Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 6, 2022 13:30:35 GMT -5
There is a devotee on FaceBook named Hari Parsada. He’s an Indian Vaisnava, and does Sanskrit and Bengali translation work, and he sometimes writes articles that he posts on FaceBook.
Well, he posted an article titled: ~ Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~
As you will read below, the article is full of bizarre, unfounded and absurd speculations with no suport from guru, sadhu and sastra. It required a lengthy and thoughtful response because it covers a lot of esoteric ground.
And now, after posting my direct responses to his assertions, Hari Parsada deleted my comments instead of directly responding to them and defending his position. That shows very little integrity and is very disingenuous. It appears he cannot defend his speculations, as you will see below.
This is a perfect example of someone who can translate Sanskrit, but who does not have the adhikara to understand the subject properly, yet thinks he does. Very dangerous.
So I'm posting his article here with my responses and we can discuss it here since he appears to be too cowardly to do that directly. He is afraid to engage in a serious vada discussion, and he claimed my responses were jalpa and vitanda. Ironically, that's exactly what he is doing - jalpa and vitanda, ie: only my position can be shown - no others.
I will preface his statements with HP, enclosed within <> and my responses are prefaced with US.
HP: < Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~
The Pandora's box opens up with two popular verses — one from the Caitanya-caritāmṛtam and the other from the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ:
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema ’sādhya’ kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
BBT Translation: Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. (CC, Madhya, 22.107)
nitya-siddhasya bhāvasya
prākaṭyaṁ hṛdi sādhyatā
BBT Translation: Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice. (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ, quoted in CC Madhya 22.105)
The issue here is that some previous authorities will not exactly translate the verse in this fashion. They do not agree that prema is an intrinsic part of the eternal existence of the conditioned jīva, or that it somehow "naturally awakens". According to them, the conditioned jīva has no eternally existing prema and can only get it when it is bestowed by an existing nitya-siddha devotee who is eternally in possession of such prema.>
US: Being a translator yourself, I’m surprised you didn’t offer your own direct translation, since you know full well what the verse actually states. It’s not a cryptic sutra from the Vedanta-sutras. It’s very simple and straight forward.
Here is the direct translation by a respected Vaisnava Sanskrit scholar. Notice in the word for word, there is no original phrase for "in the hearts of the living entities". Here is the line by line translation for comparison:
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema - Eternally existent [fixed, perfect, unchanging] Krishna prema
sādhya kabhu naya - never be attained [by any means].
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte - In the mind purified by hearing and chanting
karaye udayacan - it appears [like the sun rising].
Now, before everyone has a knee-jerk fit, mistakenly projecting that I am contradicting or offending Srila Prabhupada, let me point out that this direct translation is in perfect sync with the translation from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.2, and the commentaries of Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who explain exactly what those verses mean, so there is no need for speculation or confusion or spin. They have given the direct unambiguous understanding.
From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu - note the last paragraph of Jiva Gosvami’s commentary and specifically, the last sentence:
Now sādhana-bhakti will be defined: Action of the senses, which produces the stage of bhāva, is called sādhana-bhakti. This attained state of bhāva-bhakti (sādhyatā) is an eternal sthāyi-bhāva which is not created, *but simply manifests within the soul by the spiritual energy of the Lord*. BRS, 1.2.2
From Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:
In order to distinguish this sādhana-bhakti from forms of bhakti that involve direct realization of the Lord, the word sādhya-bhāvā is used: sādhana ends with the attainment of bhāva. Sādhana is that by which bhāva and prema are achieved. Bhāva is not included in sādhana.
However, the sādhya-rüpa or perfected form is also bhakti, being a part of it. The word sādhya-bhāvā (one meaning is “whose goal is bhāva-bhakti” but another meaning is “achieving its goal”) in any case excludes other goals of human endeavor (artha, dharma, kāma and mokṣa). This was already mentioned in the definition of uttama-bhakti (anyābhilāṣitā-śünyam) which includes within it this present definition.
A doubt may arise that since this state is achieved (sādhya), implying that it is artificially produced, it is not the ultimate goal. The second line responds to this doubt by saying that it is eternal, and simply appears within the heart. **That is because its appearance (but not its creation) will be accomplished in the future by the special actions of the most excellent transformations (saṁvit and hlādinī) of Lord’s svarüpa-śakti (which are perfect and eternal).**
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary is virtually the same as Jiva Gosvami, including the last sentence.
For further confirmation, let’s examine Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.3.1, ie: the first verse in the chapter on Bhava-bhakit, which is the goal of sadhana-bhakti. Note the sections I’ve highlighted with * *
That part of bhakti is called bhāva, whose essence is saṁvit and hlādinī-śakti, which is one ray of the sun of prema, which will soon rise in the heart, and which softens the heart with desires to meet, serve, and exchange love with the Lord. BRS, 1.3.1
From Jiva Gosvami's commentary:
Therefore, the meaning is this. That general bhakti, which was defined as favorable service to the Lord, is called bhava when referring to one particular portion of it called bhava-rupa-bhakti. *What is the essential nature of that bhava? Bhava has, as its svarupa or essence, Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, in the form of hladini and samvit.*
[Note this paragraph]
*This svarupa is an eternal object, an eternal manifestation (nitya-siddha), situated within the eternal dear associates of the Lord.* Uniting itself with its place of appearance (namely, the mind of the devotee), this bhava becomes a variety of mental conditions (citta-vrtti) characterized by a favorable attitude to the Lord.
Furthermore, this bhava softens the heart (mind) with its desires for meeting the Lord, serving the Lord favorably, and attaining the friendship of the Lord. This bhava is also the sprout, which will become prema, and which will be described later.
By comparing prema to the sun, there is the suggestion that, just as the sun will appear soon after the light of dawn, prema will appear very soon after the appearance of bhava. As well, it is like a ray of the sun; it is the first glow of the sun of prema. It will be explained later that prema is the condensed form of bhava: (BRS 1.4.1)
If one is particularly inquisitive about proofs, one should see the Priti-sandarbha. ***Though this bhava is seen in the eternal associates of the Lord, the mental conditions of the devotees within this world become similar, by the mercy of the Lord and His devotees. By this mercy alone it shall appear. There is no need to elaborate further.*** [end]
“BY THIS MERCY ALONE IT SHALL APPEAR. There is no need to elaborate further.” Those are Jiva Gosvami’s words - the leading scholarly acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya.
Jiva Gosvami states clearly, unequivocally, and irrefutably, that bhava and prema are nitya-siddha and they reside in the hearts of the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. And that bhava and eventually prema, appears in the heart by Krsna’s and their mercy, ie: it is not already there.
If it was already in every jiva’s heart, it would have been stated clearly, unequivocally and irrefutably, right there in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, but such statements are nowhere to be found in these verses or commentaries, nor in any others in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. Those are the facts.
Note carefully that bhava’s essence is 'samvit and hladini', neither of which are part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. They are features of the svarupa-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas are a distinct category from the svarupa-sakti and maya-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya, or they can attain the svarupa-sakti - the spiritual world.
The svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas is discussed in great detail by Baladeva Vidyabhusana in the fourth section of the Vedanta-sutras and in Jiva Gosvami’s Paramatma-sandarbha. In neither of those discussions will you find any shred of evidence that any part of the svarupa-sakti is within the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. No such statements exist or are implied. Sat-cit-ananda are not exactly the same either and those details are explained by Jiva Gosvami as well.
