Harmonist discussion with Tripurari continued

Here is my last post from the Harmonist, on July 7th, 6:14 pm.

I’m going to respond to your posts one by one, so this is the first one. I have quoted you so we can keep track of the discussion.



Everything in Krsna’s creation is unique and all of His energies are personal in nature. It’s inconceivable to think that jivas, who are eternally ‘persons’ with ‘personalities’, would not also be unique as individual persons, in spite of the common denominators you’ve listed, which are primarily the technical aspects of the jiva’s natures.

#2 is, “I am”, and #6 is “I am conscious”. If those are not signs of individual uniqueness then what are? What is the jiva conscious of if not their individuality? If the jivas don’t inherently and initially have a subset of Krsna’s personal qualities, then exactly what are the personal qualities they do have and where did they come from? It makes no sense to see it that way. They are not empty shells devoid of defining characteristics.

That this obvious truth may not have been explicity stated does not logically imply otherwise. It almost sounds like impersonalism to think otherwise. What is the value or purpose of being a person if you are not unique? Nothing in Krsna’s creation that is of a personal nature lacks the characteristic of being unique and individual.

The jivas have the inherent capacity for a unique relationship with Krsna. They don’t require additional personality components, only the seed of bhakti and the resultant bhava and prema that are awarded upon achieving success on the path. Those are the required spiritual components. The other personal aspects already exist and are eternally unique and fully capable for relational activites, otherwise, how do jivas function in this world as humans and demigods, etc?

Here’s a quote from Srila Prabhupada:

“This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to “natural inclination”. Each and every living entity “is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. “Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally”.

This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. This attachment for a particular form of the Lord is called svarupa-siddhi. The Lord sits on the lotus heart of the devotee in the eternal form the pure devotee desires, and thus the Lord does not part from the devotee, as confirmed in the previous verse. Bhag. 3:9:11 Purport



I disagree completely. Where is it stated that jivas only have these qualities due to bhakti? The purified versions of those qualities manifest due to bhakti, but they are already present. We are eternally PERSONS, which qualities we derive from being originally parts and parcels of Krsna, the supreme person. Otherwise, how can we have personal interactions in the material world? The material modes color our personalities, but they do not give us the qualities of personhood.



A jiva has a svarupa eternally, not just when bhakti is present. Svarupa means your eternal inherent nature. Srila Prabhupada confirmed that above, and so did BVT in the JD section I quoted. You have added the bhakti qualifier but they have not and nor have other acaryas. A jiva’s original svarupa is purified and elevated to the status of being qualified for a rasa with Krsna by bhakti and the eventual descent of hladini and samvit saktis, both of which act according to the individual desires and tastes that have manifested spontaneously in the jiva. And yes, association is an integral part of this, but it is not the direct and sole transference of another’s bhava as you assert.



Knowing each jiva’s eternal nature and disposition, Krsna arranges for each jiva to connect with the appropriate gurus and lineage to receive the type of bhakti that is appropriate for their progress and eventual success. He is personally making these arrangements as Paramatma. His devotees distribute His mercy by planting the seed of bhakti along with external guidance, but He makes the background arrangements according to His direct involvement with each jiva as Supersoul. Ye yatha mam prapadyante…

Why do you think He chooses to send jivas to specific bhakti lineages? Does it have anything at all to do with the jiva’s nature and inclinations and potential for a specific relationship? Sir Guru is the direct representative of Krsna and it is Krsna who sends the appropriate guru for each jiva and that is not a whimsical or random decision. It is arranged according to the potential relationship that Krsna knows is there.

Yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu distributed Vraja bhakti, but not all of those in His groups of followers went in that direction. Some were still attracted to other forms of Krsna but they were still considered part of His followers and thus received His mercy. All devotees are advised to read Srimad Bhagavatam which includes lilas of many of Krsnas avataras, for whom some, may be more attractive than Radha-Krsna. Why bother to read about them if we are going to end up with Radha-Krsna ultimately and eventually avoid them because they do not nourish our Vraja bhakti?

On the path of bhakti we first learn about sambandha – our eternal foundational relationship with Krsna, ie: I am an eternal servant of Krsna. There is nothing in sambandha that implies a specific relationship or rasa. It is the broadest concept of our fundamental relationship with Krsna without specificity. Why start there? Why didn’t Caitanya’s acaryas say, sambandha means you are in Vraja dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya?



