|
Post by urmila on Jan 27, 2013 13:28:07 GMT -5
This statement on page 214 I find to be incorrect according to BRS:
"And you cannot attain bhava unless you have been meditating on your desired service via your siddhadeha."
1) There is vaidhi bhava which can be attained without siddha deha meditation 2) Raga can awaken at bhava or even at prema through krpa rather than be cultivated beforehand through raga sadhana. Such krpa can come to one who has performed vaidhi sadhana or one who has not performed any sadhana. Obviously the latter is extremely rare.
So the word "cannot" is not correct.
Vaidhi bhava and Vaidhi prema can take one to Vaikuntha or to Dvaraka. Some residents of Dvaraka are in vaidhi, and some are in raga. For example, devotees who are in vaidhi bhakti and develop conjugal attraction for Krishna become queens or assistants to the queens in Dvaraka.
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 13:49:48 GMT -5
Perhaps I should have said, "it's almost impossible" instead of "cannot".
1) I'm looking for the quote from VCT where he says that even vaidhi-bhaktas have to follow someone, implying a similar process, ie: you can't follow a Vaikuntha associate in your material identity and conception.
2) Developing raga is precisely what is required to attain bhava. How can you possibly attain bhava without developing raga in your sadhana and bhajan? It makes no sense. You have to be attracted to Krsna and that is raga, even though it isn't fully developed during sadhana. I don't get your point.
Krpa-siddhi is such a rare exception that no one should consider it a viable option. Why did the acaryas spend so much time writing these detailed books? Why didn't they all just write one or two verses and be done with it?
I agree with your last points.
|
|
|
Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 28, 2013 22:30:58 GMT -5
1) There is vaidhi bhava which can be attained without siddha deha meditation I do not agree. The process of meditation of siddha deha is obviously based on the ancient system of Bhuta Suddhi described in Pancaratra. This is Vaidhi bhakti sadhana in which the sadhaka meditates on and creates a pure mental body in order to be qualified to perform any japa, homa or puja. It is presented in Hari Bhakti Vilasa and slightly different versions are followed by Sri Vaishnavas in homes and temples. I can explain it in detail if anyone is interested. Similarly we find shortened versions of this Bhuta Suddhi presented in the Arcana Paddhatis of the Gaudiya math and ISKCON. These consist of meditating on having a pure body with the assistance of a dhyana mantra(s) like na ham vipro and divyam sri hari mandir etc.
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 28, 2013 23:46:28 GMT -5
Thanks for that info Gaurakesava. I for one would love to hear about that.
|
|
vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
|
Post by vishnudas on Jan 31, 2013 14:29:22 GMT -5
Thank you for this revelation on Bhuta suddhi, as Gaura Kesava prabhu has described that there is, when qualified through meditation on siddha deha (even in Vaidhi sadhana) then one can then qualify to perform japa, homa or puja. Is this the process the Shri sampradaya follows and is it the same or different type of siddha deha than a Gaudiya vaishnava meditates on ? It seems reversed in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition where one is told to hear from realized souls, chant japa, offer puja, have Hari-kirtan, follow certain regulations, then as one is purified one develops their siddha deha, then naturally flows to raganuga. Or please correct me if I misunderstand. Re. Krpa siddha: Srila Prabhupada said that Jagai and Madhai are an example of krpa siddha, so this refers to those who get the direct blessing from the Lord directly without first following the principles of bhakti, which of course is rare. But I submit this statement by Srila Prabhupada : "Another devotee is called kṛpā-siddha. Kṛpā-siddha means even if he has not followed strictly all the regulative principle, still, by the mercy of ācārya or a devotee, or by Kṛṣṇa, he is elevated to the perfectional stage." So maybe we are talking about different types of krpa siddha here, one in the realm of attaining sadhana and one in the realm of attaining raganuga. Please excuse my lack of knowledge in this area. So I guess my real question would be: Are we, as disciples of Srila Prabhupada , in some way krpa-siddhas to some degree? As we are being "elevated to the perfectional stage" by the mercy of the acharya, in most cases without previously following regulative principles. Before I became devotee in 1970, I was actually following the 4 regs already due to other pious associations. Then by Prabhupada's grace, reading his books, I realized the purpose behind following all these principles. And the ultimate purpose of these purificatory processes of course is simply to develop my relationship with Krishna which is consummated in the process of raganuga bhakti. But I'd like to have any of my misconceptions about krpa siddha dispelled by shastra and quotes if anyone can enlighten, thank you! ~ yhs
|
|
|
Post by swamiashram on Jan 31, 2013 15:04:53 GMT -5
visnudas wrote, "So maybe we are talking about different types of krpa siddha here, one in the realm of attaining sadhana and one in the realm of attaining raganuga."