So logically, if bhava’s essence is classified as such, then what to speak of prema, since bhava is described as prema's one ray. Hladini and samvit saktis can never be covered by maya-sakti. That is not possible. That is a core eternal Vedic tattva, along with all the siddhantas that follow from it, ie: the tatastha-sakti jivas could not have prema in their hearts because jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya and hladini and samvit can never be covered by maya-sakti. What is there in the jivas’ hearts is the ‘potential’ and ‘eligibility’ to attain prema - a relationship with Krsna in Vraja lila.
Therefore, simple sastric logic leads us to the inevitable and clear conclusion that Srila Prabhupada’s translation was ‘preaching for the masses’. It’s as simple as that. No other reconciliation is acceptable because it would mean that Srila Prabhupada was knowingly or unknowingly contradicting core tattvas, and he would never do that, nor can we accept that he didn’t understand these tattvas and siddhantas.
HP: <On the other hand, other authorities say that prema is intrinsic to the existence of the jīva. It merely has to be "discovered" and is not begotten from an external source. These two viewpoints are certainly contradictory, and a resolution is definitely needed.
If we study the entire matter carefully, we will realize that the ācāryas who wrote that prema is "intrinsic" to the jīva as well as the ācāryas who wrote that it is "bestowed" upon the jīva are both correct in their own ways. None of these ācāryas were making a siddhāntic adjustment when they made their respective statements. Let's explore how this is so.
The sandarbhas specify that there are many intrinsic qualities of the nitya-siddha jīva. These intrinsic qualities are merely covered up in the nitya-baddha jīva. This is specified in verses of Viṣṇu-dharma quoted in Prīti-sandarbha (5):>
US: All of the verses you quoted
Well, he posted an article titled: ~ Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~
As you will read below, the article is full of bizarre, unfounded and absurd speculations with no suport from guru, sadhu and sastra. It required a lengthy and thoughtful response because it covers a lot of esoteric ground.
And now, after posting my direct responses to his assertions, Hari Parsada deleted my comments instead of directly responding to them and defending his position. That shows very little integrity and is very disingenuous. It appears he cannot defend his speculations, as you will see below.
This is a perfect example of someone who can translate Sanskrit, but who does not have the adhikara to understand the subject properly, yet thinks he does. Very dangerous.
So I'm posting his article here with my responses and we can discuss it here since he appears to be too cowardly to do that directly. He is afraid to engage in a serious vada discussion, and he claimed my responses were jalpa and vitanda. Ironically, that's exactly what he is doing - jalpa and vitanda, ie: only my position can be shown - no others.
I will preface his statements with HP, enclosed within <> and my responses are prefaced with US.
HP: < Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~
The Pandora's box opens up with two popular verses — one from the Caitanya-caritāmṛtam and the other from the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ:
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema ’sādhya’ kabhu naya
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya
BBT Translation: Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. (CC, Madhya, 22.107)
nitya-siddhasya bhāvasya
prākaṭyaṁ hṛdi sādhyatā
BBT Translation: Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice. (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ, quoted in CC Madhya 22.105)
The issue here is that some previous authorities will not exactly translate the verse in this fashion. They do not agree that prema is an intrinsic part of the eternal existence of the conditioned jīva, or that it somehow "naturally awakens". According to them, the conditioned jīva has no eternally existing prema and can only get it when it is bestowed by an existing nitya-siddha devotee who is eternally in possession of such prema.>
US: Being a translator yourself, I’m surprised you didn’t offer your own direct translation, since you know full well what the verse actually states. It’s not a cryptic sutra from the Vedanta-sutras. It’s very simple and straight forward.
Here is the direct translation by a respected Vaisnava Sanskrit scholar. Notice in the word for word, there is no original phrase for "in the hearts of the living entities". Here is the line by line translation for comparison:
nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema - Eternally existent [fixed, perfect, unchanging] Krishna prema
sādhya kabhu naya - never be attained [by any means].
śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte - In the mind purified by hearing and chanting
karaye udayacan - it appears [like the sun rising].
Now, before everyone has a knee-jerk fit, mistakenly projecting that I am contradicting or offending Srila Prabhupada, let me point out that this direct translation is in perfect sync with the translation from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.2, and the commentaries of Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who explain exactly what those verses mean, so there is no need for speculation or confusion or spin. They have given the direct unambiguous understanding.
From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu - note the last paragraph of Jiva Gosvami’s commentary and specifically, the last sentence:
Now sādhana-bhakti will be defined: Action of the senses, which produces the stage of bhāva, is called sādhana-bhakti. This attained state of bhāva-bhakti (sādhyatā) is an eternal sthāyi-bhāva which is not created, *but simply manifests within the soul by the spiritual energy of the Lord*. BRS, 1.2.2
From Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:
In order to distinguish this sādhana-bhakti from forms of bhakti that involve direct realization of the Lord, the word sādhya-bhāvā is used: sādhana ends with the attainment of bhāva. Sādhana is that by which bhāva and prema are achieved. Bhāva is not included in sādhana.
However, the sādhya-rüpa or perfected form is also bhakti, being a part of it. The word sādhya-bhāvā (one meaning is “whose goal is bhāva-bhakti” but another meaning is “achieving its goal”) in any case excludes other goals of human endeavor (artha, dharma, kāma and mokṣa). This was already mentioned in the definition of uttama-bhakti (anyābhilāṣitā-śünyam) which includes within it this present definition.
A doubt may arise that since this state is achieved (sādhya), implying that it is artificially produced, it is not the ultimate goal. The second line responds to this doubt by saying that it is eternal, and simply appears within the heart. **That is because its appearance (but not its creation) will be accomplished in the future by the special actions of the most excellent transformations (saṁvit and hlādinī) of Lord’s svarüpa-śakti (which are perfect and eternal).**
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary is virtually the same as Jiva Gosvami, including the last sentence.
For further confirmation, let’s examine Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.3.1, ie: the first verse in the chapter on Bhava-bhakit, which is the goal of sadhana-bhakti. Note the sections I’ve highlighted with * *
That part of bhakti is called bhāva, whose essence is saṁvit and hlādinī-śakti, which is one ray of the sun of prema, which will soon rise in the heart, and which softens the heart with desires to meet, serve, and exchange love with the Lord. BRS, 1.3.1
From Jiva Gosvami's commentary:
Therefore, the meaning is this. That general bhakti, which was defined as favorable service to the Lord, is called bhava when referring to one particular portion of it called bhava-rupa-bhakti. *What is the essential nature of that bhava? Bhava has, as its svarupa or essence, Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, in the form of hladini and samvit.*
[Note this paragraph]
*This svarupa is an eternal object, an eternal manifestation (nitya-siddha), situated within the eternal dear associates of the Lord.* Uniting itself with its place of appearance (namely, the mind of the devotee), this bhava becomes a variety of mental conditions (citta-vrtti) characterized by a favorable attitude to the Lord.
Furthermore, this bhava softens the heart (mind) with its desires for meeting the Lord, serving the Lord favorably, and attaining the friendship of the Lord. This bhava is also the sprout, which will become prema, and which will be described later.