Desire and choice are what individualism and free will is all about. These are the core characteristics of unique personhood that we derive from being parts of Krsna, who is the original fountainhead of all desires and choices. We CHOOSE to love Krsna and it is DESIRE/LOBHA which fuels our progress and remains in the purified perfected stage.

I have given an explanation of the jiva’s individual unique personhood above with solid logic. It seems very strange to me to even have to argue such a point when it is such an absolute and indisputable tattva. If the jivas aren’t individual unique persons then what exactly are they? Why is there an eternal PERSONAL relationship with Krsna as the Paramatma accompanying them since time immemorial? What personal aspects of Krsna’s energies are not unique and why would the jivas be different in that respect?

Perhaps the reason you’re having problems with BVT’s presentation is because of your particular interpretation of the previous acaryas’ statements which then results in having to harmonize BVT with them. I have not encountered such problematic discrepancies and in my book I found no need to harmonize any of the acaryas’ major statements with each other. I have had to harmonize some of Srila Prabhupada’s statements regarding raganuga-bhakti with the previous acaryas and I explained why in the Introduction of my book. But I found nothing problematic with BVT’s statements in that regard.

To begin this phase of the discussion, let me first summarize the basic understanding I have gleaned from studying our acaryas’ books and meditating deeply on these subjects. I’ll then follow with quotes from our acaryas to substantiate my postion.

Jivas are endowed with a subset of Krsna's qualities in a unique combination (and to a minute degree) which forms the basis of their unique core personalities and inherent nature as individual persons, ie: their svarupa. Since Krsna is the supreme original person, there is no meaning to the concept of being a person without having its roots in the personality of Krsna. There is no other source of personal attributes. That core svarupa of the jiva includes its corresponding unique desire propensities. Jivas, like Krsna, are driven by unlimited desires - that is part of our nature that we also derive from Krsna.

The jiva’s fundamental eternal svarupa-dharma is to be a servant of Krsna. jivera svarupa haya nityera krsna dasa. There is no meaning to being a servant without being a full fledged person. But that identity as a servant is only complete or fully perfected when the jiva’s propensity for serving Krsna is established in the context of a specific relationship with Him in His lila, either in the Vaikuntha realm or in Vraja. Service to Krsna manifests in unlimited varieties according to the propensities of each jiva based on their unique individual natures as persons with their corresponding desire propensities.


That package of svarupa and desire predispositions implies or embodies the potential for a particular relationship with Krsna. In other words, because of the jivas’ unique individual natures, they will be predisposed or attracted to a particular relationship with Krsna, given the various available choices. It's what the jiva was made for, or destined for, or ideally suited for. Krsna knows this because ultimately it is He who has specifically manifested these jivas for His own pleasure.

Jivas are part of, and manifested from, the tatastha-sakti. Bhakti is part of the svarupa-sakti and it is not a part of tatastha-sakti. Bhakti is supremely independent and is bestowed primarily through the causeless mercy of Krsna’s devotees. The guru plants the seed of bhakti in the heart of a jiva (bhakti lata bhija), and this is the beginning of the awakening of one’s eternal service to Krsna.

The hladini-sakti is also not part of the tatastha-sakti, it is part of the svarupa-sakti of Krsna. Because prema is also part of the hladini-sakti, it descends from the svarupa-sakti and is bestowed on the jivas as the perfection (sadhya) of their sadhana-bhakti, thus making them qualified for an eternal relationship with Krsna in His lila. It is a gift. This is explained in detail in BRS and I've summarized it in chapter 6 of my book in the section on Bhava, with commentaries by JG and VCT.

Full awareness and identification with this eternal identity and relationship is part of the samvit-sakti - knowingness or self-awareness, which also 'descends' or is bestowed at the stage of bhava/perfection, and it is also part of the svarupa-sakti. Svarupa-siddhi is when we reach the stage of bhava and Krsna awards us our desired eternal form, identity and seva, based on what we meditated on and desired during our bhajana in raganuga-sadhana, ie: our siddha-deha manasi-seva. Ye yatha mam prapadyante...

Bhava is the seed of prema or a ray of the sun of prema. When we attain prema-bhakti, we will develop or crystalize our sthayi-bhava, our permanent dominant emotional mood or disposition, and that is when we become qualified to fully experience rasa - prema-bhakti-rasa. Refer to chapter 6 in the section on Rasa for the full details of how the sthayi-bhava fits into rasa and all of its elements.

