sri
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Post by sri on Jul 4, 2013 22:35:01 GMT -5
I remember hearing an early 90's recording, where Srila B V Narayana Maharaj is asked a point blank question by Srimati Syamarani Didi. 'Why not choose direct ....with Sri Krsna?" The hindi word used starts with 'sam...'. I am sure you all can understand what I am saying. I am simply not uttering it, because thats out of my adhikaar to express. So the reply given by Srila Maharaj was that why would you want to desire something 'lower' when the higher is already being attained. So I think, you know there MUST be a very deep and equally compelling reason why He must have said so. I say, surely they are fully compeletely aware of all 'possibilities'. And so fully knowing these points stated by our 7 Gosvamis, they 'all' have 'choosen' to have adhika sneha towards SrimatiJi. Now, wether our worshipful Acharyas themselves made this choice, or in their Selves this was revealed one on one by Guru and Srimati Ji, this only they, who ARE in Nitya Leela know. I would say, participating in reading and imbibing from this discussion, my nishtha towards the supremacy of SrimatiJi's position amongst all, is increasing. I think, and yes this is a speculation for me, that the Manjaris, thy simply dont have time to think about " what I want"! Where is the moments time where they in their hearts remember anyone besides SrimatiJi in their hearts? Who in them will say, oh 'I' also would like to meet with Sri Krsna alone? I genuinely believe, that yes the Manjaris are tremendously maddened after Sri Krsna, AND YET THEY ARE ABLE TO SACRIFICE THIS DIRECT MEETING WHICH IS UNSURMOUNTABLE FOR ANYONE BUT THEM. They do so, because they know, that even though Sri Krsna may desire them, and they desire Sri Krsna More, STILL, FOR THE ULTIMATE SATISFACTION OF SRI KRSNA, ONLY THEIR QUEEN SRIMATIJI CAN DO SO. NOT THEM OR ANYONE ALSE. SO INSPITE OF THEIR OVERWHELMING DESIRE, THEY ARE ABLE TO CONSECRATE THIS IN TO FIRE OF SEVA UNTO SRIMATIJI. I think something like this, is the real reason. I think Sri Krsna is very crooked, and very playful. And Svayam Bhagavan! He knows our hearts better that we know ourselves. Ever hidden agenda, every sense of trying to 'be the enjoyer'. And this is for us baddha jivas. BUT OUR SRIMATIJI! OH WHAT CAN BE SAID! SHE KNOWS SRI KRSNA'S HEART BETTER THAN HE KNOWS HIMSELF. And I think, it is the supreme gift of SrimatiJi that She may allow jivas to become Her Manjari. But there are severe severe tests of 'temptation'! " oh, I want to please Sri Krsna. And He himself is calling me. He wants me, so I must go to Him! I dont have a choice! He is compelling me. Plus, even SrimatiJi wouldnt mind. So its ok." And I have a feeling, both Sri Krsna and Srimatiji will smile. Of course, why not choose SriJi ANDSri Krsna?! Yes. BUT NO! You can have your cake, but not eat it yourself, because there is no 'I' that thinks so in the Manjari's. This is an understated Secret. That our Acharyas cracked, and kept mum! Let those who have the eyes see, and let those who have ears listen. Anyway, PrabhuJi, what do I know. I am just a baddha fool speculating.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jul 5, 2013 13:45:50 GMT -5
Sri: In response to your first post...
I recently read a post on FB attributed to Srila BR Sridhara Swami where he said that in his opinion, Gaudiya Vaisnavas do not accept her approach to bhakti because it doesn’t include anyone else except her and Krsna, whereas, Krsna is always surrounded by His associates. Plus, she doesn’t follow any accepted authorities as her guides. Something to that effect.
According to BRS, it appears that her bhakti could be classified under kamanuga-bhakti as sambhogeccatmika-bhakti - desiring a direct conjugal relationship with Krsna.
But the fact is that the acaryas have NOT favored manjari-bhava as ‘the most high’. There is no such overt favoritism in BRS, UN, BS or any of their books. They do express their own individual ‘personal’ aspirations in that context because they are speaking from their own direct experience, but they never say it is the highest or that everyone should aspire for it. You would expect to find many references to support your statements, but they are not there.