By comparing prema to the sun, there is the suggestion that, just as the sun will appear soon after the light of dawn, prema will appear very soon after the appearance of bhava. As well, it is like a ray of the sun; it is the first glow of the sun of prema. It will be explained later that prema is the condensed form of bhava: (BRS 1.4.1)
If one is particularly inquisitive about proofs, one should see the Priti-sandarbha. ***Though this bhava is seen in the eternal associates of the Lord, the mental conditions of the devotees within this world become similar, by the mercy of the Lord and His devotees. By this mercy alone it shall appear. There is no need to elaborate further.*** [end]
“BY THIS MERCY ALONE IT SHALL APPEAR. There is no need to elaborate further.” Those are Jiva Gosvami’s words - the leading scholarly acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya.
Jiva Gosvami states clearly, unequivocally, and irrefutably, that bhava and prema are nitya-siddha and they reside in the hearts of the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. And that bhava and eventually prema, appears in the heart by Krsna’s and their mercy, ie: it is not already there.
If it was already in every jiva’s heart, it would have been stated clearly, unequivocally and irrefutably, right there in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, but such statements are nowhere to be found in these verses or commentaries, nor in any others in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. Those are the facts.
Note carefully that bhava’s essence is 'samvit and hladini', neither of which are part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. They are features of the svarupa-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas are a distinct category from the svarupa-sakti and maya-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya, or they can attain the svarupa-sakti - the spiritual world.
The svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas is discussed in great detail by Baladeva Vidyabhusana in the fourth section of the Vedanta-sutras and in Jiva Gosvami’s Paramatma-sandarbha. In neither of those discussions will you find any shred of evidence that any part of the svarupa-sakti is within the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. No such statements exist or are implied. Sat-cit-ananda are not exactly the same either and those details are explained by Jiva Gosvami as well.
So logically, if bhava’s essence is classified as such, then what to speak of prema, since bhava is described as prema's one ray. Hladini and samvit saktis can never be covered by maya-sakti. That is not possible. That is a core eternal Vedic tattva, along with all the siddhantas that follow from it, ie: the tatastha-sakti jivas could not have prema in their hearts because jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya and hladini and samvit can never be covered by maya-sakti. What is there in the jivas’ hearts is the ‘potential’ and ‘eligibility’ to attain prema - a relationship with Krsna in Vraja lila.
Therefore, simple sastric logic leads us to the inevitable and clear conclusion that Srila Prabhupada’s translation was ‘preaching for the masses’. It’s as simple as that. No other reconciliation is acceptable because it would mean that Srila Prabhupada was knowingly or unknowingly contradicting core tattvas, and he would never do that, nor can we accept that he didn’t understand these tattvas and siddhantas.
HP: <On the other hand, other authorities say that prema is intrinsic to the existence of the jīva. It merely has to be "discovered" and is not begotten from an external source. These two viewpoints are certainly contradictory, and a resolution is definitely needed.
If we study the entire matter carefully, we will realize that the ācāryas who wrote that prema is "intrinsic" to the jīva as well as the ācāryas who wrote that it is "bestowed" upon the jīva are both correct in their own ways. None of these ācāryas were making a siddhāntic adjustment when they made their respective statements. Let's explore how this is so.
The sandarbhas specify that there are many intrinsic qualities of the nitya-siddha jīva. These intrinsic qualities are merely covered up in the nitya-baddha jīva. This is specified in verses of Viṣṇu-dharma quoted in Prīti-sandarbha (5):>
US: All of the verses you quoted
only prove that the jiva simply realizes his/her svarupa, and Jiva Gosvami never said that it includes a relationship or rasa with Krsna in a particular lila. No such verses or discussions are there in Priti-sandarbha or Paramatma-sandarbha which indicate a pre-existing relationship. And it’s not in the Vedanta-sutras either.
You’ll have to provide direct unequivocal sastra and statements from the purva acaryas indicating that a pre-existing relationship with Krsna in one of His lilas is part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas.
HP: However, the Prīti-sandarbha quote above has clearly mentioned that it is "lopa" (disappearance) of that jñāna which is nitya-guṇa (intrinsic quality) of the jīva. Clearly, the terms abhāva (lack) and lopa (disappearance) do not tally with each other. Neither does anyone have the eyes to look into the window of anādi-kāla and determine if it was abhāva (lack) or lopa (disappearance) of intrinsic jñāna of the jīva which caused its bondage in this world.
US: There was no ‘cause’ like that for the jiva’s bondage in the material worlds. Sastra doesn’t teach that, and neither does Krsna nor the purva acaryas. The tatastha-sakti jivas were manifest from Paramatma specifically to assist in the manifestation of sristi-lila - the material worlds. And that is for Krsna’s pleasure, since He can do things in these worlds that He cannot do in the spiritual world.
And that requires tatastha-sakti jivas who are given all facilities for pleasure in these worlds. Unless of course they screw up and do bad things, in which case, they are responsible and suffer for their own actions.
Here is what Krsna and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura teach:
O intelligent Uddhava! The bondage of the jiva, who is my one part or tatastha-sakti, by avidya, *is without beginning*. By vidya, he achieves liberation which has a beginning. SB, 11.11.4
From the commentary by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura:
Bondage and liberation of My śakti, the jīva, which are apparent only, is caused by My avidyā-śakti, which produces the imposition of the body, and liberation is produced by My vidyā-śakti which removes the imposition of the body. This is brought about under the influence of My śakti which functions for the pastime of creation and destruction of the universe.
The jīva-śakti exists in various conditions in various bodies by māyā-śakti. *From the statement of Viṣṇu-purana, it is understood that the jīva-śakti is generally controlled by māyā-śakti for accomplishing the pastime of creation of the universe.* That is stated in the verse. The jīva is bound by avidyā. *Avidyā is beginningless because karma is beginningless*. When liberation takes place, avidyā has an end for that particular jīva. Liberation, because it is produced, has a beginning. But because it is indestructible, it has no end.
HP: <In the same Prīti-sandarbha, it is specified that although the jīva is in a conditioned state right now, but there is a potential eternal spiritual body waiting since time immemorial to be assigned to the jīva in the spiritual world. This is specified in the Prīti-sandarbha as follows — anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante, tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtiḥ bhagavatā kriyate — "Unlimited [eternal] bodily forms exist in Vaikuṇṭha. Out of those unlimited eternal forms, the liberated soul is assigned one form by Bhagavān". — (Prīti-sandarbha, 10)
These potential bodies in the spiritual world are all eternal, because the Bhagavat-sandarbha firmly establishes the siddhānta that in the spiritual world none of the spiritual bodies are ever "created" at a certain point of time. They are all eternally existing. Creation of new bodies does not take place in the spiritual world. This means that the potential eternal spiritual bodies of all the conditioned jīvas are already waiting in the spiritual world. These spiritual bodies are replete with all spiritual guṇas (qualities), and are merely waiting to be assigned to the jīva by the mercy of Bhagavān as and when these jīvas become fully accepted by Bhagavān. >
US: Once again, context is important. This section of the Priti-sandarbha deals specifically and ONLY with the five types of mukti by which one attains Vaikuntha, and this specific section is referring to sarupya-mukti, ie: desiring a form like the Lord’s form - a four-armed form. Those forms mentioned are forms like Visnu’s or His other expansions, which are desired by those mukta-jivas. We read about that in Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita, when Gopa-kumara visits Vaikuntha.
