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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 27, 2015 22:28:17 GMT -5
Good to know. You're very welcome.
How do they even know this? Do they know what a 'priya-sakhi' is? Sounds like major mental speculation to me.
Guru seva is of course very important and should be done as a matter of duty, so that's not an issue. But this is focused solely on external service, which, for those only qualified for vaidhi-bhakti, is the standard approach, ie: more external than internal. It is for beginners.
This sounds like typical hard core institutional rhetoric. It is complete nonsense meant to bully you into submission. It is clearly the mentality of foolish kanisthas who have a very limited and skewed understanding of bhakti. There is no offense and there is something more and better. I was Temple President of 3 ISKCON temples, Montreal, Toronto and Chicago and those temples flourished during that time. I was never heavy-handed like that and nor did I allow anyone else to be that way. I would have crushed it in a second.
These people do not understand the philosophy very well. That is obvious. Everything is a slogan or catch-phrase used to badger you and others.
Then how did he become a priya-sakhi of Radha? How is he qualified to be a guru if he doesn't read the books given by our acaryas specifically for our spiritual advancement?
This is true. It was meant to curb anyone from prematurely engaging in that practice when they were not qualified. As you know, I have given all of the requisite qualifications in my book for every stage of progress.
Also true, but BVT was targeting non-devotees and kanisthas who were not qualified. That's what they don't understand, along with a lot of other misunderstandings.
There is absolutely no mandate that one must be completely free from sex desire before reading the lila books. One should be at least at the stage of nistha, where a significant portion of one's anarthas have been reduced. Viśvanātha Cakravartī talks about lust in Mādhurya-kadambinī to give us a broader perspective on the issue of lust in conjunction with these pastimes:
Although lust is also considered a fault on the path of bhakti, one can still enter the devotional path, despite being still afflicted by lust and other material desires. Śrīmad-Bhāgavata says:
A person who faithfully hears or describes the Lord’s pastimes of rāsa-līlā with the gopīs of Vraja attains supreme devotion of the Lord. He quickly becomes steady and conquers over the senses, giving up lust, the disease of the heart. SB, 10.33.39
In this text, “after attaining supreme devotion” is an unfinished act showing that bhakti can be attained even though one has lusty desires. This shows the most independent nature and power of bhakti to destroy lusty desires.
Sometimes lusty desires exist even while practicing devotion. From verses like, “If the most sinful person worships Me exclusively...” and, “Though my devotee is afflicted by lusty desires...” it is clear that though lusty desires may exist in a devotee, still he is not condemned even slightly. MK, 1.11
Here are some further highlights from Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary on the above verse in Śrīmad-bhāgavatam (10.33.39):
One who continuously hears, glorifies or writes poetry about this autumnal rāsa-līlā and similar pastimes of Kṛṣṇa described by other poets, first of all, even if he has the heart disease of material lust, he becomes imbued with prema. Then, by it’s effect, the disease of the heart is destroyed. Thus, it is understood here that this prema is independent; it is not weak or dependent like jñāna-yoga.
…One who faithfully hears and glorifies Kṛṣṇa’s rāsa dance is described as learned, for he does not foolishly doubt, “How can kṛṣṇa-prema appear if material lust is present?” Kṛṣṇa-prema will definitely appear in that person who is devoid of foolishness, and who accepts the statements of scripture with full faith. However, kṛṣṇa-prema will not appear within those who have no faith in Kṛṣṇa or who offend the Holy Name.
How do you know for certain he is even at the stage of prema? There is no 'simultaneously engaged in nitya-lila'. If he is engaged in this world he is voluntarily on the madhyama platform and only when in private meditation is there any engagement in the lila. If it is true that he does not read the lila books, then I doubt he is liberated. No devotee in prema would refuse to read these books. You also never answered my questions about how much time you spend getting direct personal association with your guru. Can you please address those questions? Also, please eMail me and tell me the name of your guru.
Pure garbage. Whoever said this is barely a devotee. What ignorance.
The acaryas have taught us to do both - external and internal.
SP said he went to "Vaikuntha" not Goloka. Big difference. And that is also an absurd argument.
More garbage. It's all about our desires to be with Krsna.
