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Post by niscala on Dec 14, 2014 5:36:01 GMT -5
Lal: Mother Yaśodā, by the grace of the Lord, could understand the real truth. But then again, the supreme master, by the influence of the internal potency, Yoga-māyā, inspired her to become absorbed in intense maternal affection for her son.
This absorption is permanent, her sthayi bhava. When Krsna shows extraordinary powers, the residents of Vraja get some realization that He is God, but that knowledge is quickly covered by their sthayi bhava. It is not that they are ignorant- without knowledge- but that their knowledge is covered- permanently. Sthayi bhava is a permanent condition- and it controls all the other bhavas as a king controls his subjects. If some feeling that Krsna may be God due to the bhava of astonishment were to arise and threaten the sthayi bhava, it would quickly be subdued by it.
That is my understanding, from reading Bhakti Rasmrita Sindhu, where these things are explained.
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 15, 2014 0:27:51 GMT -5
Lal: Why would that knowledge of self-realization be necessary to enter Vaikuntha if once you get there you no longer remember it? What is the purpose of material existence? Knowledge of self-realization, or sambandha jnana, is necessary to begin the process of surrender to Krsna. One has to know that one is part and parcel of God, that Krsna is God and that one's constitutional position is to serve Him. As one surrenders, by the process of bhakti, one develops intense attraction to Krsna and intense delight in His service. One is no longer propelled by thoughts "This is what I am, therefore, this is what I should be doing". In order to enter into a really intimate relationship with Krsna, in a rasa other than servitude, however, knowledge of one's existential position must be covered- so that one can play with Krsna as a friend, protect Him as a parent...all with genuine feelings of friendship and superiority. Bhavas are not illusory or pretentious. It's not that the cowherd boys think "Krsna is God, unlimitedly powerful. I am just a jiva, but I will pretend to be His friend, because He likes that!" They really conceive of themselves as His equals. Similarly, His parents don't think "Krsna is God, He can kill trillions of Kaliya serpents with His glance, but I will pretend to be protective of Him" Even a slight awareness of the reality would cause these bhavas to decline, therefore they are permanently covered by Yogamaya. Even when the veil is forced up ever so slightly, due to Krsna showing His unlimited power, such as by lifting Govarhana, the cowherd men conclude otherwise- that the hill raised itself, because of Lord Narayan being pleased by the worship of Nanda M (He is their family Diety). Thus even in the most extreme cause of them being aware of the reality, they are covered. The goal of material existence is to develop love for Krsna- either intimately, without knowledge of His Godhood, or more respectfully, with knowledge of His Godhood. Vraja is unique in its aspect of intimate love. I was wondering if you could tell us where you got those ideas? I've never seen that taught in shastra. Plus it makes no sense. The idea that to completely forget spiritual knowledge somehow lessens rasa is illogical to me. It's like saying that if you are the wife of a king you cannot be his lover, or if you are his children or close friends you cannot be close. That simply isn't true. What shastra talks about when it talks about yogamaya covering over people it's in the context of the moment, not a permanent basis. The covering isn't that you lose your memory of who you are dealing with or where, rather you are made to lose your focus on those things and instead act as if Krishna is like a regular person and you are not under his control. That is the important part, not forgetting who he is, where you are, and what you are, but rather forgetting momentarily that you are controlled, that you are not the doer, in that way you can act more spontaneous. This is needed because when self-realized you realize just how much you are under the control of Krishna all the time. Another thing to consider is the fact that in lila you don't grow old and die, neither does anyone else. If you have no knowledge that you are in the highest reality then how is that going to work? You can try to come up with some explanation that your knowledge and memory becomes so limited by yogamaya that you don't realize that, but that is simply speculation based upon a misunderstanding of lila. As I have shown repeatedly, nitya-parishads are fully self-realized, all the works of the purva acharyas show that in their lila-granthas to some extent. The idea that became prevalent in ISKCON that you somehow forget everything about where you are, why you don't die or grow old, all spiritual knowledge on the nature of the jiva and God, and of reality in general, is based mostly upon speculation and misunderstanding of what is