And are we supposed to think or assume that those who desire these various types of liberation in Vaikuntha, had those desires intrinsically in their hearts all along just waiting to burst out? That makes no sense. Those mukta-jivas are simply fulfilling their own personal desires for the type of liberation they cultivated during their sadhana, which developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga and sadhana.
And Vaikuntha prema is limited to santa, dasya, and a bit of sakhya for the residents, and those types of prema are not even close to the same level as Vraja prema, which is the highest attainment and involves a very different process.
What is described in that section of Priti-sandarbha is not the method for attaining an eternal form in Vraja lila, which is an entirely different process, as explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentaries to Ujjvala-nilamani and Raga-vartma-candrika, as well as Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Jaiva-dharma and Hari-nama-cintamani.
From Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary in Ujjvala-nilamani, 3.51:
“If those present day persons practicing rāgānuga attain prema in some birth by going through the states of niṣṭhā, ruci, and āsakti, they become qualified for service to the Lord. At the time of leaving the body, will they attain the positions of associates beyond the material world, or participate when the Lord descends as avatāra?”
Since it is impossible for the transformations of prema such as sneha, māna, praṇaya to appear in the body of a sādhaka, by the power of associating in gopī bodies with nitya-siddha gopīs having mahābhāva, and by seeing, hearing, remembering and chanting about the qualities of the Lord, they will certainly attain such a position. Since these methods are very powerful, without them one cannot attain perfection as a gopī.
The young gopīs took the greatest pleasure in seeing Govinda come home, since for them even a moment was like a hundred yugas. SB 10.19.16
The meaning is this. Who are the gopīs? Those for whom a moment seemed like a hundred yugas attained the supreme bliss. Truṭir yugāyate: Half a second becomes as long as an entire age for us. (SB 10.31.15) This is a characteristic of mahābhāva. It is not seen that the sādhakas of this world enter into the pastimes of Vṛndāvana unmanifest in this world, whereas it is seen that the siddhas enter to those pastimes.
Thus it is only a place for siddhas, for stages like sneha do not quickly manifest by one’s own sādhana. Thus, by yogamāyā, devotees who have developed prema join at the time of Kṛṣṇa’s avatāra in the manifestation of Vṛndāvana in this world as a preliminary attainment. This can be inferred by seeing that sādhakas, various materialistic persons and siddhās all enter this earthly Vṛndāvana. It is the place for sādhakas and siddhas, where they can perfect their bhāvas before associating directly with Kṛṣṇa.
“How can the devotees with strong eagerness endure for such a long time?” This is not a long time at all, since there are unlimited universes. The manifest pastimes continue unbroken. The devotee attains a body of a gopī in the Vṛndāvana of some other universe were the Vṛndāvana pastimes are appearing at that moment. That is the sequence.
To the devotee having great longing for direct service for a long time, who has developed prema by intense and constant rāgānuga-sādhana, the merciful Lord one time directly shows himself with his associates, with realization of service, even to a person in a sādhaka body, in a dream, though he has not developed sneha and other stages.
He gives a spiritual gopī body endowed with proper bhāvas, as he gave a spiritual body to Nārada. Then, when Kṛṣṇa and his associates appear in a manifest Vṛndāvana, that body is born in a womb of a gopī by the arrangement of yoga-māyā in order to perfect sneha and other varieties of prema.
The pastimes of Kṛṣṇa in human pastimes with gopīs born of humans are famous. Without being born as a “human,” there can be no perfection. Though Lakṣmī accepted the exalted position of the gopīs, because she did not accept the permission of the gopīs to be born in a gopī womb, Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes with her could not take place.
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains this in Raga-vartma-candrika, where he discusses taking birth in bhauma-lila to perfect one’s prema:
One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”
The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’
‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakaṭa-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.
Therefore, those devotees for whom yoga māyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on (sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, mahabhava), arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.
Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhūmi and siddha bhūmi.
Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”
Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.
He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.
Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7
In Kṛṣṇa Book, Śrīla Prabhupāda confirms the truth of this new beginning:
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vṛndāvana līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. KB, Chapter 28, Releasing Nanda Mahārāja from the Clutches of Varuṇa
So we see here clearly that the forms bestowed upon the prema-bhaktas in bhauma-lila, which they attain by taking birth from a nitya-siddha gopi, simply facilitate the expression and further development of the bhava and preliminary prema that was developed by the sadhaka and then awarded by Krsna previously. The devotee has to further perfect their prema in the direct association of the Vraja-vasi and especially Radha and Krsna.
HP: <Thus, when some ācāryas say that prema is eternally dormant in the heart of the jīva, the meaning is that it is dormant in the hearts of *THESE ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODIES*. Each spiritual body in the spiritual world has all sense organs, including a heart. Prema is intrinsically and eternally present in that very heart that the jīva possesses in the spiritual world. The ācāryas never say that prema is dormant in the conditioned heart of the material body of the jīva. The eternally existing spiritual body is thus the upādāna-kāraṇa (substantial cause) and the mercy of Bhagavān or the nitya-siddha is the nimitta-kāraṇa (instrumental cause) of the manifestation of prema. In this way, the apparent contradictory opinions are harmonized, and such harmonization should be sought by all sāragrāhī vaiṣṇavas.>
US: This idea, and your additional comments, have to be the most bizarre unfounded speculation I’ve ever heard in these discussions, and based on all the evidence I’ve provided above regarding how bhava is actually attained and how prema is developed, it is blatantly obvious that your idea has no basis in sastra or the teachings of the previous acaryas. It is pure speculation and not at all in sync with what the acaryas have taught.
We don’t have to speculate. Especially not like this. It was clearly stated by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura what the facts are. Who is going to challenge them, or argue with their conclusions, or try to spin them?
Prema exists in the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. Nowhere is it said that prema exists in the hearts of unoccupied spiritual bodies in the spiritual world. Those spiritual bodies do NOT have prema. There is no sastric support for that strange idea. Those bodies are not living persons with emotions. Prema comes from the hearts of living jivas - either nitya-siddhas or sadhana-siddhas - not a so-called actual pumping heart in an unoccupied spiritual body. You are mixing up material concepts with spiritual reality. Not good. Very dangerous and very convoluted.
Prema does not exist without some sort of relationship with Krsna and a relationship cannot exist without it coming from a living jiva - not an unoccupied body. Unoccupied spiritual bodies do not have relationships with Krsna, thus they cannot have prema. That is rather absurd.
The spiritual body is simply the medium for participating in the lila and expressing all the prema and bhavas that entered the heart of the jiva when they attained bhava in their previous life. The jiva becomes one with that body. Bhava and prema come from the hearts of jivas - not directly from the bodies - via the bodies. The spiritual bodies in Vraja lila are made of pure bhava and they are capable of fully expressing the bhavas and prema that the sadhana-siddha is developing and experiencing.
HP: <If prema were to be "introduced" to the jīva at a certain point of time by an external agency, then such prema will also have to be introduced in the heart of the eternal spiritual body that the jīva is going to get post liberation. That event itself will change the constitution of the eternal spiritual body, and a body which has undergone a fundamental constitutional change will cease to fall in the category of "eternal". Vipariṇāma (transformation) is a function of the material world, not the spiritual world.>
US: This is a good example of how wild baseless speculation beyond one’s adhikara leads to more strange and mistaken ideas like these, none of which have any support in sastra or from the previous acaryas. And yes - that is a vada comment. ;-) Where is the sastric or acarya support for these speculations?