Maybe not. Sadhana is, by definition, not siddha; it is a practice, whose sadhya, or perfection, is bhava. Also, there is no proper dichotomy between sadhana and raganuga. Raganuga is one of two kinds of sadhana discussed in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu: vaidhi and raganuga. Both are sadhana bhakti, with vaidhi sadhana bhakti generally leading to bhava colored by an appreciation of the Lord's Godhood, and raganuga sadhana bhakti leading to love colored by raga, or affection for Krishna, generally in Vraja.
|
|
|
Post by swamiashram on Jan 31, 2013 15:18:56 GMT -5
I think it's also worth noting that anyone engaged in uttama bhakti is an object of mercy. As far as I can see, there is no bhakti without mercy. We see in many places, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Caitanya-cartamrita, Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu, Madhurya Kadambini, and others, that get bhakti "somehow or other," or "by great good fortune," or some such phrase. Often the word used is yadrcchaya. Yadrccha means independent, and we read that bhakti is as independent as the Lord himself. She goes where she will. How is it that she enters one person's heart and not another's? She takes shelter in the hearts of surrendered devotees, and those who are madhyama bhaktas engaged in preaching, who act as the Lord's kripa shakti, may for some reason show mercy to someone. When that happens, bhakti follows that preacher's lead and enters the object of mercy's heart. Such an object of mercy is often called atibhagya, or incomprehensively fortunate. brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavana jiva. The example sometimes to illustrate just how rare that luck is is that of a turtle swimming in the ocean who surfaces to take a breath. If there's a board floating in the ocean, and it has a knothole in it, and the turtle's head happens to surface in the middle of that hole . . . well, maybe you get the idea. I have sometimes characterized it, perhaps too glibly, as dumb luck.
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 31, 2013 18:14:21 GMT -5
I see two aspects to mercy. We all agree that there is an abundance of mercy in all of our own personal journeys on this path, and our advancement was not due simply to mechanical endeavors in exchange for promised rewards.
Regarding the krpa-siddha, I understand it as someone who achieves the perfectional stage more or less instantly, upon receiving a special, rare benediction from Krsna or a devotee who is on the stage of bhava or prema, and is thus qualified to bestow such mercy. No devotee below that stage can do that. You can't give what you don't have in this regard.
Lord Caitanya bestowed prema like that on many fortunate souls, despite the fact that none of them had performed any sadhana or knew any details of the required processes. That's what krpa-siddhi means.
We on the path of sadhana-bhakti are certainly recipients of krpa/mercy, but that is not exactly the same thing as is inferred by krpa-siddha.
|
|
|
Post by swamibvt on Feb 1, 2013 16:56:29 GMT -5
Raganugas follow ragatmikas forever. In perfection their status remains slightly different from those that they follow.