In summary, our svarupa as jivas isn't our fully perfected identity in Krsna lila, but it is the potential or seed of it as described above. It's not a blank slate that is dependent on our guru planting his/her specific relationship/rasa along with the bhakti-lata-bhija as some people wrongly assert. Our core nature/svarupa as jivas, combined with the seed of bhakti, allows us to develop our full potential to serve and love Krsna in the context of a relationship that is ideally suited to our personal natures. This can only take place in the association of advanced devotees by their mercy and guidance.

As confirmation of my assertions, I’m going to quote some passages from BVT’s Jaiva-dharma, chapter 15 on Jiva-tattva. But first, here is an excerpt from Srila Prabhupada I quoted in a previous post on the Harmonist:

This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to “natural inclination”. Each and every living entity “is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. “Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally”.

This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. This attachment for a particular form of the Lord is called svarupa-siddhi. The Lord sits on the lotus heart of the devotee in the eternal form the pure devotee desires, and thus the Lord does not part from the devotee, as confirmed in the previous verse. SB, 3:9:11 Purport


From Jaiva-dharma:

Vrajanatha: Please be merciful to me and tell me who I really am according to tattva, and why I have come to this world.”

Babaji: My dear son, you have blessed me by asking such a question. The day that the jiva first asks this question is the auspicious day on which his good fortune arises. If you will kindly hear the fifth sloka of Dasa-mula, all your doubts will be dispelled.

“Just as many tiny sparks burst out from a blazing fire, so the innumerable jivas are like atomic, spiritual particles in the rays of the spiritual sun, Sri Hari. Though these jivas are non-different from Sri Hari, they are also eternally different from Him. The eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara is that Isvara is the Lord and master of maya-sakti, whereas the jiva can fall under the control of maya, even in his liberated stage, due to his constitutional nature.” JD, page 354


Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature).

Vrajanatha: Is there any material component in the jiva’s original constitution?

Babaji: No, the jiva is created solely from the cit-sakti. He can be defeated – that is, covered by maya – because he is minute by nature and lacks spiritual power, but there is not even a scent of maya in the jiva’s existence. JD, 356


In describing the jivas who go to the spiritual world, BVT does not state that they require additional personal attributes to do so. They only require prema-bhakti which is bestowed on them when they choose to enter the spiritual realm.






For everyone’s benefit, here are some “fully-baked” ideas from over a century ago, by one of our most distinguished “baker” acaryas, BVT:

Vrajanatha: What is the difference between Isvara and the jiva?

Babaji: First you should understand the non-difference between Isvara and the jiva, and after that, I will explain their eternal difference. Isvara is the embodiment of knowledge (jnana-svarupa), the knower (jnata-svarupa), one who considers or reflects (manta-svarupa) and the enjoyer (bhoktr-svarupa). He is self-effulgent (svapr-akasa) and He also illuminates others (para-prakasa). He has His own desires (iccha-maya), and He is the knower of all (ksetra-jna). The jiva, too, is the form of knowledge, the knower, and the enjoyer; he too, is self-effulgent, and he illuminates others; and he too, has desires, and is the knower of his own field (ksetra-jna). From this perspective, there is no difference between them.

However, Isvara is omnipotent, and by dint of this omnipotence, He is the basis of all these qualities, which are present in Him in full. These qualities are also present in the atomic jiva, but only to a minute degree. Thus, the nature and form of Isvara and the jiva are eternally different from each other because one is complete and the other is minute; and at the same time, there is a lack of distinction between Isvara and the jiva because of the similarity between their qualities.

Isvara is the Lord of svarupa-sakti, jiva-sakti and maya-sakti because of the completeness of the internal potency (atma-sakti). Sakti is His maidservant, and He is the Lord of sakti, who is activated by His desire; this is the svarupa of Isvara. Though the qualities of Isvara are present in the jiva to a minute degree, the jiva is nonetheless under the control of sakti. JD, 365-366


Vrajanatha: Please explain the eternal nature of the jiva even more clearly.