HP: <Thus, when it is said that prema is "bestowed" by a nitya-siddha devotee, it only means that the nitya-siddha devotee bestows a realization of that specific flavor and those specific details of the prema that is already dormant in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body that is waiting to be assigned to the jīva post liberation. It doesn't mean that the nitya-siddha literally pours half a gallon of prema in the heart of the conditioned jīva. >
US: No it does not mean that or anything remotely close to that as we now know by simply studying the commentaries of the previous acaryas as I have posted. None of what you said can be supported by guru, sadhu and sastra.
HP: <The nitya-siddha cannot bestow prema in the conditioned heart of the material body, since the conditioned heart is a product of māyā and is thus an unfit container for receiving prema. Neither can the nitya-siddha generate such prema in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body, because such a body is already eternally perfect and is simply waiting in a dormant state in the spiritual world. Therefore, the "bestowing" of prema by a nitya-siddha devotee is nothing but revelation of the eternal perfected identity (siddha deha) that exists already in the spiritual world.>
US: You clearly do not understand how prema is attained and who bestows it and how it enters the heart and mind of the jiva. That much is obvious. Krsna bestows bhava-bhakti and one’s prema develops preliminarily from that stage after one’s sthayi-bhava begins to manifest, while one is still in this material body. These details are all in the later sections of Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and specifically having to do with rasa. The full stages of prema can only be developed in bhauma-lila in direct association with all the Vraja-vasis.
We saw in the references from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu above that bhava-bhakti is the goal (sadhya-bhakti) of sadhana-bhakti, and that is the ray of prema. The key point to understand is this. Prema is not generic. It is specific to each type of relationship with Krsna, either in Vaikuntha or Vraja lila. And in Vraja lila there are many flavors - see the attached chart.
Vraja prema is the goal (prayojana) taught by Lord Caitanya and the process (abhidheya) He taught was raganuga-bhakti. Nothing else. To become qualified to practice raganuga-bhakti, one must first develop a genuine intense desire for the raga and bhava of a particular Vraja-vasi that one has chosen. It is not pre-determined. No acaryas teach that one’s relationship is predetermined or inherent.
One’s desired relationship and identity is developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga (which is the influential component) and sadhana, as explained by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. If one’s relationship was inherent and simply had to be uncovered, that fact would have been explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, which is the handbook for Gaudiya Vaisnavas.
The acaryas would have explained it clearly and simply, ie: just uncover what is already there. It’s easy enough for them to say that. Not complicated. Yet we do not find anything remotely like that statement anywhere in the books of the previous acaryas. Nowhere. Nothing.
From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas. [end]
Then, when has matured, Krsna awards one’s desired relationship and identity at the stage of bhava and that is when actual transcendental bhakti begins, ie: bhava-bhakti. Only from that stage can one develop one’s sthayi-bhava, which is essential for one to manifest the first stages of prema. These details are all explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu.
That is the process taught by Lord Caitanya and all the acaryas. The stage of bhava is only attained when Krsna awards it:
Bhakti (bhāva) is rarely obtained: Bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways: if undertaken in great quantity but without attachment, bhakti cannot be attained even after a long time, and even if practiced with attachment, Kṛṣṇa does not give bhakti (bhava) to the practitioner immediately. BRS, 1.1.35
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
By doing all practices through all stages starting with śraddhā, but without attaining āsakti (deep attachment), bhāva-bhakti cannot be attained. That is because it is stated that rati or bhāva appears only after āsakti. However, even with all sādhana and āsakti, the Lord does not quickly give bhāva-bhakti. He does give bhāva, but after a delay. In this way, bhāva-bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways. [end]
One attains svarupa-siddhi at the stage of bhava, ie: one attains the siddha-deha that one has been meditating on during raganuga-sadhana-bhajana. From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
So you have to have a clear conception of what kind of relationship you want to have with Krsna in Vraja, along with the details of your identity through which that relationship will be exchanged. Prema is dependent upon the type of relationship you desire so the relationship comes first and then the prema after. If you do not have a clear conception of all these desires then you can’t really begin the process. Here are more references which elaborate on that idea:
The supreme Lord has no favorite and no dearmost friend, nor does He consider anyone undesirable, despicable or fit to be neglected. All the same, He lovingly reciprocates with His devotees in whatever manner they worship Him, just as the trees of heaven fulfill the desires of whoever approaches them. SB, 10.38.22
From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
The words yathā tathā mean that Kṛṣṇa responds to His devotees according to how they worship Him. This is in accordance with His statement: “As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly.” (BG, 4.11)
The words sura-drumo yadvad (like a heavenly desire tree) indicate how the various degrees of fruits awarded correspond to the various degrees of shelter taken. As there is no discrepancy if the kalpa-vṛkṣa (desire tree) does not give fruits to a person who does not take shelter of it, similarly it is so in the case of the Supreme Lord. However, whereas the Lord is dependent upon His surrendered devotees, the kalpa-vṛkṣa is not dependent on those who take shelter of it. Therefore, according to the devotion, Kṛṣṇa shows friendship, enmity or neutrality.
Nārada explains to Gopa-kumāra in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta:
According to the way one worships, the Lord awards different results. One who thus reaches the goal he has pursued never feels discontent. BB, 2.4.189
Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
The Personality of Godhead knows everything there is to know. He is also the most merciful giver of charity. Why then doesn’t He give the same supreme happiness to all His devotees? It is because what He gives them depends on their expressed desires.
Then aren’t the devotees dissatisfied who receive happiness that is relatively less? No. When the Supreme Lord reciprocates the love of any of His pure devotees, the devotee is never left feeling incomplete, because everything the devotee wanted the Lord provides.
HP: <Some gurus bestow this perfected identity at the time of dīkṣā and this is known as siddha-praṇālī.>
US: And that particular type of siddha-pranali is consider bogus by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada. No guru bestows a perfected identity on anyone. That is not possible and none of the purva acaryas have taught that or were taught that by Lord Caitanya. A guru does not impose or bestow an identity or relationship on a disciple. That is not the process taught by Lord Caitanya or the previous acaryas.
And how would any guru know what a disciple’s spiritual identity is in the first place if it hasn’t even developed yet? It’s quite ridiculous when you know how the abhidheya actually works and was taught by Lord Caitanya.
HP: <Some other gurus do not bestow it at the time of dīkṣā and expect the sādhaka to achieve the direct mercy of Bhagavān in order to get the revelation of their siddha-deha. Both processes work equally well.>
US: How can that be possible if a guru cannot bestow a perfected identity on anyone?
HP: <In this way, the two differing opinions of previous ācāryas are harmonized. A devotee faithful to his guru-janas should not think that his gurus merely gave some temporary siddhānta in this regard according to time, place and circumstance. If it is possible to reconcile and justify the views of one's guru-janas from śāstra, then the disciple should definitely take that route.>
US: I’m afraid I can’t agree with your conclusion that you have reconciled this issue. Far from it, actually, as the clear irrefutable evidence I’ve provided from guru, sadhu and sastra proves conclusively. Your ideas may be well meaning and I don’t doubt your sincerity or intentions, but you have seriously misunderstood some very important aspects of this esoteric topic.
After writing my responses, I posted two additional references in support of my statements. Here they are:
Two more references from the Vedanta-sutras and Priti-sandarbha for good measure:
VS, 3.3.29
Sometimes ruci-bhakti, using knowledge of His sweetness, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Sometimes vidhi-bhakti, using knowledge of the Lord’s power, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Which of these is the cause of attaining Him, since the two are different, caused by difference in the object of worship?
