Discussion from FaceBook about Bhavollasa-rati

I was wondering if you could tell us where you got those ideas? I've never seen that taught in shastra. Plus it makes no sense. The idea that to completely forget spiritual knowledge somehow lessens rasa is illogical to me. It's like saying that if you are the wife of a king you cannot be his lover, or if you are his children or close friends you cannot be close. That simply isn't true. What shastra talks about when it talks about yogamaya covering over people it's in the context of the moment, not a permanent basis. The covering isn't that you lose your memory of who you are dealing with or where, rather you are made to lose your focus on those things and instead act as if Krishna is like a regular person and you are not under his control. That is the important part, not forgetting who he is, where you are, and what you are, but rather forgetting momentarily that you are controlled, that you are not the doer, in that way you can act more spontaneous. This is needed because when self-realized you realize just how much you are under the control of Krishna all the time.

Another thing to consider is the fact that in lila you don't grow old and die, neither does anyone else. If you have no knowledge that you are in the highest reality then how is that going to work? You can try to come up with some explanation that your knowledge and memory becomes so limited by yogamaya that you don't realize that, but that is simply speculation based upon a misunderstanding of lila. As I have shown repeatedly, nitya-parishads are fully self-realized, all the works of the purva acharyas show that in their lila-granthas to some extent. The idea that became prevalent in ISKCON that you somehow forget everything about where you are, why you don't die or grow old, all spiritual knowledge on the nature of the jiva and God, and of reality in general, is based mostly upon speculation and misunderstanding of what is taught about lila (like taking it too literally).

It is simply not taught by the purva acharyas that upon entering into lila you forget everything about everything. There is absolutely no need for that, and the truth is by knowing all the truths of Vedanta and Krishna's position, that increases rasa because it increases appreciation of where you are and who Krishna is. Why would it make sense for Krishna to put you through so much and to learn so much if all you learned will be gone? What makes sense is that Krishna put you through that so that your evolution into a self-realized soul puts you into the highest developed state of awareness so that you can deal with Krishna on that highest level so he can really show off what he is and can do.

Consider Vaikuntha-dham in comparison to Goloka. In Vaikuntha you would probably agree that they know they are in Vaikuntha and know they are with God because in ISKCON they make it seem as if there alone is where Narayana displays his full opulence. It is then taught that in Vrindavan-lila because the rasa is more between equals than "God on a throne" that Vraja-lila is more relishable. The idea then taught is that somehow that means that in Vraja-lila no one knows they are in heaven with God, or have knowledge of all the associated realizations of the absolute truth they acquired as sadhana-siddhas after attaining perfection. That is not what is taught in shastra or by the acharyas, and it makes no sense, and it is a misunderstanding of why Vraja-lila is considered more relishable.

The concept of Goloka being totally different than Vaikuntha is a metaphor. Consider this:


CC Ādi 5.15 -21



He we are told that Vaikuntha and Gokula are infinite and all-pervading. Why would we be told that? Because it is true. The difference between Vaikuntha and Krishna-lila isn't the location, both exist everywhere (that is what infinite and all-pervading means), but experiencing that reality is only known and accessible to liberated souls. The differences in the lilas written about Vaikuntha or Ayodhya or Goloka are really meant to teach the jiva what the highest form of bhakti is all about. That is why all roads lead to Vraja-lila as the highest of the high - why? It is there where we see the most intimacy, so it is held up as the highest of the high. Not because when you attain to lila that your life will be exactly as is written about in lila, that you will be living in a simple village for eternity (when there are entire worlds to explore and have fun with) but that mood written in the lila-granthas, the mood of the intimacy shown there between Krishna and the sakhis, that is what is the highest realm of lila. That is what those granthas are for, not as an exact duplicate of all that you will experience when you attain your siddha-svarupa. We are told by the acharyas that the reality of aprakrita-lila is only known to liberated souls that have experience of it, and that whatever has been written is not telling the whole story:

From Jaiva Dharma



You will never forget what you learned to enable you to get there. The whole point of learning it all in the first place is so that you live with God on the highest level of realization. God wants really smart people to play with. People who are able to experience all that he can show them. But first you need to be able to deal with the reality of God, and deal with it in an intimate manner. That is the purpose of Vraja-lila.

Further defnition of sthayi bhava, Jiva Goswami's commentary to BRS 3.1.3: Sthayi (what is permanent) here is a synonym for sthayi-bhava. Therefore the sthayi bhava is that which does not give up its form" Further evidence: "I pay my respects repeatedly to those who CONSTANTLY and eagerly mediate upon the Lord as their husband, son, wellwisher, brother, father or friend." BRS 1.2.308

Sambandha-rupa-ragatmika bhakti is that bhakti inspired by great absorption arising from identifying oneself as the parent, friend or servant of Govinda. This refers to the bhakti of the cowherd people ...This is because these relationships in Vraja have a predominance of intense affection (raga) caused by LACK OF AWARENESS THAT KRSNA IS GOD."