Babaji: The jiva is atomic consciousness and is endowed with the quality of knowledge and is described by the word aham (‘I’). He is the enjoyer, the thinker, and the one who comprehends. The jiva has an eternal form which is very subtle. Just as the different parts of the gross body, the hands, legs, nose, eyes and so on combine to manifest a beautiful form when established in their respective places, similarly a very beautiful atomic spiritual body is manifest, which is composed of different spiritual parts. However, when the jiva is entangled in maya, that spiritual form is covered by two material bodies. One of these is called the subtle body (linga-sarira) and the other is called the gross body (sthula-sarira). JD, 368-369


Vrajanatha: I understand the eternal svarupa of the jiva to be spiritual and atomic in nature, and within that svarupa is a beautiful body composed of spiritual limbs. In the conditioned state, that beautiful spiritual body remains covered by the subtle body, and the material covering of the jiva-svarupa in the form of the jada-sarira causes its material transformation (jada-vikara). Now, I want to know whether the jiva is completely faultless in the liberated state.

Babaji: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the jiva’s spiritual form may be covered through association with the powerful maya-sakti. JD, 371-372


Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is situated in tatastha-svabhava, or junction, of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?

Babaji: Krsna’s qualities are also present in the jivas, but only in a minute quantity. Krsna is supremely independent, so the desire to be independent is eternally present in the jivas as well. When the jiva uses his independence correctly, he remains disposed towards Krsna, but when he misuses it, he becomes vimukha (indifferent) to Him. It is just this indifference that gives rise to the desire in the jiva’s heart to enjoy maya.

Because of the desire to enjoy maya, he develops the false ego that he can enjoy material sense gratification, and then the five types of ignorance – tamaù (not knowing anything about the spirit soul), moha (the illusion of the bodily concept of life), maha-moha (madness for material enjoyment), tamisra (forgetfulness of one’s constitutional position due to anger or envy) and andha-tamisra (considering death to be the ultimate end) – cover his pure, atomic nature. Our liberation or subjugation simply depends on whether we use our minute independence properly, or misuse it. JD, 378-379


As further confirmation, after describing Krsna's qualities there is the following verse in BRS, Vibhava, 2.1.30:

These qualities are present even in the jivas to a very small degree now and then. However, they are present in full in the Supreme Lord.

Jiva Gosvami's commentary:

"Now and then" means that those jivas who receive the mercy of the Lord exhibit the majority of these qualities. Even then, the qualities are present as small drops only. The qualities are present in others (who do not receive the Lord's mercy) only as a mere semblance (abhasa).


The fact is that the jivas have qualities related to being persons. It does not specify that these qualities are only due to having a false ego and being conditioned by maya-sakti. Nor does it apply only to liberated souls. Keep in mind that this verse is talking specifically about the personal qualities of Krsna that are present in the jivas. This verse confirms that jivas have qualities associated with being persons. They are NOT all identical and non-differentiated in their root state of existence.

In addition, here is Sanatana Goswami's commentary on SB 10.14.7: the Prayers of Lord Brahma:
 
Srila Sanatana Gosvami:
 
This verse means,  O Lord who have descended to this world, no one can understand all the glories of Your transcendental qualities." Here Brahma hints,  Because I was unaware of them, it seems like Your transcendental qualities were dormant, asleep, and now they are manifest before me. Now it is like they are awake. O Lord, now it is clearly determined that You have many transcendental qualities.

Since that is Your nature, there arises the possibility of counting the number of them. However, the question may be raised: Who has the power to count all of Your glorious qualities? The answer to this question must certainly be: No one has that power. The reason for that is given in the word `hitavatirnasya' (You descend on the surface of the globe for the benefit of all living entities).

Here is the meaning: The Lord manifests specific qualities to benefit the conditioned souls in specific ways. Now, because the individual spirit souls are limitless in number, and because the individual natures they possess are also limitless in number, therefore the personal qualities the Supreme Lord manifests to benefit them must also be limitless in number. It is not possible to count the number of something that is limitless, so therefore no one has the power to count all the glories and qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.


Narottama dasa Thakura writes in Prema-bhakti-candrika:

I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sadhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of raga-bhakti. PBC, 55

The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sadhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56


From Jaiva-dharma regarding the awakening of your natural inclinations:

Vrajanatha: Which type of raganuga-bhakti do we have the adhikara (qualification) to adopt?

Babaji: My son, you should scrutinize your own svabhava (the true nature of a thing which forms an essential part of its composition), and then you will see the corresponding type of devotion for which you are qualified. A particular ruci (taste) will awaken according to your inherent svabhava, and you should pursue the rasa that is indicated by that ruci. In order to cultivate that rasa, you should follow one of Krsna’s eternal associates who is perfect in it.