Sutra: By the will of the Lord, both paths of bhakti exist. There is no confusion about method, because of scriptural statements concerning both paths.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:
The word na (not) is understood from sutra 3.3.22. Both types of bhakti exist for jivas of either type, because of the will of the Lord, arising by association with devotees of these types. Thus, it is not true that it is impossible to have advancement. Why? Because permission is given in statements concerning these two methods.
The meaning is this. Worship of the Lord’s eternal qualities of two types, starting from groups of eternal associates, spreads to the sadhakas like the flow of the Ganga from heaven to earth. When the jivas of this universe get the chance to have devotee association (of one of these two types), the Lord, who relishes bhakti, desires to inspire these persons who have had devotional association to have attraction to His qualities. These jivas follow the Lord by that particular path. The devotees who give mercy to the jivas are understood to be madhyamas.
An intermediate or second-class devotee, called madhyama-adhikari, offers his love to the Supreme Lord, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to the ignorant people who are innocent, and disregards those who are envious of the Lord. SB, 11.2.46
Therefore, one cannot accuse the Lord of being partial (since the devotee gives the mercy).
From Jiva Gosvami's Priti-sandarbha:
Furthermore, we will also speak (show) that the prema of a devotee with a specific identity appears from the very nature of Bhagavan. All the manifestations (prakasas) of Bhagavan that are self-perfect are eternally existing in Bhagavan himself. This is shown in Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, etc. Also, in the agamas various types of worship are heard. In that regard, whichever prakasa [is considered], accordingly, the priti with a specific identity arises. *The cause for the specificity of the prakasa is the association of a specific devotee only.*
You’ll have to provide direct unequivocal sastra and statements from the purva acaryas indicating that a pre-existing relationship with Krsna in one of His lilas is part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas.
HP: However, the Prīti-sandarbha quote above has clearly mentioned that it is "lopa" (disappearance) of that jñāna which is nitya-guṇa (intrinsic quality) of the jīva. Clearly, the terms abhāva (lack) and lopa (disappearance) do not tally with each other. Neither does anyone have the eyes to look into the window of anādi-kāla and determine if it was abhāva (lack) or lopa (disappearance) of intrinsic jñāna of the jīva which caused its bondage in this world.
US: There was no ‘cause’ like that for the jiva’s bondage in the material worlds. Sastra doesn’t teach that, and neither does Krsna nor the purva acaryas. The tatastha-sakti jivas were manifest from Paramatma specifically to assist in the manifestation of sristi-lila - the material worlds. And that is for Krsna’s pleasure, since He can do things in these worlds that He cannot do in the spiritual world.
And that requires tatastha-sakti jivas who are given all facilities for pleasure in these worlds. Unless of course they screw up and do bad things, in which case, they are responsible and suffer for their own actions.
Here is what Krsna and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura teach:
O intelligent Uddhava! The bondage of the jiva, who is my one part or tatastha-sakti, by avidya, *is without beginning*. By vidya, he achieves liberation which has a beginning. SB, 11.11.4
From the commentary by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura:
Bondage and liberation of My śakti, the jīva, which are apparent only, is caused by My avidyā-śakti, which produces the imposition of the body, and liberation is produced by My vidyā-śakti which removes the imposition of the body. This is brought about under the influence of My śakti which functions for the pastime of creation and destruction of the universe.
The jīva-śakti exists in various conditions in various bodies by māyā-śakti. *From the statement of Viṣṇu-purana, it is understood that the jīva-śakti is generally controlled by māyā-śakti for accomplishing the pastime of creation of the universe.* That is stated in the verse. The jīva is bound by avidyā. *Avidyā is beginningless because karma is beginningless*. When liberation takes place, avidyā has an end for that particular jīva. Liberation, because it is produced, has a beginning. But because it is indestructible, it has no end.
HP: <In the same Prīti-sandarbha, it is specified that although the jīva is in a conditioned state right now, but there is a potential eternal spiritual body waiting since time immemorial to be assigned to the jīva in the spiritual world. This is specified in the Prīti-sandarbha as follows — anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante, tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtiḥ bhagavatā kriyate — "Unlimited [eternal] bodily forms exist in Vaikuṇṭha. Out of those unlimited eternal forms, the liberated soul is assigned one form by Bhagavān". — (Prīti-sandarbha, 10)
These potential bodies in the spiritual world are all eternal, because the Bhagavat-sandarbha firmly establishes the siddhānta that in the spiritual world none of the spiritual bodies are ever "created" at a certain point of time. They are all eternally existing. Creation of new bodies does not take place in the spiritual world. This means that the potential eternal spiritual bodies of all the conditioned jīvas are already waiting in the spiritual world. These spiritual bodies are replete with all spiritual guṇas (qualities), and are merely waiting to be assigned to the jīva by the mercy of Bhagavān as and when these jīvas become fully accepted by Bhagavān. >
US: Once again, context is important. This section of the Priti-sandarbha deals specifically and ONLY with the five types of mukti by which one attains Vaikuntha, and this specific section is referring to sarupya-mukti, ie: desiring a form like the Lord’s form - a four-armed form. Those forms mentioned are forms like Visnu’s or His other expansions, which are desired by those mukta-jivas. We read about that in Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita, when Gopa-kumara visits Vaikuntha.
And are we supposed to think or assume that those who desire these various types of liberation in Vaikuntha, had those desires intrinsically in their hearts all along just waiting to burst out? That makes no sense. Those mukta-jivas are simply fulfilling their own personal desires for the type of liberation they cultivated during their sadhana, which developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga and sadhana.
And Vaikuntha prema is limited to santa, dasya, and a bit of sakhya for the residents, and those types of prema are not even close to the same level as Vraja prema, which is the highest attainment and involves a very different process.
What is described in that section of Priti-sandarbha is not the method for attaining an eternal form in Vraja lila, which is an entirely different process, as explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentaries to Ujjvala-nilamani and Raga-vartma-candrika, as well as Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Jaiva-dharma and Hari-nama-cintamani.
From Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary in Ujjvala-nilamani, 3.51:
“If those present day persons practicing rāgānuga attain prema in some birth by going through the states of niṣṭhā, ruci, and āsakti, they become qualified for service to the Lord. At the time of leaving the body, will they attain the positions of associates beyond the material world, or participate when the Lord descends as avatāra?”
Since it is impossible for the transformations of prema such as sneha, māna, praṇaya to appear in the body of a sādhaka, by the power of associating in gopī bodies with nitya-siddha gopīs having mahābhāva, and by seeing, hearing, remembering and chanting about the qualities of the Lord, they will certainly attain such a position. Since these methods are very powerful, without them one cannot attain perfection as a gopī.
The young gopīs took the greatest pleasure in seeing Govinda come home, since for them even a moment was like a hundred yugas. SB 10.19.16
The meaning is this. Who are the gopīs? Those for whom a moment seemed like a hundred yugas attained the supreme bliss. Truṭir yugāyate: Half a second becomes as long as an entire age for us. (SB 10.31.15) This is a characteristic of mahābhāva. It is not seen that the sādhakas of this world enter into the pastimes of Vṛndāvana unmanifest in this world, whereas it is seen that the siddhas enter to those pastimes.
