one becomes more capable of worshipping. That is the difference.
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tarun
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Post by tarun on Aug 27, 2014 21:50:38 GMT -5
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