I would avoid associating with these devotees at all costs. Do not speak to them about any of these subjects. They will only commit more aparadha. People who spew nonsense like this usually end up leaving after a while. I've seen it many times. There is very little to no bhakti in their words what to speak of zero intelligence. It is all bullying rhetoric and nothing more. Their understanding is wrong and dangerous.
If you can't talk to your guru directly about these things then that is an even more serious problem. What kind of personal relationship do you have with your guru?
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Post by RG on Feb 28, 2015 7:21:31 GMT -5
Thanks Uttamasloka,
I'll email you. That'll be best.
RG das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 28, 2015 11:42:09 GMT -5
OK.
Here are a few more references to show that these statements by those devotees are absurd and very wrong.
Srila Prabhupada does not agree with their fanatic attitudes. This is an excerpt from a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 1.2.33, Vrindavan, 12 November 1972:
So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is apprenticeship. Vaidhī-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, parā-bhakti, that is rāgānugā-bhakti. This rāgānugā-bhakti, we have to come to after surpassing the vaidhī-bhakti.
In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that… Shastric process also regulation, that is required. Without shastric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the shastric process only and do not try to improve ourself… The shastric process is kaniṣṭha-adhikāra, lowest stage of devotional service.
arcāyām eva harayepūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehatena tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣusa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ
Generally, people come to this temple, they are very devoted to the Deity. They offer their respects, flowers and other things, make the regulative process, circumambulate. This is nice beginning, but one has to go above this. One has to know who is actually bhakta, who is, Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. One has to do good for others. That is madhyama-adhikārī.
If I become satisfied only with these regulative principles for worshiping the Deity in the temple and following the regulative principles daily, but if I have no other idea, then sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. Prākṛta means on the material platform. Such devotee can fall down at any moment, because he’s on the prākṛta stage. And prākṛta means this guṇamayī, prakṛti. It is very strong.
So any devotee can fall down if he remains prākṛta-bhakta. So he has to raise himself above this to the madhyama-adhikāra. So here it is said that sva-nirmiteṣu nirviṣṭo bhuṅkte bhūteṣu tad-guṇān. So we are not enjoying actually. We are enjoying the interaction of the three modes of material nature. And we are thinking…
The same thing, as my Guru Mahārāja used to say, that licking up the bottle of honey. That is not real honey. You have to open the bottle of the honey and lick up the real honey, then you’ll get taste. That is advancement of spiritual knowledge.
And here is BVT's statement from Caitanya-siksamrita about making progress and not remaining stuck at the lower levels:
On the path of gradual development, care must be taken to to become steadily elevated to a higher level, no matter what the present level. By good fortune, the tendency of the soul is to elevate itself gradually, but there are certainly obstacles along the path, and so the soul may fail to reach the ultimate goal. Those who desire to reach a higher standard must always be conscious of this fact.
In progressing from one level of life to the next, two things should be considered. The aspirant should be firmly fixed in one position to take a firm step to the next higher level. Then in order to advance successfully to the higher level, when one foot gives up the previous place, that foot must firmly fix itself in the higher level before the other foot can follow on to that new level. Simultaneously, the aspirant must give up attachment to the lower level, becoming firmly established on the higher level. By moving too quickly, the aspirant will fall. By moving too slowly the results will come slowly
...Some people lament that they have not attained devotion to Krsna but at the same time they do not make any real attempt to raise themselves to the level of Krsna bhakti. They remain bound to one of the levels and do not attempt to progress to the practices of the next higher level- this is known as niyamagraha. If people stop at one stage, how can they expect to progress to the top?
Thus, many devotees on the level of vaidhi-bhakti make no attempt to progress to bhava bhakti, but then lament they have not attained bhava. Again many people remain attached to the rules of varnasrama and are indifferent to bhava and prema. This bondage to one level is an obstacle to their advancement.
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Post by Rg on Feb 28, 2015 19:26:23 GMT -5
These statements are great.
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Post by niscala on Feb 28, 2015 20:54:13 GMT -5
What an exciting story, RG prabhu, thank you for sharing it here. Stories like yours, which we see over and over, underline the importance of this very timely book!