To determine rasa, it is only necessary to examine your own ruci. If your ruci is towards the path of raga, then you should act according to that ruci; and as long as an inclination has not awakened for the path of raga, you should simply execute the principles of vaidhi-bhakti with firm faith.

Vijaya: Prabhu, I have been studying Srimad-bhagavatam for a long time, and I listen to krsna-lila whenever and wherever I find the opportunity. Whenever I deliberate on krsna-lila, a strong bhava arises within my heart to serve the Divine Couple as Lalita-devi does.

Babaji: You need not say any more. You are a manjari (young maidservant) of Lalita-devi.

…When Vrajanatha saw Vijaya Kumara’s spiritual wealth, he folded his hands and humbly said, “My master, whenever I meditate on Sri Krsna’s pastimes, a desire arises in my heart to serve Him by following in the footsteps of Subala.”

Babaji: Which service do you like?

Vrajanatha: When the calves wander far off to graze, I would very much like to bring them back in the company of Subala. When Krsna sits in a place to play upon His flute, I will take the permission of Subala to let the cows drink water, and then I will bring them to Bhai (Brother)
Krsna. This is my heart’s desire.

Babaji: I give you the benediction that you will attain Krsna’s service as a follower of Subala. You are eligible to cultivate the sentiment of friendship (sakhya-rasa). JD, Chapter 21, Pages 514-515

Some further sastric pramana to support Uttamasloka prabhu's presentation on the subject is also given by Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Harinama Cintamani.

I am citing the references from Bhanu Swami's translation. The quotes in Chapter 15 are especially relevant:

p14 ( Ch 2 )

" The jiva conditioned by the illusory material nature experiences a state of consciousness that is a complete reversal of Krsna consciousness. Because he falsely identifies with his body, the jiva's name, form, qualities and activities are full of contradiction. Once he is purified of his material contaminations, these four features become harmonious and identical with the soul. But until he is liberated by the Lord's grace, the jiva will continue to suffer the pains of his false identification eternally. "

p 15; The guru gives the Name, but it is the Name which awakens the devotee spiritual nature;

" Anyone wanting to attain the highest spiritual success of chanting purely must approach a bonafide spiritual master and serve him carefully and sincerely. Gradually, as all the anarthas or unwanted desires in the heart are destroyed, the transcendental name of Krsna appears and dances on the tongue of the devotee. The holy name, now nectarean in taste, cannot but be relished by the devotee at every moment. Thus spiritually intoxicated, the devotee always feels like dancing. As the holy name dances, the devotee likewise dances, and at that moment the ecstasy of love of Godhead also enters dancing into the devotee's heart. Then the entire world will dance and maya will flee away."

p 102 ( Ch 15 )

The awakening of of rasa, bhakti and the latent potencies of the jiva through the mercy of Sri Nama;

" The bhaktisakti latent within the jiva are the minuscule spiritual potencies of ahlada (bliss) and samvit (knowledge). With the flowering of rasa, the svarupasakti (the internal potency of the Lord Himself) descends to contact and revive these tiny spiritual potencies of the jiva; all this is effected by the causeless mercy of the holy name. The svarupasakti descends as Bhakti devi, who embodies the full mixture of the hladini and samvit potencies. This mixture is called the bhaktisvarupamsakti, the potency of the form of pure devotion. When his latent bliss and knowledge are infused with this bhaktisvarupamsakti, the spontaneous loving attitude required for entering the asta kaliyalila appears in the heart of the chanter of the holy name."

p 107

When the material coverings are removed, the original spiritual form is realised;

" As the devotee becomes disciplined in rasa, the gap between sadhana (practice) and bhajanasiddhi (perfection of worship) closes. Soon, the servitor's spiritual form begins to take shape. By the mercy of the yutheswari, he becomes easily overpowered by attraction to Lord Krsna. This strong spiritual attraction eradicates the gross and subtle material concepts of form that captured him when he turned away from Krsna. Thus the jiva gains entrance into Vraja in his original spiritual form."

I’ve been having an on-going eMail discussion with a disciple of Satya Narayana Dasa Babaji, as well as this debate with Tripurari Swami. It is clear that there is concurrence on many points between these two camps, not necessarily intentionally, but at least coincidentally.

The first point being that jivas are not distinguished from one another because they are unique persons on a root spiritual level, but rather they are simply “units of individual sat-cit-ananda consciousness.” They don’t have any distinguishing personality characteristics in their core beingness. As such, jivas don’t have any predisposed propensities for a specific relationship with Krsna due to their unique personal natures/svarupa.