taught about lila (like taking it too literally). It is simply not taught by the purva acharyas that upon entering into lila you forget everything about everything. There is absolutely no need for that, and the truth is by knowing all the truths of Vedanta and Krishna's position, that increases rasa because it increases appreciation of where you are and who Krishna is. Why would it make sense for Krishna to put you through so much and to learn so much if all you learned will be gone? What makes sense is that Krishna put you through that so that your evolution into a self-realized soul puts you into the highest developed state of awareness so that you can deal with Krishna on that highest level so he can really show off what he is and can do. Consider Vaikuntha-dham in comparison to Goloka. In Vaikuntha you would probably agree that they know they are in Vaikuntha and know they are with God because in ISKCON they make it seem as if there alone is where Narayana displays his full opulence. It is then taught that in Vrindavan-lila because the rasa is more between equals than "God on a throne" that Vraja-lila is more relishable. The idea then taught is that somehow that means that in Vraja-lila no one knows they are in heaven with God, or have knowledge of all the associated realizations of the absolute truth they acquired as sadhana-siddhas after attaining perfection. That is not what is taught in shastra or by the acharyas, and it makes no sense, and it is a misunderstanding of why Vraja-lila is considered more relishable. The concept of Goloka being totally different than Vaikuntha is a metaphor. Consider this: CC Ādi 5.15 -21 He we are told that Vaikuntha and Gokula are infinite and all-pervading. Why would we be told that? Because it is true. The difference between Vaikuntha and Krishna-lila isn't the location, both exist everywhere (that is what infinite and all-pervading means), but experiencing that reality is only known and accessible to liberated souls. The differences in the lilas written about Vaikuntha or Ayodhya or Goloka are really meant to teach the jiva what the highest form of bhakti is all about. That is why all roads lead to Vraja-lila as the highest of the high - why? It is there where we see the most intimacy, so it is held up as the highest of the high. Not because when you attain to lila that your life will be exactly as is written about in lila, that you will be living in a simple village for eternity (when there are entire worlds to explore and have fun with) but that mood written in the lila-granthas, the mood of the intimacy shown there between Krishna and the sakhis, that is what is the highest realm of lila. That is what those granthas are for, not as an exact duplicate of all that you will experience when you attain your siddha-svarupa. We are told by the acharyas that the reality of aprakrita-lila is only known to liberated souls that have experience of it, and that whatever has been written is not telling the whole story: From Jaiva Dharma You will never forget what you learned to enable you to get there. The whole point of learning it all in the first place is so that you live with God on the highest level of realization. God wants really smart people to play with. People who are able to experience all that he can show them. But first you need to be able to deal with the reality of God, and deal with it in an intimate manner. That is the purpose of Vraja-lila.
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Post by niscala on Dec 15, 2014 2:44:37 GMT -5
>> I was wondering if you could tell us where you got those ideas? I've never seen that taught in shastra. Plus it makes no sense. The idea that to completely forget spiritual knowledge somehow lessens rasa is illogical to me.
First the definition of sthayi bhava: BRS 2.5.1 That bhava which controlling other bhavas such as hasya and contradictory bhavas such as krodha, presides in the manner of an efficient ruler, is called the sthayi bhava. Jiva G: The bhava which rules over all these bhavas is called the stahyi bhava or PERMANENT bhava"
What feelings does this "permanent bhava" inspire? When there is a rati based on mutual trust between two friends as equals without respect, it is called sakhya rati. This becomes the sthayi bhava (permanent emotion) of sakhya rasa.
This means permanently there is a feeling of equality with Krsna.
Vatsalya sthayi bhava. Here we see that even though seeing astonishing acts by baby Krsna, Yasoda cannot conclude He is God, protecting them- rather Nanda protected Krsna, even during His lifting of Govardhana! "Beacuse I and my husband worshipped Visnu constantly, Putana and the other demons were destroyed...I saw with my own eyes that Govardhana was held up by my husband, along with Balarama's help, because of worshiping Visnu. How could it be possible for my baby to perform all these difficult tasks?"
Thus she denies even the evidence from her own eyes, that Krsna is God, because of her permenent sthayi bhava as Krsna's mother and protector.