Safety and such sacrifices are irrelevant concerns in these matters. That is not a factor to be considered. According to tattva, we understand the underlying nature of Radha’s supreme position, but in the lila, it unfolds in a way that is not so philosophically structured. According to Ramanada Raya in CC, Radha derives millions of times more pleasure by arranging for Her sakhis to meet with Krsna, even though they are all doing the same thing for Her. It is a unique loving reciprical exchange. And Krsna wants it all, even though Radha is the highest. All of the gopis desire to give pleasure to Krsna and He reciprocates fully.
And the important thing to understand is that ALL of Radha’s sakhis are engaged in assisting Radha’s connections with Krsna, not just the manjaris, and they ALL experience Her bhavas in relation to Krsna (tat-tad-bhavecchatmika-bhakti), not just the manjaris. I provided the sastric support for this in chapter 5, which clears up these predominant misconceptions and incomplete understanding of the truth.
It’s true that the other three rasas - dasya, sakhya and vatsalya - are not dealt with in the same detail as madhurya, but that is partially due to the fact that it was Lord Caitanya’s special gift to everyone that madhurya-rasa would be revealed to a more complete extent for the first time. He instructed Rupa Gosvami and others to expand this information for us all.
And your attraction to vatsalya should be nourished and not set aside thinking that there is something higher, which is another misconception by many devotees, ie: we should choose to be manjaris because it’s the highest rasa. One’s choice of a relationship with Krsna is never to be made on such grounds according to the acaryas. That is a fully mundane and mistaken approach.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jul 5, 2013 14:02:48 GMT -5
Sri: regarding your second post...
Prabhu, your sentiments are understandable, but as you say, you are just speculating and that is very clear. If you read and study the lila you'll see that it isn't quite exactly the way you speculate. You are imposing many mundane sentiments on these affairs and therein lie the deficiencies in your ideas and conclusions.
The fact is that the manjaris do have intimate connections with Krsna from time to time and once again, ALL of Radha's sakhis are making arrangements for Her connections with Krsna, not just the manjaris. You are making the typical mistake of only including the manjaris in these activities when it is absolutely NOT the case.
The sentiments you've expressed about their mindsets are not fully in sync with how they are presented in the lila books, which I suggest you study for a more complete understanding. I'm not going to go into the fine details about these affairs because it's not appropriate on this forum. Just read about what pastimes take place at Radha-kunda every single day and every single night during the rasa-lila. The reality of the sakhis and gopis and manjaris is very different from your descriptions. Ujjvala-nilamani with the commentaries of Jiva Gosvami and VCT also presents the actual details of the truth of these matters and it is not as you speculate.
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sri
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Post by sri on Jul 5, 2013 22:49:06 GMT -5
For me personally, Prabhuji you are playing a role of a great teacher testing the students. To see how much they have really learned. In this role, that I am projecting onto you your position to me is the instructions of the tempter, like Lucifer, of the Gnostics. Not the ones that some catholics confuse with some 'devil'. So thank you for bringing my lust out to examination. So, that you say the position of a p-sakhi is possible, and its the same or 'better' or 'more' is very valuable. so now this is an amazing test. That 99.9% I will fail in I imagine. But still there is that 0.1 chance of success. And personally, I would rather be reduced to ashes, than aspire for direct contact with Sri Krsna. Why do I say so? Because I know who I am. I know my fallen ego. I know this very mind is the cause of bondage and liberation. I know how sly, conniving, betrayer-of-the-atma I really am. The way I see it, I am saying, from this position of being a baddha jiva, if I fall into this trap (and yes to me, it very much is a trap) of projecting my 'desire' to give Ananda to Sri Krsna directly, then I have failed completely. I have failed because of my false material rasa projections in the transcendental realm, and I will never allow that to happen, with the grace of SrimatiJi. Meerabai Devi, and yes, those jivatmas of that high bhakti, they can do whatsoever they like. Who can understand their transcendental ' stainlessness'. I remember reading, that even apsaras in heaven, even they are not tainted by the doshas that apply in the material realm. There is Urvashi and Arjuna samvad in Indra loka where the position of apsaras is explained. I read this in a tika somewhere. However, I feel somehow, maybe its only wild irrational speculation as you might say, but the world is created by Sacrifice. And it is sustained by sacrifice. And into sacrifice it returns. To me, nothing is more important that to understand why it is fundamental to 'sacrifice' you own personal enjoyer position 100%. Once I heard froma siddha Mahapurusha of Vrindavan. Hw was speaking about a prasanga, a talk between SrimstiJi and Her Sakhi. And SreeJi is telling her that somehow She is managing to control Her VirahaAgni from coming out of Her Heart. Even if an ansha of this fire came out of Her heart, it would be like the fire of destruction of unlimited universes. Meaning, to be a Manjari, it not just about handling Ananda, but its being able to tolerate being in the Heat of the presence of Srimatiji! I would say, only the Manjaris who SrimatiJi has blessed, can be close to Her! This is the price! Can you handle the Heat?! Before the pot can hold cool water, it needs to be able to hold the blazing fire of the furnace. Then its prepared. Too often one might imagine that its all easy to just read and aspire for your seva with Sri Krsna. But are we forgetting our place? Who is Srimatiji? HERSELF SHAKTI. AND WE WILL ALWAYS BE JIVAS. To think, that a jiva can give more Ananda to Sri Krsna than SrimatiJi, goes against all logic. All I see here is my lust is caught. So I examine myself, oh you want direct contact with Him? Who are you?! Such a high opinion you have of yourself?! Are you sure there is no ulterior motive hiding behind this position? For me, if I take this position of a P-sakhi, then it is. You see, right now I am in maya. There is not one dosha that I dont have. Kama, krodha, lobha evrrything I have in huge amounts. So before my ego is beheaded, I can never be sure of my genuine-ness. All my sincerity is fake. All my reasoning is tainted. All my tarka and intrrpretation is skewed. All my projections will thus lead me to Hell instead of Goloka. For me, the best and most effective transmutation of my sexuality, is to one day aspire to be in service of our Acharyas, in the position of what they are, manjaris. And Vatsalya is precicely a step of that I can handle. The Mother is an incredible example of transmutation of the sexual forces. She is creating life within herself, by sublimation of her base desires into the gold, the child. To give birth to yourself, the second birth into the spiritual body, this lust must be transmuted into Love. And for me, that means offering my everything 100% into Her seva. And that absolutely included this desire for direct contact with Sri Krsna. EVERYTHING AS SRIMATIJI SAYS. I ASPIRE TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE ONLY HER AND ONLY HER IS MY CONCERN. Even if as you say Prabhuji, that the p-sakhi position is higher, still I will go with following our Acharyas. I dont have such confidence that you have, where you say "I dont care if I stand alone". I wouldnt want to stand alone Prabhuji. If I cant serve my Siksha Gurus up there as I serve down here, then I will consider myself ruined. How will I show my face to my Gurudeva? All I really want Iis to be able to be in a position where I can show Sri Krsna, oh hamare Mohan, what do we have? We are nothing but worthless Dasis of our SrimatiJi. Oh its Her Prema that you seek, but we cant give you what She can. And only She knows you Heart fully. So your desire for us, is actually your desire for Her. We are not separate from our Swamini. And you cannot trick us and our simple minds. We are 100% dedicated to Her. And Her only!! So I speculate.....Thank you PrabhuJi once again. For increasing my appreciation for this bhava of 100% RadhaDasyam.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jul 6, 2013 15:21:51 GMT -5
Sri: Suggestion: Please, if you would, take a minute after writing your responses to break up the single GIANT BLOCK OF TEXT into smaller, more readable paragraphs for everyone’s benefit. As it is, it is very tedious and difficult to read.
Based on the rest of your response, I’ll take that as a compliment.
I didn’t say that - VCT explained it in his commentary on UN. I am simply presenting his siddhanta for everyone’s benefit. The fact is that 99%+ of the devotees have not read UN with the commentaries of Jiva Gosvami and VCT, wherein these kinds of details are found. Nor should most devotees read UN. Only those who are genuinely qualified for raganuga-bhakti and aspiring to enter madhurya-rasa should read it.