What others say you should be doing, or not doing, is not as important as the indications in the sastra, but even the sastra does not require a certain level of advancement for raganuga bhakti, for the consideration that one should be on a certain level of advancement before giving up dependence on rules, only applies to vaidhi bhakti:
Because of following after the rāgātmikās, those practicing rāgānugā-bhakti practice bhakti with no limitations. That means that there is no specific rule concerning the time at which they will give up dependence on the rules of scripture. Is there a limit to how long those practicing vaidhī-bhakti should depend on the rules? This verse answers (at the stage of bhava). Bhāva here means rati or the stage of bhāva-bhakti after sādhana-bhakti.BRS 1.2.293
So no one can say that you are not advanced enough for raganuga bhakti- advancement is not a consideration. It is a big consideration in vaidhi- one needs to be at bhava, the highest stage possible in this material world, before giving up dependence on rules of scripture. In raganuga, the only consideration is strong desire to attain the moods of the Vrajabasis.
More proof that advancement is not a consideration:
This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether he is qualified for the path of raganuga bhakti or not. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter,or seeing it, that greed will arise in him
RVC, 1.5
“Raganuga-bhakti starts from the time we develop the slightest hint of interest. No one steps into raganuga because the scriptures order to do so." Bhakti Sandharbha, 3.12
If no one has to take permission from the sastra, in order to follow ragaunuga, then what to speak of the devotees, or even guru, who gain their authority and authenticity from following the sastra?
This does not mean that we should no longer read the sastra however:
"However, as soon as the greed manifests in a person (for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the vraja-vāsīs), and he develops an inclination for rāga-bhakti, the practitioner of rāgānugā-bhakti does not depend any longer on scriptural rules and logic. Thus, it is greatly superior.However, wherever that greed has appeared, it is understood that the person must have studied the scriptures in order to attain that greed. It is also necessary to study the scriptures in order to understand the proper sādhana for rāgānugā-bhakti."
By the way, the confusion among the devotees regarding raganuga bhakti is quite normal and expected- so don't let it disturb you:
The impelling ordinances of scripture are specifically intended for those who are not inclined naturally, and the order in which such procedures are meant to be carried out is also prescribed for them. Such people experience a great deal of confusion and mental agitation, and because of the absence of taste, they do not understand the nature of rāgātmikā-bhakti. Bhakti Sandharbha.
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Post by Rg on Mar 2, 2015 0:07:10 GMT -5
More nice references. Thanks!
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Post by madhavalata on Jun 21, 2015 5:47:03 GMT -5
Hare Krishna. I just would like to contribute to the statement of Srila Prabhupada that everything is in his books. This statement is not limiting, it is actually re-stating what Srila Prabhupada wanted from us and that is to study his books well, studying not just reading and with that we will be able to access all the bhakti books written by the acharyas of our honorable sampradaya.
I remember, for instance, that the Bhaktirasamrita sindhu was one of the books in the bhakta program, we were reading from it daily from the very beginning. These books anyway reveal as much as one can grasp, no book should be read only once.
I also remember the Caitanya Caritamrta sold on the streets in US as Srila Prabhupada wanted. Caitanya Caritmrita, to my humble understanding, is the book that opens the doors to the understanding of the other bhakti books. That's why we have everything in SP's books, because without his books as foundation we will not be able to have realization on books such as Ujjvala Nilamani or Krishna Karnamrta. For instance I have these two books, but I still did not read them, I sometimes look into them if while reading other books I get the reference. I know I am not there.
I, because of my limited understanding, do not venture easily into reading books if it is clearly a very advanced book, second if I cannot find lectures on the subject matter to listen at while reading. Even to read the SB, I read it 3 times from 1 to 9 and then I read the 10th canto, which now I cannot give up reading and I continually search for classes on it. While with the Sri Brhad Bhagavatamrta I felt immediately comfortable with or Gopala Campu, which I had to go anyway back to read it several times.
In conclusion, the content of the books come up when one is ready to receive it, otherwise one can also read, but the understanding and realizations remain shallow.
Uttamasloka Prabhu, thanks for sending your book, I started to read it and I went through carefully the portion where you illustrated who qualifies to read it and I did not find my category almost until the end of the chapter. It is good reading. Thank you.