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Post by niscala on Dec 15, 2014 3:06:47 GMT -5
Further defnition of sthayi bhava, Jiva Goswami's commentary to BRS 3.1.3: Sthayi (what is permanent) here is a synonym for sthayi-bhava. Therefore the sthayi bhava is that which does not give up its form" Further evidence: "I pay my respects repeatedly to those who CONSTANTLY and eagerly mediate upon the Lord as their husband, son, wellwisher, brother, father or friend." BRS 1.2.308
Sambandha-rupa-ragatmika bhakti is that bhakti inspired by great absorption arising from identifying oneself as the parent, friend or servant of Govinda. This refers to the bhakti of the cowherd people ...This is because these relationships in Vraja have a predominance of intense affection (raga) caused by LACK OF AWARENESS THAT KRSNA IS GOD."
So the sthayi bhava is permanent and constant in the inhabitants of Vraja, and is caused by a lack of awareness that Krsna is God. So it is not that they sometimes forget He is God- they always forget that.
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 15, 2014 23:26:18 GMT -5
Further defnition of sthayi bhava, Jiva Goswami's commentary to BRS 3.1.3: Sthayi (what is permanent) here is a synonym for sthayi-bhava. Therefore the sthayi bhava is that which does not give up its form" Further evidence: "I pay my respects repeatedly to those who CONSTANTLY and eagerly mediate upon the Lord as their husband, son, wellwisher, brother, father or friend." BRS 1.2.308 Sambandha-rupa-ragatmika bhakti is that bhakti inspired by great absorption arising from identifying oneself as the parent, friend or servant of Govinda. This refers to the bhakti of the cowherd people ...This is because these relationships in Vraja have a predominance of intense affection (raga) caused by LACK OF AWARENESS THAT KRSNA IS GOD." So the sthayi bhava is permanent and constant in the inhabitants of Vraja, and is caused by a lack of awareness that Krsna is God. So it is not that they sometimes forget He is God- they always forget that. Niscala, you are basing your belief upon a wrong translation of that part of BRS, which is not talking about their awareness of Krishna as God, but rather contrasting the mood of the vrajabasis with Dwaraka where Krishna lives as an opulent prince, where in Vraja he lives as an equal with everyone, here is the Sanskrit sambandha-rupa govinde pitritvady-abhimanita | atropalakshanataya vrishninam vallava matah | yadaisya-jnana-sunyatvad esham rage pradhanata Pradhanata doesn't mean God, it means pre-eminence or superiority, used in the sense of class position. If Rupa had meant to mean God he would have used a different word since there are so many for God. You used this translation: In the commentary to that verse by Jiva Goswami by the same translator we see this: So according to that translation the people in Vraja lack awareness that Krishna is God, but then it has Jiva Goswami saying they just lack reverence for Krishna as God, unlike those in Dvaraka, who apparently do have reverence for Krishna as God. The problem is the translation of pradhanata as meaning awareness of God, rather then the normal meaning of superior position or status, here is the translation by Bon Maharaja which is more accurate:
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 15, 2014 23:44:36 GMT -5
I think I should say something about the purpose of those types of writings by the acharyas. Sometimes people get caught up in debating technicalities that are really not important and besides the point of those teachings. Those writings like the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and all the rest, they are not written as voyeuristic tour guides of Goloka (as is commonly believed). They have an entirely other purpose. They have a singular purpose, and that is to teach you what Krishna wants from you in a relationship. Vraja is touted as the highest because that is where everyone treats Krishna as an equal, that is contrasted to Krishna as a prince where he is above the common people. It is really just a metaphor for how we need to give up our worship of God in our development of bhava and rasa, and treat Krishna as an equal, as our soul mate, as our closest companion. That is really all those writings are trying to get across; trying to show bhaktas how they should approach Krishna in their meditation. In reality all other details are all directly revealed at bhava-bhakti, and that is something that those not on that level can simply not understand. But the books are written for a purpose, and that is to get you ready for bhava-bhakti where your relationship with Krishna starts, one to one. From then on all is revealed directly to you by Krishna.
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Post by niscala on Dec 16, 2014 3:59:35 GMT -5
>>So according to that translation the people in Vraja lack awareness that Krishna is God, but then it has Jiva Goswami saying they just lack reverence for Krishna as God, unlike those in Dvaraka, who apparently do have reverence for Krishna as God.