I presented that information specifically to show that the generally promoted idea that manjari-bhava is the highest attainment for jivas and that manjaris are the best of Radha’s sakhis, is absolutely not correct according to our acaryas. I was not promoting the idea of being a priya-sakhi or that they are ‘better/higher’. I was just conveying the facts for everyone’s edification.
Everyone’s rasa is unique and according to their own individual tastes and inclinations as I explained in Chapter 5 regarding the discovery of your own rasa. You don’t choose a rasa because it is the ‘highest or best’. You follow your purified inclinations under guidance at the appropriate stages of your advancement on the path.
I don’t know you personally or your level of advancement on this path, but taking your words at face value, your sentiments appear to indicate that you are not yet ready or qualified to consider these things and thus you speculate in these ways, with an incomplete understanding of the facts of these matters.
Priya-sakhis do not aspire to have direct conjugal affairs with Krsna, because they are also part of Radha’s group, so they, like the other 4 types of sakhis in Her group, also share that common mindset. Those aspiring to be priya-sakhis follow tat-tad-bhaveccatmika-bhakti exactly like those aspiring to be manjaris. They do not follow sambhogeccatmika-bhakti like those who aspire to have direct conjugal relations with Krsna, outside of being in Radha’s group. This is explained in BRS and my book has all of these details in chapter 3.
However, as anyone who has studied the lila and rasa-sastra knows, ALL of the gopis in Vraja, including Radha’s sakhis, have the most intense kama for Krsna, ie: samartha-rati, and this is never subdued, but is the entire basis for, and essence of, madhurya-lila, which brings unlimited pleasure to Krsna.
And even though Radha’s sakhis are more concerned with connecting Her with Krsna, She relishes even more trying to connect Her sakhis with Krsna, which happens every single day and night - eternally. These are the facts. And Her sakhis do not avoid such arrangements (except the manjaris sometimes) during the daily Radha-kunda lila and nightly rasa-lila, because it brings unlimited pleasure to both Radha and Krsna, which is the ultimate goal of all the gopis - to please Radha and Krsna. Please try to understand how different this truth is from your speculations.
You are projecting one set of philosophical ideas, which are applicable to a certain level of realization, onto a realm where it does not apply. No one in Vraja - especially the gopis, thinks in terms of being the enjoyer. Their only desires are to give pleasure to Krsna and Radha, so they don’t think in terms of ‘sacrifice’. That is not the mindset in Vraja. There are no philosophical or analytical considerations in the minds of those involved in Vraja lila - it is entirely based on ragatmika-bhakti - spontaneous uncontrollable love and attachment, and the resultant ecstacies.
You are way off base here. Radha is surrounded constantly by Her asta-sakhis and priya-sakhis - Her main girlfriends. The manjaris are the attendants during these dealings so they are also present. These affairs/lilas take place primarily with ALL of Her sakhis involved and constantly in Her presence. So it is NOT only the manjaris who have to ‘take the heat’. That idea is nowhere to be found in the texts.
And once again, according to VCT, it is NOT that only the manjaris can be close to Her. That is incorrect speculation without any foundation. Read Govinda-lilamrita or Krsna-bhavanamrita and try to find any indication of these ideas - you won’t.
And to repeat myself yet again, I’m not saying these things to diminish the position of the manjaris, rather I’m trying to establish the facts and the truth against the speculations and misconceptions such as you are propounding, and which have no basis in sastra or the acaryas’ books.
Clearly you have not understood the facts and truth about priya-sakhis. Read above what I’ve explained for clarification and read the section on manjari-bhava in chapter 5 of my book again. You are wasting your time speculating with incomplete knowledge and an incorrect understanding of the facts.
And it appears from your statements that you have not reached a stage in your anartha-nivritti where you are truly ready to consider all of these details related to raganuga-bhakti, so your speculations are also premature, being thus based on so many misconceptions and incomplete knowledge.
None of Radha’s sakhis are fixed solely on Her alone to the exclusion of everyone else. That is not the correct understanding. Among the five types of Radha’s sakhis, some have asama-sneha - slightly more love for Her than Krsna - but they still have deep prema for Krsna too. The priya-sakhis and asta-sakhis have sama-sneha - equal love for both Radha and Krsna. Please take the time to study and learn the facts so you can contemplate these ideas based on the truth of these matters.
