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Post by 108sahajiyanatha on Jan 4, 2016 4:41:41 GMT -5
Dandavats Uttam Prabhu,
I am having problems to understand a concept here in the Harinama Cintamani on the section of Bhajana-pranali concerning the mutual discussions that take place between Guru and sisya about the ekadasha bhavas. I will quote from one english translation by Sarvasaksi dasa:
"If one is attracted in a different way, then with a honest heart one should explain his desire to his spiritual master."
"Considering one's words, the spiritual master will then give a different identity. In this way he reveals the true identity to which the disciple is attracted."
"As the spiritual master and the disciple converse in this way, the disciple's spiritual identity becomes finally settled."
If the Guru is indeed qualified why wouldn't he be able to ascertain the FIRST time the disciple's actual svarupa why does he "GIVE" a different identity later on? it almost sounds as if the Guru isn't fully conversant and that the svarupa is some kind of dress that can be changed. Isn't the svarupa of the jiva already there just it is in seed form?
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lal
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by lal on Jan 4, 2016 13:48:17 GMT -5
Dandavats Uttam Prabhu, I am having problems to understand a concept here in the Harinama Cintamani on the section of Bhajana-pranali concerning the mutual discussions that take place between Guru and sisya about the ekadasha bhavas. I will quote from one english translation by Sarvasaksi dasa: "If one is attracted in a different way, then with a honest heart one should explain his desire to his spiritual master." "Considering one's words, the spiritual master will then give a different identity. In this way he reveals the true identity to which the disciple is attracted." "As the spiritual master and the disciple converse in this way, the disciple's spiritual identity becomes finally settled." If the Guru is indeed qualified why wouldn't he be able to ascertain the FIRST time the disciple's actual svarupa why does he "GIVE" a different identity later on? it almost sounds as if the Guru isn't fully conversant and that the svarupa is some kind of dress that can be changed. Isn't the svarupa of the jiva already there just it is in seed form? What is being said is that the guru judges the disciple and gives him instruction on his bhajan, his meditation on what type of self-conception he or she should try to develop in relation to Krishna. If the disciple feels uncomfortable with that, then he can tell the guru and the guru can adjust that. This is not about the guru being omniscient and knowing perfectly the heart of the sisya in the eternal sense, do not expect that, the guru is not God, not omniscient. This is still on the development level of raga, it is not the perfected level of bhava-bhakti. Plus, what this is really about is something else. The Gaudiya tradition is in most part a madhurya-bhava tradition, therefore that is where the teaching usually leads the followers. But, when it comes to raganuga bhajan in madhurya-bhava, which is a meditation on the transformation of the inner psyche into that of a female lover of Krishna, many males are not comfortable with that, they are not ready. Therefore this instruction is really meant for them. This isn't about the guru seeing like God into the disciple, this is more about the practical level of bhajan the disciple is ready for or not. |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 4, 2016 18:16:39 GMT -5
First of all, Lal's comment has many good points.
Second, when I was studying Harinama-cintamani I read a comparison by Jagadananda prabhu of 4 different translations, and based on that, I chose to use Jagadananda's translation. Here is his rendering of the section you quoted:
The key point to understand is that the guru does not give you your spiritual identity. That is not how it works, nor how the previous acaryas explained it. The guru gives you the knowledge of how the internal practices of raganuga-bhakti work, and he assists you in the implementation of those details according to your inclinations. The guru doesn't know every disciple's eternal spiritual identity. Bhakti is the process of 'self'-realization, so the realizations take place within one's heart and the guru guides the disciple accordingly.
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Post by 108sahajiyanatha on Jan 5, 2016 1:57:37 GMT -5
I liked the explanations of Uttama Prabhu. You have correctly mentioned "The key point to understand is that the guru does not GIVE you your spiritual identity. That is not how it works, nor how the previous acaryas explained it."
