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Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 25, 2013 12:36:24 GMT -5
I am glad that you have highlighted several misconceptions about Raga marga in your first chapter. It seems that as long as we practice Vaidhi sadhana bhakti, questions like fall or no fall do not seem to have any consequences if answered one way or the other. However it seems patently obvious that if one aspires for the Raga marga then one first of all has to rid oneself of such misconceptions. Therefore it has to be asked since the majority of Western Vaisnavas have been heavily indoctrinated with these misconceptions and when they are enshrined in institutional law within the largest Vaisnava Organization ISKCON, what will be the result of such continued widespread misconceptions? If one sees no need for any different or special system of creating and cultivating a spiritual identity because he or she is convinced that one already exists in toto then one is stopped dead in ones tracks before even entering the Raga marga. Is therefore the fate of many to simply follow Vaidhi bhakti to its conclusion in Vaikuntha, not by informed choice or desire, but by reason of ignorance of the basic difference in the two systems and their goals?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 25, 2013 14:46:35 GMT -5
Thanks for your insightful comments. All of your points are well taken.
It's true that the fall concept completely goes against the teachings of the acaryas regarding raganuga-bhakti.
I think those practicing vaidhi who maintain such a limited and incorrect understanding may not become qualified to enter the path of raganuga, which requires a different mindset and associated understanding. Thus entrance into Vraja will not happen.
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Post by swamibvt on Jan 26, 2013 20:42:35 GMT -5
Most of them will be reborn, hopefully into a future Gaudiya environment in this world where such ideas have been retired through the preaching efforts of good souls like yourselves.
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Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 27, 2013 3:23:21 GMT -5
Most of them will be reborn, hopefully into a future Gaudiya environment in this world where such ideas have been retired through the preaching efforts of good souls like yourselves. Why say "most" surely "all" is more appropriate? This however is not the general conception in ISKCON. So much effort is made to help devotees to remember the Lord and chant the holy name at the time of death, thinking that they will "Go back to Godhead"/attain moksha on the strength of statements in sastra and Srila Prabhupada's teachings. Those devotees who have passed away are kindly thought of as having attained Goloka. No doubt any Vaisnava will start up where he left off if he does not complete his path. But if he is following Vaidhi path thinking wrongly it will lead to Goloka, you are suggesting that the Lord will intercede and instead of granting him the goal of Vaidhi, moksha in Vaikuntha, which he has achieved according to sastra by his antima smrti, instead give him another birth where he can be attracted automatically to Gaudiya principles that will ensure he takes to Raganuga sadhana which is actually the ONLY way to his desired goal of Goloka. Can I ask whether any Gaudiya Acharyas have addressed this point? Have they stated that the Lord will help a person to attain what he truly desires despite wrongly performing a different form of sadhana? Or does the Lord simply award a person moksha in Vaikuntha because sastra also states that as we surrender to Him so He rewards us. In other words if we mistakenly approach the Lord in one way is He bound to reciprocate in the way we have approached Him or does He take into consideration our wrong understandings? Often people also have the idea that one can go to Vaikuntha and be elevated from there to Goloka later on if one desires. This cannot be. Because one will be completely satisfied in Vaikuntha. So he will not desire for anything higher. Some may point to the experience of Gopa Kumar in Brhat Bhagavatamrta who visited many realms on his way to his final destination of Goloka, but can this really happen? Can someone go to Vaikuntha and be dissatisfied with it and desire elevation to Goloka? Has this been clearly answer by any Gaudiya Acharya?
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Post by swamibvt on Jan 27, 2013 5:05:44 GMT -5
They may go to Dvaraka in Goloka because of their preoccupation with Krsna. But "bhava grahi janardana" does not speak only of bhava in the highest sense. So it seems possible that one can want something and go about it the wrong way at first only to end up being rewarded with knowledge of how to do it right over time. What is more powerful, wanting the right thing or going about it the wrong way? Mahaprabhu put it this way: “An uneducated person may chant visnaya, while a sober person will chant the proper form, visnave, but Krsna will accept both forms when they are chanted with devotion."