The two things mean the same thing. If you are aware that Krsna is God, you will necessarily have reverence for Him. The sthayi bhavas are permanent- you missed that part. They permanently feel themselves superior to Krsna, as parents, or His equals, as friends. This is due to the covering effect of Yoga Maya. If they did not feel themselves as equal, then they could not play with Him. If they did not feel themselves as superior, in terms of physical strength, they could not protect Him, they would not feel a need to. Obviously any awareness that He is God would diminish these feelings. Why would God need your protection? You seek protection from Him!
The quote I gave regarding Yasoda shows how she has these feelings even when Krsna lifts Govardhana to protect them all! She concludes that it wasn't Him, it must be Visnu, or Her husband. Why she rejects any thought He is God is because it spoils Her maternal affection. Why would God need breast milk? Why would He need breakfast? A bath? On the path of sadhana, we reason that He doesn't, it is a way of accepting our love/servuce, but there is no such calculation in the actions of the Vraja residents. It is entirely spontaneous.
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 16, 2014 19:03:04 GMT -5
Sthayi bhava is permanent, but it is not about forgetting Krishna is God, the idea of feeling equal or even superior is how yogamaya functions, it is not an inherent aspect of sthayi bhava. Do you have some source where the inherent nature of sthayi bhava is said to be forgetfulness, or is that your extrapolation from the idea that only by not knowing where you are and who Krishna is that you can treat him as an equal? If the latter, that is simply not true. The idea is that Krishna wants you see him as your soul mate, he wants you to see him and treat him as your equal, rather than be worshipful. That is the point of these teachings, they are NOT a voyeurs tour guide to Vraja, they are teaching manuals for sadhakas on the raganuga marga. That is all they are. Do not take them as something else. It is in fact possible to see Krishna as an equal even though you know he is God, all it takes is realizing that Krishna is your soul mate, your other half, inside and a part of you, knowing that you are eternally together, so therefore is no need to treat him as a worshipful deity since he is part of you - especially since he says he doesn't want that. All it takes is for Krishna to treat you as an equal, then it comes naturally for you to reciprocate in kind.
You must remember that the ideology of complete forgetfulness is full of problems. How would you deal with the fact that no one grows old? No one dies? Being an eternally youthful being is only going to work if you know what is going on. Otherwise to keep you ignorant of the truth Krishna would have to make you practically an imbecile. In truth it is simply a misunderstanding of lila to think you do not know where you are, who you are, and what God is in lila. Krishna doesn't want imbeciles, he wants the jiva to be the most enlightened it can be, this is so that the jiva knows the difference between itself and Krishna within itself, since the jiva is always inherently under the control of Krishna.
The baddha-jiva thinks itself the doer, unaware of the presence of Krishna within itself controlling it's actions and mind. The reality is the jiva is simply the passenger, like Arjuna in the chariot. The driver is Krishna. Not knowing this the jiva thinks itself to be the doer, to be Krishna. The mukta-jiva knows that it is not the doer, it sees and feels Krishna within as the doer, it realizes the truth of it's inner relationship with Krishna, it experiences just how close Krishna is within itself. That is the type of person that enters lila, that is the type of realized soul Krishna wants to enjoy rasa with, someone who knows the internal difference between itself and Krishna, someone who doesn't mistake himself or herself as Krishna, as the driver of the chariot of the body and mind.
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Post by niscala on Dec 16, 2014 21:04:36 GMT -5
Lal: Sthayi bhava is permanent, but it is not about forgetting Krishna is God, the idea of feeling equal or even superior is how yogamaya functions, it is not an inherent aspect of sthayi bhava
The following is the opinion of Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura. He makes it clear that the forgetfulness that Krsna is God arises from the sthayi bhava, NOT yogamaya, and is therefore permanent, even when there are extreme causes for it to be covered. Such feelings completely bewildrer the devotee who denies even sensory evidence that Krsna is God: "The bewilderment of the demons is the action of Mahamaya and the bewilderment of the devotees is the action of Yogamaya. When Yasoda saw the universal form in Krishnas mouth and when Nanda Maharaj saw Krishna in Visnuloka, they were completely unaffected by it because of their intense vatsalya-bhava parental affection, even though they saw such majestic aspects of the lord. This is neither the action of Yogamaya nor Mahamaya. It is the nature of Prema (love) itself.