You’ve completely misconstrued my statement. Standing alone only means here among contemporary Vaisnavas who espouse incorrect ideas. And the truth is that many who are reading my book have revealed to me that they are inclined to be priya-sakhis vs being manjaris, and they are extremely grateful to learn the truth from our acaryas as I have presented it in my book.
The only way I could have written my book was by the unlimited blessings of Srila Prabhupada, and the previous acaryas, whom I worship daily as my siksa gurus. I am not standing apart from them - I am firmly fixed at their lotus feet as a humble and unworthy recipient of their mercy.
You’ve got a bit of rasabhasa going on inside your head. Are you aspring to be a manjari or to be in vatsalya-rasa? These two are not compatible rasas, so at some point, you’ll have to make up your mind. ALL of Radha’s sakhis are dedicated to both Her and Krsna, including the manjaris. Learn the facts and adjust your thinking accordingly, to avoid unwanted speculation that could damage your progress.
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sri
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Post by sri on Jul 7, 2013 1:10:50 GMT -5
Hare Krsna! Thank you for your posting PrabhuJi. I do apologise for the block text typing, I am typing from a borrowed smartphone. I dont have internet access. Regarding my Bhava aspiration, I would have to say my aspiration Is for Vatsalya, to be in the seva of the dasanudasas of Mother Yashoda and Rohini Maiiya and Nanda Baba and the Cows and the calves and the elderly Gopis. Oh! How exalted is the Prema of Maiiya towards BalaGopala! Its unimaginably great for me. I will add that this way, I can have the aspiration to serve Srila Dau Bhaiiya as 'my' son as well, along with Sri Krsna. This is what I am guided internally, what can I do? If I am wrong,then according to my progress I will be corrected. But I really love the fact, that all the elder gopis have access to the leela of both the brothers! Think about it! They can have Both the Supreme Personalities on Their laps! And internally, I know that Srila Baladeva Prabhu is even more difficult to understand that Sri Krsna! And its absolutely incredible that inside of Baladeva Prabhu, only Sri Krsna is the Enjoyer! Even when Srila Baladeva Prabhu does Raas, He is never the Enjoyer, only Sri Krsna is! How achintya and awesome is this! Who can understand Him? I cant, but I want to serve Him. He is Akhanda Guru Tattva. He IS all my siksha Gurus. Its He who is teaching me about Sri Krsna tattva! I will never forget Baladeva Prabhu, ever! Is it not a fact that its Baladeva Prabhu who manifests all the forms like Sri Krsnas pitambara,bed, slippers ....everything! And yet, He always directs evrryone to Sri Krsna, not Himself! Of course thats because He Iis literally, non-different from Sri Krsna. Also I read in BSST's the Harmoniet one amazing article. In it is said, that no one can approach Sri Krsna directly. You have to go thru Shakti, SrimatiJi. And no one can approach SrimatiJi, and SrimatiJi wont accept anyone who is not approved by Sri Baladeva Prabhu! And it is He Himself as Guru, who instructs all jivas and tells them about the Divine Couple. So I have a deep deep special relationship aspiration with Him. And this is so amazing fortune of all the gopis in the service of Mother Yahoda that they can serve them both! And the amazing part is, when you remember Dau Bhaiiya, He tells you to remember and take the name of Sri Krsna! When you remember Baladeva Prabhu, He is golden and His Heart IS Sri Krsna. How they 2 are 1 is achintya for me. So this is one point. Secondly, see the greatness of Yashoda Maata. She is the Queen of Vraja. Without Her there is no Birth and Baalya leela of Sri Krsna. She nourishes along with Mother Rohini Both the lovely Brothers. Because of Them, the gopis Have Sri Krsna! And all the gopis absolutely Love Mother Yashoda! And hoe much Mother Yashoda loves SrimatiJi! Just like her very own daughter! And under the supervision of Mother, SrimatiJi and Her sakhis cook for Sri Krsna. And Mother Yashoda and Rohini Maata know perfectly that SrimatiJi loves their son. Its not hidden from them. Impossible. Sure, from the perspective of leela, the sakhis might think that Mother does not know how much we love your Son, but both the Mother do! And they encourage actively or Iindirectly so that Sri Krsna and the Gopis desires can be fulfilled. This is what attracts me, complete selflessness of Mother Yahoda and Rohini Mata. To nourish Sri Krsna, to cook for him, to bless him to protect him to be his supreme wellwisher........! Nobody can take the