|
|
|
Post by gaurakeshava on Feb 2, 2013 13:24:40 GMT -5
Thank you for this revelation on Bhuta suddhi, as Gaura Kesava prabhu has described that there is, when qualified through meditation on siddha deha (even in Vaidhi sadhana) then one can then qualify to perform japa, homa or puja. Is this the process the Shri sampradaya follows and is it the same or different type of siddha deha than a Gaudiya vaishnava meditates on ? It seems reversed in the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition where one is told to hear from realized souls, chant japa, offer puja, have Hari-kirtan, follow certain regulations, then as one is purified one develops their siddha deha, then naturally flows to raganuga. Or please correct me if I misunderstand. Sorry for not replying sooner. Bhuta Suddhi is practiced also by Sri Vaisnavas no doubt and different Bhuta Suddhis are given in different Pancaratra Samhitas. So they have home and several temple versions of this rite. However the Bhuta Suddhi that I am referring to is Gaudiya Bhuta Suddhi which is given in Hari Bhakti Vilasa by Sanatana and Gopal Bhatta Goswamis. Gaudiya Vaisnavism also has rituals based on Pancaratra so it is not surprising that Gauidyas also perform a type of Bhuta Suddhi. It is to be performed by Vaidhi Bhaktas before japa, homa and puja. It is a mental process which normally involves guided meditations while mentally chanting different bija mantras during pranayama. The material elements (Bhutas) of the body are mentally dissolved after destroying sin personified within the body. They are reintegrated into each other in a reverse order of creation back into the spiritual world and again pure spiritual elements are created from there from which a new spiritual body is created for the sadhaka to place his soul and the supersoul back into. The atman and paramatman being mentally kept above the head ready to reintegrate into the new spiritualized body. This is followed by the practice of Prana Pratistha in which the new spiritual body is given life airs/prana accompanied by a mediation on Prana Shakti devi within the heart. Only in such a newly created form made of spiritually pure elements body can the sadhaka then be qualified to actually worship the Lord through japa, homa and puja. So it is a prerequisite to all of those acts.
|
|
vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
|
Post by vishnudas on Feb 5, 2013 12:30:20 GMT -5
The system gaurakeshava prabhu describes that Vaidhi bhaktas practice before japa, homa, puja is facinating, and lots of good info and realizations here regarding krpa siddhi and bhuta-suddhi, the mental body etc.. Sorry if I distracted the conversation away from the original topic, 'Attaining ragatmika bhakti'. Maybe it will work it's way back into ragatmika. I found this regarding bhuta-suddhi from Bhakti-sandarbha : "Though there are many kinds of bhuta-suddhi, its ultimate form is to think of oneself in a body suitable for serving the Lord in accordance with one's wishes. This is the practice that those who desire only service to the Lord should engage in. Thus, in whatever particular form or situation they think of their ista-devata, they should identify themselves as a corresponding associate of the Lord present in the same place." This article swamitripurari.com/2011/06/hari-bhakti-vilasa/ is an interesting viewpoint on Hari Bhakti Vilas. So as I understand, the Gaudiya Vaishnava form of bhuta suddhi differs from that of the other sampradayas in that it focuses on the mental form of one's desire to perform manasi seva specifically for the ishta devatas Radha and Krishna, through Their vrajavasi associates and no others. Other sampradayas meditate on service to Vishnu, Lakshmi or Shiva. It's all about choices, of which there are a good number. So "in accordance with one's wishes" says a lot about differences between the non-mechanical marg of raganuga and the regulated japa, homa, puja, kirtan of vaidhi bhakti and even the differences between sampradayas. Quoting from Uttamasloka's chapter "Vaidhi-bhakti and rägänugä-bhakti – different paths, different results" ""By executing vaidhi-bhakti one can attain a relationship with Vishnu in Vaikuntha, or Krsna in Mathurä or Dvärakä, but by vaidhi-bhakti alone one cannot gain entrance to Goloka Vrndävana. This is confirmed repeatedly in the teachings of Jiva Gosvämi, Visvanätha Cakravarti, Bhaktivinoda Thäkura and other äcäryas ...... Visvanätha