Both parties then assert that it follows logically that one’s guru plants the seed, not only of bhakti, but of one’s eternal relationship/rasa with Krsna, because there is no inherent capacity or predisposition towards any specific relationship. Thus one receives and follows the rasa of their guru. No personal choice or inclination is involved in any way.

Both parties also assert that one therefore follows one’s guru into Vraja lila, although this is not substantiated by sastra or the teachings of our acaryas as I have shown in my book in chapter 5 in the section, How is your rasa determined? Rupa Gosvami in BRS, Jiva Gosvami in BS, VCT in RVC and MK and BVT in his books have repeatedly stated that one must follow a nitya-siddha Vraja associate ‘of one’s own choosing’, whose bhava and seva one desires to emulate. None of them have stated anywhere that one follows one’s guru’s bhava for entrance into Vraja. Most devotees don’t even know the rasa of their guru, and in the case of Srila Prabhupada, he never emphasized one rasa over another.







TS gave no quotes to substantiate conclusively that one's relationship/rasa comes from one's guru and is the same as one's guru. Neither did SNDB’s disciple. TS has given nothing to support that, except one sentence in one purport from BRS (1.2.229) by VCT. The guru plants the seed of bhakti and nowhere in sastra does it say that bhakti = rasa/relationship.  Rasa requires bhakti + prema.

Here is a key point to grasp that has not been resolved by either of these parties’ conceptions. Even if, as both of these parties assert, the guru gives one their rasa/relationship (ie: the same as the guru’s rasa), that does not mean that the guru also gives you a 'personality' or 'identity'. One has to have a personality first, along with the sense of having an individual identity - "I am a unique individual" - in order to have a relationship of any kind. How can there be a unique relationship without having a unique personality? It makes absolutely no sense, and that idea is not supported by sastra or the acaryas or common sense logic.

They both say (per JG) that the jivas are “equal units of consciousness”, but their interpretation of that is bordering on impersonalism. Either jivas are unique individual persons or they are not. You can't have it both ways. Only persons can have relationships. Relationship does not = personality. A relationship is the functional expression of a personality. The guru does not give every disciple a unique personality as well as a relationship. That is not stated or implied anywhere.

So when I stated in my initial presentation that each jiva has the potential or propensity for a specific relationship, that is because they are already complete persons at their core (svarupa), being parts and parcels of the supreme person, from whom they derived their complete personhood. om purnam adah purnam idam.

The guru plants the seed of bhakti which awakens the jiva’s nityera svarupa of being a servant of Krsna. Sadhana-bhakti waters that seed and purifies the heart of anarthas, thus gradually revealing the innate predisposition of each individual unique jiva for a particular type of service relationship with Krsna that is exactly suitable for their eternal personal natures (svarupa).

Here is another very important point that ties this all together. First some quotes.

From BVT in Caitanya-siksamrita:

Which rasa the soul has is determined by the soul’s innermost tendency of taste. When faith in the chanting process arises, according to his taste he will gravitate to his own rasa. Determining that rasa, the guru will give him suitable initiation for carrying out his worship.
CS, Chapter 6, Part 5


From JG from Bhakti-sandarbha:

For this reason we will now discuss raganuga-bhakti, the practice of devotion following in the wake of the moods of natural affection. When a person develops a taste for the aforesaid specific raga [i.e., any of the four major rasas], even though that raga itself has not arisen in her or him, the heart becomes like a crystal, shining as it reflects the rays of the moon of that raga.

By hearing about this raga from scripture or from one’s teacher, one develops a taste for the actions of the ragatmika associates also, that are expressions of this ragatmika-bhakti. Then by adhering to the raga of a particular associate of the Lord, according to one’s taste, one executes devotion, which is called raganuga. BS, Anuccheda 310


From Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu:

These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhava associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38

Jiva Gosvami’s Commentary:

But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?

In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasabhasa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.

Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.

Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary:

Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dasya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dasya and the other three higher rasas.


If the guru plants the rasa along with the bhakti lata bija for the first time in one’s entrance into the path of bhakti, it will not be sufficient according to JG in BRS because it requires multiple lifetimes of progress on the path, along with the samskaras that occur therein. One’s inclination must crystalize over several/many lifetimes and become focused on one specific rasa to produce the necessary taste required for perfection of one’s bhakti. The samskaras are from exposure to Krsna lila, which is our final destination, in the association of advanced devotees from whom we get mercy and guidance.