place of Mother Yashoda just like nobody can take the place of SrimatiJi! And just like only SrimatiJi's Manjari sakhis can know Her glories Fully, similarly only the ones who aspire to serveMother Yashoda like so can understand a bit of Her Glories. Just like there may be 8 fold pastimes when Sri Krsna Iis older, similarly there are 8fold periods of seva by the mothers of Sri Krsna by the mother gopis. And you can imagine how intimately and selflessly a mother cares for her child! Anyone who has children knows what a blessing and gift they are! Of course there are times when they test your patience.....lol but its still completely Sacredly Divinely Wonderful. So imagine aspiring to serve Sri Krsna like you own son, under the guidance of Mother Yashoda! Now I am a bramhachari and because I was praying to Sri Bahagavan to help me with gaining His Prema, I was guided to study the Suddha Prema of the mothers of Vraja. I know that even the so caled Kama of the Gopis is not material at all. But that is not possible to understand if you dont know what true selfless love is. The so called love in this world is motivated by selfish desire. Hence the lovers fall in love and then out of it, and even murder each other! This is not love then, its something else. In this world, everyone will agree that a mothers Prema comes as close to true divine Prema as anything else that we can imagine. This is what will save me. And this is my sadhana bhajana goal. To really, really serve Sri Gopala, in the aeva of the dasas of Mother Yashoda. Then, when He grows up, He can do as He likes! But His mothers, will always be His Mothers. And He will always be Their Son.
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sri
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Post by sri on Jul 7, 2013 1:35:08 GMT -5
Oh I forgot to ask tou PrabhuJi. I would like to hear from you, your reasoning as to why the Manjaris dont want direct contact with Sri Krsna. I have heard Swami Tripurari Maharajas explanation and I am more biased towards it. But I havent understood your perspective. I know you may have explained this before, but please in simple language and simple wording could you explain it? Now I understand and accept that because this is a transcendental vishaya, and we are baddha jivas, we have to be careful. But also if confusion in some concepts exists, its not going away without facing it and discussing it respectfully amongst devotees and aspiring devotees. This is hapenning here in feel. So I am not so uncomfortable.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jul 7, 2013 14:48:03 GMT -5
Understood. No worries.
If that is your genuine aspiration then you should follow it with intense desires and incorporate those angas into your sadhana and bhajana that nourish these inclinations. Pray to your guru and Krsna for guidance.
Do you have any substantiation for that assertion? There are several references in the lila books that state that Balarama has His own group of gopis with whom He has His own private conjugal pastimes including His rasa dance. He never mixes those affairs with Krsna and His gopis though.
Srila Prabhupada stated in several places that the acarya is either the representative of Radha or Balarama/Nityananda.
I have also read in several places that Balarama represents the original principle of Sri Guru.
I have also read that the elders in Vraja are aware internally about Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis but they don’t overtly discuss them or get involved directly.
It seems very clear that vatsalya-rasa is your chosen rasa. It’s a great blessing to have such clarity in understanding your connection with Krsna in Vraja.
I have also read that besides the eternal earthly pastimes (bhauma-lila), there are multiple layers within aprakata-lila (Goloka) wherein Krsna exists eternally in each of His younger ages - balya and pauganda. These are potential destinations for those who desire eternal service in these lila contexts.
Every devotee feels that their chosen rasa/relationship is the highest and that is wholly appropriate and encouraged. I think you are very fortunate to have such a strong and clear attraction for your desired relationship with Krsna.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jul 7, 2013 16:27:51 GMT -5
Having studied this subject carefully from the most prominent literatures of our acaryas, I have come to understand this point on several layers. On the one hand the manjaris have asama-sneha, and as such, they have slightly more affection for Radha than Krsna. The priya-sakhis and asta-sakhis have sama-sneha - equal affection for both Radha and Krsna.