Cakravarti explains this in Räga-vartma-candrikä: When one is greedy after mädhurya bhäva, but one holds onto the vidhi-märga, one attains the position of an associate of Satyabhämä in Dvärakä’s svakiya-rasa, knowing that Rädhä and Satyabhämä are one. This is a blend of aishvarya jnäna and mädhurya jnäna. And when one worships solely on the path of räga, one attains pure mädhurya and the position of an associate of Srimati Rädhärani in Vrndävana’s parakiya-bhäva. RVC, 2.6 --------- In Adi-lilä of Caitanya-caritämåta, Krsnadäsa Kaviräja Gosvämi reveals Krsna’s mind regarding His desire to appear as Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu: “Everywhere in the world people worship Me according to scriptural injunctions (vidhibhakti). But simply by following such regulative principles (vidhi-bhakti) one cannot attain the loving sentiments of the devotees in Vraja-bhümi. CC, 1.3.15 "" So we each have our individual and diverse spiritual attractions and practices, and we become "qualified" and "purified" through a variety of methods that are offered to us, but in order to reach the highest levels of raganuga sadhana, 'if we desire it', it's a journey of evolving with different bodies. The two bodys, sadhaka deha and siddha deha are companions on the path leading to the ragatmika bhaktas of Vraja. swamibvt talks about this in another section of this forum 'Achieving Goloka without Raganuga Sadhana', reply #12. raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/index.cgi?board=chap1a&action=display&thread=11&post=76Uttamasloka's states in his book "It should be more and more evident how this is a very personal process." So true.
|
|
|
Post by gaurakeshava on Feb 11, 2013 1:45:55 GMT -5
So as I understand, the Gaudiya Vaishnava form of bhuta suddhi differs from that of the other sampradayas in that it focuses on the mental form of one's desire to perform manasi seva specifically for the ishta devatas Radha and Krishna, through Their vrajavasi associates and no others. No, not true. Many within Gaudiya Vaisnavism may suggest that Gaudiya Vaisnavism ONLY deals with Raganuga bhakti. Though clearly this is the main thrust of Gaudiyas, it is not the ONLY type of sadhana that Gaudiyas perform. HBV deals with ONLY Vaidhi bhakti practices and that is why many Gaudiyas do not follow all it's prescriptions. Because their emphasis is on Raganuga sadhanas. However the Bhuta Suddhi in HBV IS CERTAINLY a Gaudiya Vaisnava Bhuta Suddhi. Remember that HBV was written on the order of Mahaprabhu Himself and therefore it can't be dismissed as simply meant for OTHER Sampradayas. NO, it is for all Gaudiyas (as well as having useful information for other Vaisnavas) and specifically for those Gaudiyas following Vaidhi bhakti sadhana. Naturally those Gaudiyas who are following or desiring to follow Raganuga sadhanas will neglect many Vaidhi practices given in HBV.
|
|
vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
|
Post by vishnudas on Jun 9, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5
Happy birthday dear Gaurakesava prabhu! Hope the muhurtas are good for you today! I agree totally with the above. I never excluded Vaidhi bhakti from the practices of the Gaudiyas. HBV is of course followed as much as possible in this difficult age by this sampradaya. My main focus was only on the fact that other sampradayas have different istha devatas they worship. When I say "and no others" I mean no other forms other than Radha and Krishna, (I should have included Krishna Balarama, Gaura Nitai/ PancaTattva) But I don't think I ever denied Vaidhi bhakti as a bonafide Gaudiya practice in any way. At least I didn't intentionally, whereas maybe someone I was quoting may be focusing more on the raganuga spirit. I did quote "but by vaidhi-bhakti alone one cannot gain entrance to Goloka Vrndävana" but that statement doesn't exclude Vaidhi practices, it includes it while simultaneously saying "but that's not all folks" . (my words) So when you said "No, not true" I wondered what that could refer to - a misunderstanding I guess. ys-vdas
|
|
|
Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 9, 2013 14:39:56 GMT -5
Gaudiya Vaisnavism includes both vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. However, vaidhi-bhakti cannot take one to Goloka Vrndavana - only raganuga-bhakti can do that, because it is following (anuga) the raga of the ragatmika associates of Vraja. That is stated repeatedly in CC.
|
|