So the sthayi bhava is permanent and constant in the inhabitants of Vraja, and is caused by a lack of awareness that Krsna is God. So it is not that they sometimes forget He is God- they always forget that.

I think I should say something about the purpose of those types of writings by the acharyas. Sometimes people get caught up in debating technicalities that are really not important and besides the point of those teachings. Those writings like the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and all the rest, they are not written as voyeuristic tour guides of Goloka (as is commonly believed). They have an entirely other purpose. They have a singular purpose, and that is to teach you what Krishna wants from you in a relationship. Vraja is touted as the highest because that is where everyone treats Krishna as an equal, that is contrasted to Krishna as a prince where he is above the common people. It is really just a metaphor for how we need to give up our worship of God in our development of bhava and rasa, and treat Krishna as an equal, as our soul mate, as our closest companion. That is really all those writings are trying to get across; trying to show bhaktas how they should approach Krishna in their meditation. In reality all other details are all directly revealed at bhava-bhakti, and that is something that those not on that level can simply not understand. But the books are written for a purpose, and that is to get you ready for bhava-bhakti where your relationship with Krishna starts, one to one. From then on all is revealed directly to you by Krishna.

Sthayi bhava is permanent, but it is not about forgetting Krishna is God, the idea of feeling equal or even superior is how yogamaya functions, it is not an inherent aspect of sthayi bhava. Do you have some source where the inherent nature of sthayi bhava is said to be forgetfulness, or is that your extrapolation from the idea that only by not knowing where you are and who Krishna is that you can treat him as an equal? If the latter, that is simply not true. The idea is that Krishna wants you see him as your soul mate, he wants you to see him and treat him as your equal, rather than be worshipful. That is the point of these teachings, they are NOT a voyeurs tour guide to Vraja, they are teaching manuals for sadhakas on the raganuga marga. That is all they are. Do not take them as something else. It is in fact possible to see Krishna as an equal even though you know he is God, all it takes is realizing that Krishna is your soul mate, your other half, inside and a part of you, knowing that you are eternally together, so therefore is no need to treat him as a worshipful deity since he is part of you - especially since he says he doesn't want that. All it takes is for Krishna to treat you as an equal, then it comes naturally for you to reciprocate in kind.

You must remember that the ideology of complete forgetfulness is full of problems. How would you deal with the fact that no one grows old? No one dies? Being an eternally youthful being is only going to work if you know what is going on. Otherwise to keep you ignorant of the truth Krishna would have to make you practically an imbecile. In truth it is simply a misunderstanding of lila to think you do not know where you are, who you are, and what God is in lila. Krishna doesn't want imbeciles, he wants the jiva to be the most enlightened it can be, this is so that the jiva knows the difference between itself and Krishna within itself, since the jiva is always inherently under the control of Krishna.

The baddha-jiva thinks itself the doer, unaware of the presence of Krishna within itself controlling it's actions and mind. The reality is the jiva is simply the passenger, like Arjuna in the chariot. The driver is Krishna. Not knowing this the jiva thinks itself to be the doer, to be Krishna. The mukta-jiva knows that it is not the doer, it sees and feels Krishna within as the doer, it realizes the truth of it's inner relationship with Krishna, it experiences just how close Krishna is within itself. That is the type of person that enters lila, that is the type of realized soul Krishna wants to enjoy rasa with, someone who knows the internal difference between itself and Krishna, someone who doesn't mistake himself or herself as Krishna, as the driver of the chariot of the body and mind.

I am not a big fan of Bhanu Swami's translations, as we see in the previous quote from BRS you offered where he mistranslates an essential word and changes what is being taught, so again with your quote of him from his Sarartha Darsini translation I cannot accept as accurate without checking out the original. Unfortunately he doesn't include the original and all we get is his translation. I couldn't see a version with the original included online, so I can't take what he wrote seriously.

But that aside and giving him the benefit of the doubt, he writes that it is love which covers over the devotee, not the sthayi bhava itself, there is a difference. Love is an emotion, whereas sthayi bhava is a specific type of relationship (friend, lover, parent).

As for you other claim, can you show where it says nitya-siddhas don't know the material world exists? Also the idea that in lila people wouldn't notice the lack of growing old or death and take it is normal, that presupposes that they forget all the spiritual knowledge they gained as sadhakas and are essentially completely ignorant of spiritual truths. That is certainly not taught in any shastra, and as I have shown, in shastra and lila-granthas the residents of Vraja are shown to be completely enlightened and speak philosophically on a very high level with full knowledge of Krishna. So all your ideas about not knowing about death etc. is not how they are portrayed.