Thus it is only a place for siddhas, for stages like sneha do not quickly manifest by one’s own sādhana. Thus, by yogamāyā, devotees who have developed prema join at the time of Kṛṣṇa’s avatāra in the manifestation of Vṛndāvana in this world as a preliminary attainment. This can be inferred by seeing that sādhakas, various materialistic persons and siddhās all enter this earthly Vṛndāvana. It is the place for sādhakas and siddhas, where they can perfect their bhāvas before associating directly with Kṛṣṇa.
“How can the devotees with strong eagerness endure for such a long time?” This is not a long time at all, since there are unlimited universes. The manifest pastimes continue unbroken. The devotee attains a body of a gopī in the Vṛndāvana of some other universe were the Vṛndāvana pastimes are appearing at that moment. That is the sequence.
To the devotee having great longing for direct service for a long time, who has developed prema by intense and constant rāgānuga-sādhana, the merciful Lord one time directly shows himself with his associates, with realization of service, even to a person in a sādhaka body, in a dream, though he has not developed sneha and other stages.
He gives a spiritual gopī body endowed with proper bhāvas, as he gave a spiritual body to Nārada. Then, when Kṛṣṇa and his associates appear in a manifest Vṛndāvana, that body is born in a womb of a gopī by the arrangement of yoga-māyā in order to perfect sneha and other varieties of prema.
The pastimes of Kṛṣṇa in human pastimes with gopīs born of humans are famous. Without being born as a “human,” there can be no perfection. Though Lakṣmī accepted the exalted position of the gopīs, because she did not accept the permission of the gopīs to be born in a gopī womb, Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes with her could not take place.
Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains this in Raga-vartma-candrika, where he discusses taking birth in bhauma-lila to perfect one’s prema:
One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”
The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’
‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakaṭa-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.
Therefore, those devotees for whom yoga māyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on (sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, mahabhava), arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.
Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhūmi and siddha bhūmi.
Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”
Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.
He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.
Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7
In Kṛṣṇa Book, Śrīla Prabhupāda confirms the truth of this new beginning:
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vṛndāvana līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. KB, Chapter 28, Releasing Nanda Mahārāja from the Clutches of Varuṇa
So we see here clearly that the forms bestowed upon the prema-bhaktas in bhauma-lila, which they attain by taking birth from a nitya-siddha gopi, simply facilitate the expression and further development of the bhava and preliminary prema that was developed by the sadhaka and then awarded by Krsna previously. The devotee has to further perfect their prema in the direct association of the Vraja-vasi and especially Radha and Krsna.
HP: <Thus, when some ācāryas say that prema is eternally dormant in the heart of the jīva, the meaning is that it is dormant in the hearts of *THESE ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODIES*. Each spiritual body in the spiritual world has all sense organs, including a heart. Prema is intrinsically and eternally present in that very heart that the jīva possesses in the spiritual world. The ācāryas never say that prema is dormant in the conditioned heart of the material body of the jīva. The eternally existing spiritual body is thus the upādāna-kāraṇa (substantial cause) and the mercy of Bhagavān or the nitya-siddha is the nimitta-kāraṇa (instrumental cause) of the manifestation of prema. In this way, the apparent contradictory opinions are harmonized, and such harmonization should be sought by all sāragrāhī vaiṣṇavas.>
US: This idea, and your additional comments, have to be the most bizarre unfounded speculation I’ve ever heard in these discussions, and based on all the evidence I’ve provided above regarding how bhava is actually attained and how prema is developed, it is blatantly obvious that your idea has no basis in sastra or the teachings of the previous acaryas. It is pure speculation and not at all in sync with what the acaryas have taught.
We don’t have to speculate. Especially not like this. It was clearly stated by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura what the facts are. Who is going to challenge them, or argue with their conclusions, or try to spin them?
Prema exists in the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. Nowhere is it said that prema exists in the hearts of unoccupied spiritual bodies in the spiritual world. Those spiritual bodies do NOT have prema. There is no sastric support for that strange idea. Those bodies are not living persons with emotions. Prema comes from the hearts of living jivas - either nitya-siddhas or sadhana-siddhas - not a so-called actual pumping heart in an unoccupied spiritual body. You are mixing up material concepts with spiritual reality. Not good. Very dangerous and very convoluted.
Prema does not exist without some sort of relationship with Krsna and a relationship cannot exist without it coming from a living jiva - not an unoccupied body. Unoccupied spiritual bodies do not have relationships with Krsna, thus they cannot have prema. That is rather absurd.
The spiritual body is simply the medium for participating in the lila and expressing all the prema and bhavas that entered the heart of the jiva when they attained bhava in their previous life. The jiva becomes one with that body. Bhava and prema come from the hearts of jivas - not directly from the bodies - via the bodies. The spiritual bodies in Vraja lila are made of pure bhava and they are capable of fully expressing the bhavas and prema that the sadhana-siddha is developing and experiencing.
HP: <If prema were to be "introduced" to the jīva at a certain point of time by an external agency, then such prema will also have to be introduced in the heart of the eternal spiritual body that the jīva is going to get post liberation. That event itself will change the constitution of the eternal spiritual body, and a body which has undergone a fundamental constitutional change will cease to fall in the category of "eternal". Vipariṇāma (transformation) is a function of the material world, not the spiritual world.>
US: This is a good example of how wild baseless speculation beyond one’s adhikara leads to more strange and mistaken ideas like these, none of which have any support in sastra or from the previous acaryas. And yes - that is a vada comment. ;-) Where is the sastric or acarya support for these speculations?
HP: <Thus, when it is said that prema is "bestowed" by a nitya-siddha devotee, it only means that the nitya-siddha devotee bestows a realization of that specific flavor and those specific details of the prema that is already dormant in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body that is waiting to be assigned to the jīva post liberation. It doesn't mean that the nitya-siddha literally pours half a gallon of prema in the heart of the conditioned jīva. >
US: No it does not mean that or anything remotely close to that as we now know by simply studying the commentaries of the previous acaryas as I have posted. None of what you said can be supported by guru, sadhu and sastra.
HP: <The nitya-siddha cannot bestow prema in the conditioned heart of the material body, since the conditioned heart is a product of māyā and is thus an unfit container for receiving prema. Neither can the nitya-siddha generate such prema in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body, because such a body is already eternally perfect and is simply waiting in a dormant state in the spiritual world. Therefore, the "bestowing" of prema by a nitya-siddha devotee is nothing but revelation of the eternal perfected identity (siddha deha) that exists already in the spiritual world.>
US: You clearly do not understand how prema is attained and who bestows it and how it enters the heart and mind of the jiva. That much is obvious. Krsna bestows bhava-bhakti and one’s prema develops preliminarily from that stage after one’s sthayi-bhava begins to manifest, while one is still in this material body. These details are all in the later sections of Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and specifically having to do with rasa. The full stages of prema can only be developed in bhauma-lila in direct association with all the Vraja-vasis.
We saw in the references from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu above that bhava-bhakti is the goal (sadhya-bhakti) of sadhana-bhakti, and that is the ray of prema. The key point to understand is this. Prema is not generic. It is specific to each type of relationship with Krsna, either in Vaikuntha or Vraja lila. And in Vraja lila there are many flavors - see the attached chart.