Thus, one must have a guru in each life who plants the seed that allows one to continue to the point of being qualified, only after many lifetimes of samskaras, and only when the focus on one rasa becomes prominent. So one’s rasa is not solely dependent on, or connected to one’s current guru according to the references given above.

When VCT states, “Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dasya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste.” he is referring to association with devotees who have a rasa similar to one’s own, and by which one gets the direct and necessary guidance for engaging in bhajan, as stated by BVT. He doesn’t mean that one gets that rasa by the mercy of another devotee, but one perfects one’s desired rasa by that mercy. That is when such like-minded association is extremely important because the clarity of one’s identity and relationship/rasa are at a milestone point of awakening, thus qualifying one for raganuga-bhakti, which is the only path for entering Vraja.

Lal, a forum member, started another thread on this discussion and I've taken the liberty to post his comment here so we can consolidate everything in one thread.

Here is his post:

Uttamasloka prabhu

Since Tripurari Swami no longer wants to discuss what you were talking about with him (the bhava of the jiva being inherent or not) right when I was going to post my comment, I thought if you wanted we could continue here. Here was my response to your comment:

In Brhad Bhagavatamritam we find a metaphoric journey of the jiva from ignorance to it's fullest enlightenment, in the life of Gopa Kumar. From his beginning of first hearing about higher topics we see him progress to higher planetary systems until finally he enters Vaikuntha. In Vaikuntha he progresses from one loka to the next, always finding himself feeling a lack. Even in Dwaraka and Mathura there is a lack. Finally upon entering Vraj he finds his true heart's contentment. The message from Sanatana Goswami is about the purpose of the other lilas in Vaikuntha, they serve a certain purpose in the development of the jiva in it's inner development of intimacy with God. This can be taken as your understanding evolves. But this from Jiva Goswami from Priti-sandarbha may be enlightening:

Priti-sandarbha 10.12 :



The reason you could find no sastra delineating in detail about the jiva having a distinct different "inherent" bhava or svarupa from all other jivas, is because that isn't taught. It's an extrapolation from what is taught. Your quoting of Prabhupada isn't helpful to your case because he would often say or write things knowing he was trying to instill something new and complicated to an audience wholly ignorant of higher conceptions of reality taught by the Gaudiya acharyas. For that reason he avoided rasa katha and talked about the fall of the jiva from Goloka. Taking something controversial he wrote or said as definitive tattva is something you objected to in your book, saying it should be checked with the writings of previous acharyas for exactly that reason (the section on the fall of the jiva).

Consider that the jiva, by it's nature, is defined by being dependent on Krishna for it's ability to process information. That's why we see Bhaktivinoda in JD state:



Knowing that we have no independent ability (free will is an illusion, there are bad translations of Jaiva Dharma which may state otherwise), that makes us without an inherent disposition beyond our ability to know reality and evolve in our understanding. To be conscious and develop our awareness in the way Krishna arranges is our inherent disposition. To have an inherent disposition beyond that would require our own independent thought process, since what you describe as an inherent distinct svarupa would require an inherent processing of information, which we don't possess. That is given to us, from moment to moment. We lack an inherent mind, therefore we lack an inherent disposition towards bhava or rasa, which is based upon mentally conceived desires. Lord Kapila states:



The mind is Paramatma, we are observers of the mind/Paramatma. When we identify with the mind we lack awareness of reality. When we no longer identify with the mind, we encounter Aniruddha (Paramatma) as our mind:



If what you believe is true, then such a thing would surely be openly taught and discussed in depth by the previous acharyas, but it isn't. Prabhupada may have occasionally extrapolated in support of the fall of the jiva paradigm (which you reject in your book), but that is all you can cite. Anything else will be shown to be bad translations based upon that mistaken ideology (which is commonplace in the available English translations).

But, as soon as we talk about the terms like: 'potential', 'seed', 'propensity', 'latent', 'dormant', etc., they indicate presence and not the absence of that which may or may not develop or grow.

In my understanding, simply because of the presence of the spirit soul within every living entity (that 'spark in our chest area' and the Paramatma residing within), which is eternal, indestructible and cannot go away in any way whatsoever because it is eternal by default- exactly like the Supreme Spirit or Supreme Person, it is infinitely small replica of a Complete Whole, just as you perfectly stated in the first quote above. We are made in the image of our Father.