Prema (love) covers ones knowledge of the lords power and majesty aishwarya mayi gyan, and binds up Krishna in the hearts of his Prema-bhaktas more and more with the ropes of spiritual possessiveness, as affection for Krishna increases, Prema completely submerges the devotees in the great ocean of relishing Krishnas sweetness. To convey this unique quality of Prema the Tantra-shastra says, Krishna spread his vaisnavi-maya in the form of parental affection. Extreme affection for the son is the unique quality of Vatsalya-prema. In this verse Yogamaya is refereed to as Maya since it shares the quality of spreading illusion with Mahamaya."
I guess it might be also how we define "God". If by that term , it you mean the most lovable object, yes, the Vraja inhabitants are always conscious Krsna is God. But if you mean God in all His power and majesty- they are never aware of that- or if made to be aware, such thoughts are submerged again in their sthayi bhava.
Back to our original topic- that they are never bewildered, actually they are, according to VCT but not in the same way as conditioned souls.
>>You must remember that the ideology of complete forgetfulness is full of problems. How would you deal with the fact that no one grows old? No one dies?
You are asking these questions because you can compare sastric description of the eternal abode, with the temporary world. But sastra states that nitya siddhas do not even know the material energy exists, so how can they be conscious of death, and if so how can they question their lack of it? It would be like us questioning "How come there are no flying elephants with duck feet and lion heads?" Questions always pertain to experience.
It is the normal condition of the soul to be free from death- therefore we question our unnatural condition: "Why do we have to die?" Although we have non experience of eternality, we feel it is the normal condition so we question the lack of it. It would be like a bank employee looking through the notes he is given and asking "Why are there no counterfeit notes here?"
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 16, 2014 22:41:59 GMT -5
I am not a big fan of Bhanu Swami's translations, as we see in the previous quote from BRS you offered where he mistranslates an essential word and changes what is being taught, so again with your quote of him from his Sarartha Darsini translation I cannot accept as accurate without checking out the original. Unfortunately he doesn't include the original and all we get is his translation. I couldn't see a version with the original included online, so I can't take what he wrote seriously.
But that aside and giving him the benefit of the doubt, he writes that it is love which covers over the devotee, not the sthayi bhava itself, there is a difference. Love is an emotion, whereas sthayi bhava is a specific type of relationship (friend, lover, parent).
As for you other claim, can you show where it says nitya-siddhas don't know the material world exists? Also the idea that in lila people wouldn't notice the lack of growing old or death and take it is normal, that presupposes that they forget all the spiritual knowledge they gained as sadhakas and are essentially completely ignorant of spiritual truths. That is certainly not taught in any shastra, and as I have shown, in shastra and lila-granthas the residents of Vraja are shown to be completely enlightened and speak philosophically on a very high level with full knowledge of Krishna. So all your ideas about not knowing about death etc. is not how they are portrayed.
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Post by niscala on Dec 16, 2014 23:54:21 GMT -5
>>But that aside and giving him the benefit of the doubt, he writes that it is love which covers over the devotee, not the sthayi bhava itself, there is a difference. Love is an emotion, whereas sthayi bhava is a specific type of relationship (friend, lover, parent).
The sthayi bhava is just the specific expression of their prema- they love Krsna as a friend etc. So it is not that prema acts separately from the sthayi bhava. But in this quote, it is clear that the sthayi bhava itself keeps Yasoda in bewilderment as to Krsna's Godhood.
When Yasoda saw the universal form in Krishnas mouth and when Nanda Maharaj saw Krishna in Visnuloka, they were completely unaffected by it because of their intense vatsalya-bhava parental affection.
>>As for you other claim, can you show where it says nitya-siddhas don't know the material world exists?