Vraja prema is the goal (prayojana) taught by Lord Caitanya and the process (abhidheya) He taught was raganuga-bhakti. Nothing else. To become qualified to practice raganuga-bhakti, one must first develop a genuine intense desire for the raga and bhava of a particular Vraja-vasi that one has chosen. It is not pre-determined. No acaryas teach that one’s relationship is predetermined or inherent.
One’s desired relationship and identity is developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga (which is the influential component) and sadhana, as explained by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. If one’s relationship was inherent and simply had to be uncovered, that fact would have been explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, which is the handbook for Gaudiya Vaisnavas.
The acaryas would have explained it clearly and simply, ie: just uncover what is already there. It’s easy enough for them to say that. Not complicated. Yet we do not find anything remotely like that statement anywhere in the books of the previous acaryas. Nowhere. Nothing.
From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas. [end]
Then, when has matured, Krsna awards one’s desired relationship and identity at the stage of bhava and that is when actual transcendental bhakti begins, ie: bhava-bhakti. Only from that stage can one develop one’s sthayi-bhava, which is essential for one to manifest the first stages of prema. These details are all explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu.
That is the process taught by Lord Caitanya and all the acaryas. The stage of bhava is only attained when Krsna awards it:
Bhakti (bhāva) is rarely obtained: Bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways: if undertaken in great quantity but without attachment, bhakti cannot be attained even after a long time, and even if practiced with attachment, Kṛṣṇa does not give bhakti (bhava) to the practitioner immediately. BRS, 1.1.35
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
By doing all practices through all stages starting with śraddhā, but without attaining āsakti (deep attachment), bhāva-bhakti cannot be attained. That is because it is stated that rati or bhāva appears only after āsakti. However, even with all sādhana and āsakti, the Lord does not quickly give bhāva-bhakti. He does give bhāva, but after a delay. In this way, bhāva-bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways. [end]
One attains svarupa-siddhi at the stage of bhava, ie: one attains the siddha-deha that one has been meditating on during raganuga-sadhana-bhajana. From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
So you have to have a clear conception of what kind of relationship you want to have with Krsna in Vraja, along with the details of your identity through which that relationship will be exchanged. Prema is dependent upon the type of relationship you desire so the relationship comes first and then the prema after. If you do not have a clear conception of all these desires then you can’t really begin the process. Here are more references which elaborate on that idea:
The supreme Lord has no favorite and no dearmost friend, nor does He consider anyone undesirable, despicable or fit to be neglected. All the same, He lovingly reciprocates with His devotees in whatever manner they worship Him, just as the trees of heaven fulfill the desires of whoever approaches them. SB, 10.38.22
From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
The words yathā tathā mean that Kṛṣṇa responds to His devotees according to how they worship Him. This is in accordance with His statement: “As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly.” (BG, 4.11)
The words sura-drumo yadvad (like a heavenly desire tree) indicate how the various degrees of fruits awarded correspond to the various degrees of shelter taken. As there is no discrepancy if the kalpa-vṛkṣa (desire tree) does not give fruits to a person who does not take shelter of it, similarly it is so in the case of the Supreme Lord. However, whereas the Lord is dependent upon His surrendered devotees, the kalpa-vṛkṣa is not dependent on those who take shelter of it. Therefore, according to the devotion, Kṛṣṇa shows friendship, enmity or neutrality.
Nārada explains to Gopa-kumāra in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta:
According to the way one worships, the Lord awards different results. One who thus reaches the goal he has pursued never feels discontent. BB, 2.4.189
Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
The Personality of Godhead knows everything there is to know. He is also the most merciful giver of charity. Why then doesn’t He give the same supreme happiness to all His devotees? It is because what He gives them depends on their expressed desires.
Then aren’t the devotees dissatisfied who receive happiness that is relatively less? No. When the Supreme Lord reciprocates the love of any of His pure devotees, the devotee is never left feeling incomplete, because everything the devotee wanted the Lord provides.
HP: <Some gurus bestow this perfected identity at the time of dīkṣā and this is known as siddha-praṇālī.>
US: And that particular type of siddha-pranali is consider bogus by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada. No guru bestows a perfected identity on anyone. That is not possible and none of the purva acaryas have taught that or were taught that by Lord Caitanya. A guru does not impose or bestow an identity or relationship on a disciple. That is not the process taught by Lord Caitanya or the previous acaryas.
And how would any guru know what a disciple’s spiritual identity is in the first place if it hasn’t even developed yet? It’s quite ridiculous when you know how the abhidheya actually works and was taught by Lord Caitanya.
HP: <Some other gurus do not bestow it at the time of dīkṣā and expect the sādhaka to achieve the direct mercy of Bhagavān in order to get the revelation of their siddha-deha. Both processes work equally well.>
US: How can that be possible if a guru cannot bestow a perfected identity on anyone?
HP: <In this way, the two differing opinions of previous ācāryas are harmonized. A devotee faithful to his guru-janas should not think that his gurus merely gave some temporary siddhānta in this regard according to time, place and circumstance. If it is possible to reconcile and justify the views of one's guru-janas from śāstra, then the disciple should definitely take that route.>
US: I’m afraid I can’t agree with your conclusion that you have reconciled this issue. Far from it, actually, as the clear irrefutable evidence I’ve provided from guru, sadhu and sastra proves conclusively. Your ideas may be well meaning and I don’t doubt your sincerity or intentions, but you have seriously misunderstood some very important aspects of this esoteric topic.
After writing my responses, I posted two additional references in support of my statements. Here they are:
Two more references from the Vedanta-sutras and Priti-sandarbha for good measure:
VS, 3.3.29
Sometimes ruci-bhakti, using knowledge of His sweetness, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Sometimes vidhi-bhakti, using knowledge of the Lord’s power, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Which of these is the cause of attaining Him, since the two are different, caused by difference in the object of worship?
Sutra: By the will of the Lord, both paths of bhakti exist. There is no confusion about method, because of scriptural statements concerning both paths.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:
The word na (not) is understood from sutra 3.3.22. Both types of bhakti exist for jivas of either type, because of the will of the Lord, arising by association with devotees of these types. Thus, it is not true that it is impossible to have advancement. Why? Because permission is given in statements concerning these two methods.
The meaning is this. Worship of the Lord’s eternal qualities of two types, starting from groups of eternal associates, spreads to the sadhakas like the flow of the Ganga from heaven to earth. When the jivas of this universe get the chance to have devotee association (of one of these two types), the Lord, who relishes bhakti, desires to inspire these persons who have had devotional association to have attraction to His qualities. These jivas follow the Lord by that particular path. The devotees who give mercy to the jivas are understood to be madhyamas.
An intermediate or second-class devotee, called madhyama-adhikari, offers his love to the Supreme Lord, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to the ignorant people who are innocent, and disregards those who are envious of the Lord. SB, 11.2.46
Therefore, one cannot accuse the Lord of being partial (since the devotee gives the mercy).
From Jiva Gosvami's Priti-sandarbha:
Furthermore, we will also speak (show) that the prema of a devotee with a specific identity appears from the very nature of Bhagavan. All the manifestations (prakasas) of Bhagavan that are self-perfect are eternally existing in Bhagavan himself. This is shown in Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, etc. Also, in the agamas various types of worship are heard. In that regard, whichever prakasa [is considered], accordingly, the priti with a specific identity arises. *The cause for the specificity of the prakasa is the association of a specific devotee only.*