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 13:24:40 GMT -5
The overriding principle that I have come to understand is that of one's desires. Krsna fulfills everyone's desires accordingly. In addition, if one does not have a clear conception of themselves in Vraja lila according to the principles presented by our acaryas, one is not qualified to enter there, and will be placed accordingly wherever that may be.
For example, if one desires to enter Vraja lila, but maintains a measure of aisvarya, one is not qualified for Vraja, since that mood is contrary. The acaryas are clear on that.
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tarun
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by tarun on Apr 25, 2013 15:50:58 GMT -5
Prabhupada said chant 16 rounds and follow four regulative principles and I will take you back to Godhead... but he didn't say by which route. Thank you for helping to make clear, what was almost clear.. as Gaura Keshava said so well in his first post... the total relevance of the question of the origin of the jiva.. I liked to follow the arguments, but it never came into such clarity, the importance of the question of a fall from Vaikuntha.. About a year ago at Balaram's appearance day celebrations, the devotees here read pastimes of Baladeva that happened outside of Vrindavan... I kept passively waiting for some Vrindavan nectar, which never came... well i might have requested some Vrindavan pastimes, but since such a request would be very unusual, it was overlooked. However afterwards I got a bit more militant about the primacy of the Vrindavan lila according the Kaviraja Goswami in CC. I was surprised, very surprised to find that this was a novel idea to the devotees i spoke with.. A more prevalent idea was that we only need to execute devotional service to any form of the Godhead, and by our submission to His Will, leaving our rebellious attitudes aside, that resulted in our expulsion from paradise, we can once again join Krishna in his many wonderful pastimes in the spiritual world. Our original position is already there. Well if, say, someone does not have a real attraction to any Deity, or has one to a Vaikuntha form or Avatar, then fair enough, just continue on. But if someone opens the Bhagavatam to any place and considers all to be best, then that is a misunderstanding that's been unfortunately propagated. The focus of the lineage is overwhelmingly Vrindavan consciousness, with many lessons to take from other parts of the Bhagavatam. But simultaneously to learning lessons is following our bliss, letting our natural attraction take us there, to that side, or to the center. They had me from my first glimpse of a picture of Krishna, and it did not take long to arrive at Vrindavan pastimes as home. When i joined up, the art work of the late seventies, created to decorate Prabhupada's tenth canto translations, was blossoming onto the cover of the BTG's, which i would distribute freely on the streets. It was inconceivable to me, how anyone could not be attracted to this form of God. So Raga starts easily, but is guided and nurtured by vaidhi, like a young tree needing support. Time comes though, and it is later, though samadhi may still be a few more turns in the road, that we can venture a little further off the porch, and see what the other kids are doin. Realizing and acknowledging our ishtadeva seems a step we can take early on in the process of Raga bhakti. And also associating with like minded, affectionate and advanced Vaisnavas is very much recommended. The question of whether our spiritual body is inherent, or bestowed is an issue that will also arise. The Gaudiya Matha, or at least some sections, believe that it is inherent, and when the guru bestows ekadasa bhava, he is simply describing what the spirit body of his shishya is like. That question may or may not be important, i don't know for sure.
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Post by Uttamasloka on May 4, 2013 19:52:33 GMT -5
Nice points Tarun prabhu. You've highlighted many issues that haunt the contemporary Vaisnava community. It seems that at any point in time, there will be a mixture of such misconceptions, along with outright ignorance, fanaticism and the true clear path.
It is said that those qualified for raganuga-bhakti are very rare among the sum total of all Vaisnavas and that remains true today. You can't 'make' someone get the truths simply by explaining it. They are either ready or not - adhikara. Krsna is the ultimate gatekeeper for this confidential and esoteric path and no one can fake their way in or through it.
However, the knowledge and details were given by our acaryas by the direction of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it's time for that knowledge to be made available for those who will be blessed to receive it, understand it and put it into practical application.
I've discussed the issue of inherent or bestowed spiritual body in chapter 5.
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