Jaiva Dharma: In Goloka, which is manifested by Lord Baladeva, and in Vaikuntha, which is manifested by Lord Sankarshana, numberless individual souls are eternal associates of the Lord. There they taste the nectar of worshiping and serving the Lord. They are always inclined to spiritual things. They seek the happiness of worshiping the Lord. They are always eager to serve the Lord. Empowered by the Lord's jiva-shakti and cit-shakti, they always have great spiritual strength. They never touch Maya. They do not even know that a potency called maya-shakti exists.
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lal
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Post by lal on Dec 17, 2014 2:55:51 GMT -5
I don't know, as I've shown in other threads the various Jaiva Dharma translations are not very good, containing blatant obvious errors, and I showed they copy each other in making the same exact errors meaning the translators were copying each other, even Narayana Maharaja's translators (e.g. they all left out a section on the age of the manjaris and changed what it really said as well at raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/post/197/thread). So without the original I cannot accept that as authoritative. Plus it contradicts what I have already cited, I showed that in the shastras the residents of Vraja and Goloka are shown speaking and knowing everything about everything. Gopa Kumar goes back and forth between the material plane and Goloka with full awareness of each, so I can't accept that translation without seeing the original, which as far as I know is not on the Internet, at least I've never seen it. My guess is that more likely it says something like they do not see maya or the material world, that the material world and maya does not exist for them, in the sense that in reality the concept of the material world is in the eye of the beholder, i.e. mayashakti and citshakti are the same thing, the difference is in how we perceive reality. Or how it's sometimes put that yogamaya and mahamaya are two sides of the same coin, that for those with perfected vision all they see is the lord in everything, hterefore they live in the spiritual world wherever they are since the definition of the spiritual world is the place where everything is comprised of the lord's personal energy. To give an example of how citshakti and mayashakti are the same thing, consider food that is turned into prasad. Before the offering it is mayashakti but after it is citshakti. The food is the same substance but it becomes citshakti due to the perception of the devotee. In the same way reality is either mayashakti (when you don't see God in and controlling everything) or citshakti based upon perception and realization of the jiva. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.9.7 ekas tvam eva bhagavann idam ātma-śaktyā māyākhyayoru-gunayā mahad-ādy-aśesham srishtvānuviśya purushas tad-asad-guneshu nāneva dārushu vibhāvasuvad vibhāsi My Lord, You are the supreme one, but by Your different energies You appear differently in the spiritual and material worlds. You create the total energy of the material world by Your external potency, and after creation You enter within the material world as the Supersoul. You are the Supreme Person, and through the temporary modes of material nature You create varieties of manifestation, just as fire, entering into wood of different shapes, burns brilliantly in different varieties. PURPORT Dhruva Mahārāja realized that the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, acts through His different energies, not that He becomes void or impersonal and thus becomes all-pervading. The Māyāvādī philosopher thinks that the Absolute Truth, being spread throughout the cosmic manifestation, has no personal form. But here Dhruva Mahārāja, upon realization of the Vedic conclusion, says, "You are spread all over the cosmic manifestation by Your energy." This energy is basically spiritual, but because it acts in the material world temporarily, it is called māyā, or illusory energy. In other words, for everyone but the devotees the Lord's energy acts as external energy. Dhruva Mahārāja could understand this fact very nicely, and he could understand also that the energy and the energetic are one and the same. The energy cannot be separated from the energetic. The identity of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the feature of Paramātmā, or Supersoul, is admitted herein. His original, spiritual energy enlivens the material energy, and thus the dead body appears to have life force. Voidist philosophers think that under certain material conditions the symptoms of life occur in the material body, but the fact is that the material body cannot act on its own. Even a machine needs separate energy (electricity, steam, etc.). It is stated in this verse that the material energy acts in varieties of material bodies, just as fire burns differently in different wood according to the size and quality of the wood. In the case of devotees the same energy is transformed into spiritual energy; this is possible because the energy is originally spiritual, not material. As it is said, vishnu-śaktih parā proktā [Cc. Madhya 6.154]. The original energy inspires a devotee, and thus he engages all his bodily limbs in the service of the Lord. The same energy, as external potency, engages the ordinary nondevotees in material activities for sense enjoyment. We should mark the difference between māyā and sva-dhāma — for devotees the sva-dhāma acts, whereas in the case of nondevotees the māyā energy acts.
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