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Post by jayananda108 on Sept 16, 2015 18:02:58 GMT -5
I wonder that when it mentions that one must have the adhikar to read madhurya rasik lilas , do they really mean the adhikar of being interested in madhurya rasa? pastimes from govinda lila mrta, gita govinda, krsna karnamrta shouldn't be read by those who have a interested in sakhya rasa, cause it would be detrimental in their development of that rasa, and those who have a interest in madhurya have the adhikar to read such books. Can someone confirm this understanding?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Sept 17, 2015 0:09:59 GMT -5
Part of the adhikara is one's sincere and eager interest in madhurya-rasa and its associated lilas. Neophyte devotees who have not read Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-bhagavatam and Caitanya-caritamrita, should first study those books to get a solid foundation in Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy. Without that foundation, venturing into those lila books would be considered premature, because one is not philosophically grounded enough to understand them in the proper context.
Jiva Gosvami also mentions in his Bhakti-sandarbha that if one reads the lilas of madhurya-rasa and becomes sexually agitated then they should stop reading them because they do not have the adhikara. Also, if one reads these lilas and considers them to be mundane, then they do not have the proper adhikara either.
Yes, it is correct that one should primarily focus on the lilas of the rasa one aspires for, so those aspiring for sakhya-rasa, will not be nourished by reading the lilas focusing on madhurya-rasa. The exception would be one who aspires to be a priya-narma-sakha, which is a special group of sakhas headed by Subala, who are directly involved in assisting Krsna in his affairs with Radha and the rest of the gopis of Vraja.
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Post by Gopal Krishna Das on Nov 28, 2023 5:58:21 GMT -5
Thank you very much for this wonderfully detailed and well referenced topic Uttamasloka Prabhu. There is a fanatical mindset that has been lingering since Srila Prabhupada passed away and many fanatics misquote Srila Prabhupada causing a divisive atmosphere that many Indians have found as toxic with many western disciples and converts to ISKCON. Just as Srila Prabhupada has many times praised the glory of India many in the ISKCON also seek to create a separatist mentality between the followers of ISKCON from the Sanatan Dharma followers of India, when in fact Srila Prabhupada has pronounced in many of his conversations the greatness of India and the sanatan dharma from where it originates. Just because Srila Prabhu has said at some or another that there is some form of distinction that we are not Hindus, that we are all together not Hindus, and yet at times he also acknowledges in his purports in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita where Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu himself, pertains to us followers of sanatan dharma as Hindus in general. Yet we are both not directly hindu and the same time we are. But it has to be understood in the correct and appropriate context. In many passages it may seem that Srila Prabhupada contradicts his own statements, but in reality if one is a true student of Srila Prabhupda, one has to carefully consider the time, place and circumstances as Srila Prabhupada has also often reminded us to be mindful of. This goes the same with the ritvik system. How can Srila Prabhupada go against the entire parampara system himself after quoting many times that he wished his disciples must come to a point and platform of also becoming gurus. His main point during the ritvik issue was that there were many trying to break the cardinal rule of taking disciples whilst he was still alive and without his permission. So, while he was still alive, he wanted the ritvik system to be in place. He was furious at disciples of bypassing his authority and disrespecting Him (the living guru of his time). He would not have ever wanted disciples in the future to be impersonal. If that was the case, then we can just bypass him and go directly to Krishna who is the original guru in the first place.
So, this kind of western attitude and lack of understanding of the intricacies of our sanatan dharma system, of the gaudiya vaisnava system, is all rooted in our very lowly birth and influence from our previous christian or abrahamic influence. In many instances Krishna is very merciful and yet at times he want to be the sole benefactor and only point of worship while in some instances He would say that he prefers that we become dasa anu dasa. And that worship of His pure devotee is the greatest. One needs to understand the bhava and cultural intricacies of vedic thought in order to deeply adopt the culture and philosophy of our very rich sanatan dharma and gaudiya vaisnava tradition. At times Srila Prabhupada tells us to recognize and follow the great culture and traditions of India, and at times he says sanatan dharma, then at times he mentions gaudiya vaishnavism and even uses terms like hindus and vedic. So, one must understand context and not be so plain and simple as the abrahamic notions of tradition and culture. Indeed, India is very rich in culture, traditions, spirituality and religion. All which we must see proper context. At times things can be simple and uncomplicated, and at times it can be so general and encompassing or universal. This is where wisdom comes in as we progress and advance in Krishna Consciousness, sanatan dharma, vainavism or vedism.
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