In addition to those foundational layers, they also tend to be younger than Radha and Her peer girlfriends/sakhis, and so in the context of the lila, their role is different. Radha’s girlfriends have a different mood in dealing with Her and Her relationship with Krsna because of their peer level connection. Whereas the manjaris are younger maidservants and attendants throughout the unfolding of these affairs.
All of the gopis in Vraja have samartha-rati, which is the highest level of rati in madhurya-rasa. It means they are absorbed and obsessed with passionate conjugal desires related to Krsna. The younger sakhis and manjaris have this rati but it is not as fully manifest or developed as with Radha and Her older sakhis and the other gopis, so their moods tend to be more shy, innocent and inexperienced in these matters as young girls often are. This is all in the context of the lila, where everyone has their unique roles to play in contributing to the endless variegatedness of madhurya-lila. These details are fully delineated in Ujjvala-nilamani and expanded by the commentaries of JG and VCT.
The older sakhis have varieties of moods too, which range from gentle to very harsh, brash, bold, controlling and passionate, etc. They interact with Radha and Krsna according to those moods and their respective relationships. Radha is fully aware of Her sakhis' samartha-rati and although they do not overtly seek to connect with Krsna directly, Radha makes those arrangements for them on a daily basis in various ways because She wants to satisfy their desires to give pleasure to Krsna and also to please Krsna. This gives Radha immense pleasure on many levels. Ramananda Raya explained this to Lord Caitanya in Madhya-lila chapter 8.
Radha’s peer sakhis, along with the manjaris, are all focused on supporting Radha and Krsna’s direct relationship - they are all on the same page in that regard. They all experience Radha’s bhavas as well, not just the manjaris, as is described in CC and Govinda-lilamrita. I have given these references in chapter 5.
So the layers of ecstasies experienced by Radha and Her sakhis are unfathomable, and both direct and indirect in nature. Among all of Radha’s sakhis, the manjaris prefer experiencing these conjugal ecstasies through Radha for all of the reasons stated herein. However, as I stated in a previous post, sometimes the manjaris do have direct conjugal relations with Krsna as stated in the UN.
Some people claim that the manjaris experience higher levels, ie: Radha’s highest mahabhava, through Radha, but this is not stated in Ujjvala-nilamani, which is the ultimate last word on madhurya-rasa. I have not found support for this assertion in any other acarya literatures either. In UN and other books it is stated that ALL of Radha’s sakhis experience Her bhavas and some also experience mahabhava directly in connection with Krsna. Other gopis in Vraja outside of Radha’s group do not reach the level of mahabhava. These are the facts from UN.
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sri
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Post by sri on Jul 11, 2013 22:39:37 GMT -5
Just a quick note regarding the question of Sri Baladeva Prabhu. Here are 2 links that explain more.http://www.scsmath.com/docs/articles/Baladev_excerpts.html and another is here:http://www.bvml.org/contemporary/AM_bt.html now this second link is very important in this context, beautiful deep insights, unfortunately the link appears dead. But please try to find out thru the google cache. I will post more on your replys in a couple of days when I have a bit more oppurtinity at internet access!
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sri
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Post by sri on Aug 12, 2013 3:56:04 GMT -5
Very different translations of the same verses: example 1. www.vrindavan-dham.com/texts/vraja_vilasa_stava.php38
By offering her betel nuts, by massaging her feet, by bringing her water, by arranging for her meetings with Lord Krsna, and by performing many other services, many gopi maidservants affectionately please Sri Radha, the great queen of Vrndavana forest. When the Divine Couple enjoy Their pastimes, these maidservants are not at all shy, even in the presence of the great gopis for whom Sri Radha is more dear than life. I take shelter of these gopi maidservants, who have Srimati Rupa-manjari as their leader.
However, here we find: sarmundo.over-blog.com/article-4137319.htmltambularpana pada-mardana payo danabhisaradibhir
vrindaranya maheshvarim priyataya yas toshayanti priyah
prana preshtha sakhi kulad api kilasankocita bhumikah
keli bhumishu rupa manjari mukhas ta dasikah samshraye.