Is there something in the translation that is a little funny. I still am not convinced though that not being omniscient means one cannot know the disciples svarupa isn't the Sad-Guru suppose to be the external manifestation of the Caittya-Guru I am not saying he is equal in all respects just that he is in direct communion with Krsna so why Krsna can't tell the Sad-Guru the disciple's svarupa. What about Prema dasa babaji in in Jaiva Dharma, while in trance he reveals the svarupa of Sannyasi Maharaja as Ramana Manjari just as sannyasi was entering his kutira. In one lecture Srila Prabhupada mentions that the spiritual master knows the pulse beat of his disciples.
"When Dhruva Mahārāja was talking with his mother, Sunīti, of all the incidents that had taken place in the palace, Nārada was not present. Thus the question may be raised how Nārada overheard all these topics. The answer is that Nārada is trikāla-jña; he is so powerful that he can understand the past, future and present of everyone’s heart, JUST LIKE THE SUPERSOUL, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore, after understanding the strong determination of Dhruva Mahārāja, Nārada came to help him. It may be explained in this way: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is present in everyone’s heart, and as soon as He understands that a living entity is serious about entering devotional service, He sends His representative. In this way Nārada was sent to Dhruva Mahārāja. This is explained in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta. Guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja: by the grace of the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa, one can enter into devotional service. Because of Dhruva Mahārāja’s determination, Kṛṣṇa, the Supersoul, immediately sent His representative, Nārada, to initiate him." -SB4.8.26
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 6, 2016 2:30:52 GMT -5
Krsna could tell him, but that's not what the acaryas teach. None of them say anything like that. And one's diksa-guru may not be the one who guides you on the path of raganuga-bhakti. It could be a siksa guru.
Bhaktivinoda Thakura does not give additional details to help us understand that exchange. None of the acaryas teach that your guru will reveal your svarupa. We never had a relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world so that relationship does not exist. Only the potential for a relationship, and that is based on our desires. It is not pre-determined.
That is related to the disciple's conditioning and the guru's understanding of that helps him guide the disciple properly in terms of his sadhana.
Narada Muni is a special personality. Not all gurus are trikala-jna. Srila Prabhupada speaks on a morning walk, April 8, 1975, Mayapur:
Prabhupada: Yes. Pure devotee does not aspire anything, simply to be engaged in loving service of the Lord, wherever it may be. It doesn't matter. [break]
Jayadvaita: …they know everything and they’re perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that…
Prabhupada: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.
Jayadvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.
Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya is explained, bhakti-samsanah: “One who’s preaching the cult of devotional service, he’s acarya.” Then why should you find any discrepancy?
Jayadvaita: Because we see… For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then…
Jayadvaita: …an imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is not the… Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.
Jayadvaita: And that is the perfection.
Prabhupada: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna.
Jayadvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?
Prabhupada: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That’s all.
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Post by dharmavir on Dec 27, 2018 8:20:45 GMT -5
Have our Acharyas and Goswamis mentioned that siddha deha discussions that take place between the Guru and disciple when the eternal identity of the disciple is being ascertained can be a siksha Guru?
The role of the Guru is assisting in implementing the internal practices of raganuga bhakti. Is the Guru being referred to here can be sikha guru or is it always the diksha Guru?
Thank you
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Post by Uttamasloka on Dec 28, 2018 0:32:57 GMT -5
Have our Acharyas and Goswamis mentioned that siddha deha discussions that take place between the Guru and disciple when the eternal identity of the disciple is being ascertained can be a siksha Guru? The role of the Guru is assisting in implementing the internal practices of raganuga bhakti. Is the Guru being referred to here can be sikha guru or is it always the diksha Guru? Thank you None of the acaryas specify that one can only discuss these matters with one's diksa-guru. It is not an issue so it is never discussed. This is a modern misconception. It is understood that Gaudiya Vaisnavas can have many siksa-gurus and it may be one or more of those siksa-gurus who guide the devotee in their raganuga-bhakti bhajana. In Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva-dharma, Vrajanatha and Vraja Kumara get instruction on these very details from Gopala Guru Gosvami, who is their siksa-guru. |
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