We can even find an analogy in material world for that: just as a small genetic code (DNA) consists all information necessary for developing certain organism with a certain destiny, so there is a 'spiritual code' in the spark that each jiva eternally possess and the time factor in material worlds has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Because of the dual nature of jiva (since he has two main kinds of energy at their disposition), he appears to be lost to the spirit when immersed in maya of the material phenomenal world. But that is not possible due to eternity of the spirit which eternally resides in each and every jiva; it is a common sense logic. There is no possibility of change for the spirit. The spiritual 'spark' never leaves jiva, no matter what material form it takes, or how much time it spends wondering through the material universes. The 'spiritual code' in the heart of jivas containing all information regarding their relationship with Krsna is never covered by maya. So due to its eternity as its default state, it is never absent nor can ever become as such. This is how I understood Prabhupada saying "It is already there."

Further, in my understanding of sastra, the Energetic is always superior and His energy (although non-different from the Energetic) is always subordinate: a servant finding his/her highest pleasure in fulfiling desires of the Energetic. Since the Energetic is never absent from His energy, He cannot be unaware of His energies, it is to be concluded that the unique 'energy signature' that we possess (our original taste, or specific loving relationship with Him, i.e. bhakti) is obviously His idea and not ours, and therefore it is His desire for us to serve Him in that particular unique way. Our free will seems to be really very limited: the only thing we can actually decide is: to serve Him or - maya. Everything else is His idea, His desire and His energy. And our only original desire and our greatest happiness is to serve Him in all His desires.

It is important to remind ourselves here that Krsna said He gives both rememberance and forgetfullness, so I really wonder how much of what we think, or want, or forget is actually 'ours'? ... All I know is that even material energy is very hard or almost impossible to understand, what to speak of spiritual energy then? It is inconceivable and very bewildering for us. This is how I understand this subject. If I am wrong, please be kind and correct me.





In my understanding that I presented above, the 'seed' of (general and specific) bhakti is 'already there' as the indestructible 'spiritual code' in our heart, but its growth is the 'potential' - i.e. it will develop under certain circumstances, and not accidentally or randomly. And #1 condition is: obtaining a mercy of a guru or advanced devotee distributing bhakti from heart to heart (it is a spiritual business - the business of the heart). Then the whole thing actually starts 'rolling': seemingly formless in the beginning, then taking some form, and goes up to a state of perfection of spiritual form - until the final destination, as originally intended by Krsna.

The only thing that ignites the purified heart is the transcendental fire of our desire to serve Him in a specific way and it makes us feel completely blissful and ecstatic to think that He accepts our service in a certain specific taste, but it is already predetermined by Krsna and yoga-maya is simply doing Her job in order to make it happen. Yoga-maya made mother Yasoda 'think' that Krsna is her little helpless child. Yoga-maya made His queens 'think' He is their 'henpecked' husband being always with them and fullfiling all their desires, etc. The point is that in such relationship both parties are happy even though Krsna doesn't need anybody to be happy, but since He is the Supreme Enjoyer, this position of His is absolute. And finally, my conclusion is that we are puppets in the hands of Supreme Puppeteer:

Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya said, "I am just a dancing puppet, and You pull the strings. Whichever way You make me dance, I will dance. [Madhya 8.132]

As a wooden doll dances to the will of a puppeteer, everything is accomplished by the will of the Lord. Who can understand the characteristics of the Supreme Personality of Godhead? [Antya 12.85]

Navina: Thanks for your additional quotes.




But bhakti does not originate in the tatastha-sakti, so it cannot be present in the jivas unless the seed is planted by a devotee. The jiva’s svarupa is nityera krsna das, so that is the fertile ground that allows the seed to grow if watered regularly.





The spiritual spark and the jiva are one and the same. The spiritual code in your analogy is the individual personal nature of the jiva, which is the core ingredient for a relationship with Krsna, but it is not complete in and of itself.

Raga infused bhakti has to be added to the mixture, which leads to prema, the next required ingredient, and then one must have an ‘identity’ in Krsna lila, ie: one’s abhimana, or self-conception as a servant, friend, elder or lover. This abhimana is part of one’s sthayi-bhava, your permanent dominant emotional mood. Only then does one become fully qualified for rasa with Krsna. Because these additional ingredients are essential and not present in the jiva - because they are all part of the svarupa-sakti - therefore, the jiva’s original position only represents the potential.