(Vraja Vilasa Stava, 38)
I take shelter of Shri Radhika's maidservants leaded by Rupa Manjari. They constantly serve the Divine Couple by offering Them betelleaves, massaging Their feet, serving Them water and making possible Their secret rendezvous. Because these maidservants are even more dear to Vrindavana's great queen, Shrimati Radharani, than the prana preshtha sakhis (Girlfriends that are dearer to Her than life, like for example Lalita and Vishakha), She is not at all shy or feeling embarrassed before them.
example 2: kunjeshwari.com/sweettexts/English/raganuga.rarsama sneha visama sneha, na koriho dui leha kohi matra adhika sneha-gana
Srila Narottam dâs Thâkur Mahâshay has written in his Prem-Bhakti-Chandrikâ – “Do not follow the sakhis who are in the mood of sama-snehâ and vishamasnehâ; I shall discuss only the adhik-sneha sakhis. They remain constantly with Srimati Râdhârâni and indulge in charming talks about Sri Krishna – they are the narma-sakhis.
if ome checks the i beieve Kusakratha Prabhu's translation, its quite different. It doesnt convey the same idea at all. Interesting.
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sri
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Post by sri on Aug 12, 2013 10:34:05 GMT -5
Hmm, I see that in my previous post, I said that the verse "sama sneha...." will be found in the link to the pdf translated by Kusakratha Prabhu. However I now see, that the verse 4 from chapter 5, is missing. You can still find this verse in the 2011 vedabase folio. Just scroll to 'prem bhakti candrika' translated by Bhumipati Prabhu. Its chapter 5, verse 4. Could someone please post the whole verse as it is with the transliteration so everyone can see. Thanks! Anyway, this is a very high subject matter for me, but so interesting! Also, Uttamasloka Prabhu, is there a link perhaps to Prema Prayojana Prabhu's video discussing on bhav's? I would like to seeIif its possible. Is this video connected to this discussion here:http://forum.vrinda.net.pl/index.php?topic=9499 Wow,.......whats the resolution after 14 pages? My head hurts.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Aug 12, 2013 19:16:59 GMT -5
That verse is the one that is used over and over again as an attempt to establish the manjaris as the highest of Radha's sakhis. I've discussed that in detail in chapter 5 on the section on manjaris.
I don't know of any video links to Prem Prayojana discussing bhavas, nor have I read that discussion on vrnda.net.
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Post by satyaurpadd on Oct 17, 2013 10:22:38 GMT -5
Rupa Goswami: Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu iṣṭe svārasikī rāgaḥ paramāviṣṭatā bhavet | tan-mayī yā bhaved bhaktiḥ sātra rāgātmikoditā ||1.2.272 || “Rāga is defined as spontaneous, deep thirst for the object of love. Bhakti that is impelled exclusively by such a thirst is called rāgātmika-bhakti.” sā kāmarūpā sambandha-rūpā ceti bhaved dvidhā ||1.2.273 | “There are two types of rāgātmika-bhakti: impelled by conjugal feelings (kāma-rūpa) and impelled by other relationships (sambandha-rūpa).” Manjari-bhava falls into sambandha (not kamarupa-bhava) - So US's view that there is more than one way to engage with madhurya rasa is here substantiated ia600502.us.archive.org/17/items/SriBhakti-rasamrta-sindhu/RBhakti-rasmta-sindhuPart1.pdf ;D
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Post by Uttamasloka on Oct 17, 2013 15:32:47 GMT -5
Satyarupadd prabhu:
In my book in chapters 3 and 5 I have given evidence from the acaryas that manjari-bhava falls into the sub-category of kamarupa-bhakti known as tat-tad-bhavecchatmika-bhakti, ie: aspiring for the bhavas of Radha. Those aspiring to be priya-sakhis also fall into this category because in both cases, the devotees aspire to enter madhurya-rasa specifically within Radha's group (yutha), and under the guidance of an asta-sakhi or prana-sakhi (principle manjari).
As I proved in chapter 5 in the section on manjari-bhava, ALL of Radha's sakhis experience Her bhavas, not just the manjaris.
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