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Post by ulisesguerrero on Jun 9, 2015 15:32:12 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Śrī Guru and Gaurāṅga!
I've gotten into a confusion. All other gurus and spiritual leaders that I've heard from say that the spiritual body, the siddha deha, develops as a "gift" and it is obtained only through menial service of guru, deity worship, etc. Nothing proactive. But, your book gives a totally new point of view: the spiritual body should be engineered. This is quite revolutionary and takes the devotee from a passive to an active state in terms of their own spiritual body.
We see in this world that children play with imaginary friends in order to experience certain feelings and emotions not currently available to them. It makes sense to me that one can also conceive a mental body in order to experience a desired mellow. It makes sense to me that we should first desire a particular body so that Kṛṣṇa would want to award it later on.
Am I understanding your approach correctly? Is it that we are meant to engineer our own desired spiritual body, and then experience rasa through it (all within the mind)?. Some devotees even go further saying we can have several spiritual bodies, and for example, one in Radha-Kṛṣṇa lila, and another one Gaura-lila. How are we to develop such strong mental powers?
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 9, 2015 20:51:26 GMT -5
When people say such things, the first thing you should do is ask, "Do you have any evidence from sastra or the acaryas to support this view, and which shows it is the consensus among the acaryas?" In most cases people don't have any tangible evidence. It's usually, "That's what I've heard from senior devotees." That's not good enough and it's not how Srila Prabhupada taught us. Everything must be substantiated by sastra and the acaryas to be accepted as valid. I have given a preponderance of evidence in my book from all of the acaryas and so far, no one has been able to prove that this is not the correct siddhanta and process.
And as far as being passive, there is nothing passive about lobha, spiritual greed to attain a relationship with Krsna like one of the Vraja-vasis. It is the primary qualification to practice raganuga-bhakti according to every single acarya. Greed implies an obsessive desire. There is nothing casual or passive about that. Here is an excerpt from Srila Prabhupada's lecture, 7.12.1976, on Caitanya-caritamrta, 2.20.106 Krsnadas kaviraja:
Laulyam, to advance in spiritual consciousness or Krsna consciousness, the value is only strong eagerness, laulyam, that "I must finish this business in this life, to understand Krsna." There are many sastric references. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. Simply we should be very seriously eager. Then very soon, acirad eva sidhyaty abhipsitah, immediately... If not immediately... We should patiently. Simply we should be very, very eager. Tatra laulyam ekam mulyam. Laulyam means very greediness or... We can say, "How I shall approach Krsna?" This greediness is required, not greediness for sense gratification. Then we shall be implicated more and more.
The greediness... Greediness is very good. Kamam krsna-karmarpane. Strong desire, that is called lust. So, but this strong desire... Just like gopis. The gopis, they were village girls. They had no understanding of what is God, what is Krsna. But they became very much lusty for Krsna, and Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended that ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhubir ya kalpita:
"There is no better type of worship than what was conceived by the gopis." Their strong desire, "How we shall get Krsna?" that was their day and night thought. That's all. Somebody is thinking in some way... The central point was Krsna. I have already explained that, that Krsna was going to the pasturing ground, and the gopis at home, they were thinking that "Krsna's foot is so soft and so delicate," and that "We dare not to take His feet on our breast, but He is now walking in the fields, pasturing ground, naked without any... And the stones pricking. How much He is feeling pain."
Thinking this, they became fainted. This is Krsna consciousness. So therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended ramya kacid upasana. These gopis, they were not supposed to be educated. Village girls -- who is giving them education? They are not Ph.D.'s. But still, strong desire for Krsna. And that is called yesam nirbandhini matih. Nirbandhini, strong desire. It doesn't require any other price to become advanced in..., simply to become very strongly eager, laulyam. Then life is successful."
That is the science of this phase of bhakti-yoga. Everyone is unknowingly creating their next material body by their desires and consciousness and at the time of death that becomes the basis for their next material body, along with their karmic bank account. Raganuga-bhakti is the process of knowingly and consciously creating our spiritual body (figuratively speaking) by re-directing our desires and thoughts into a specific relationship with Krsna and meditating upon it during our sadhana and bhajana. Desires keep us entangled or they liberate us depending on their focus, ie: either material or spiritual. Here are a few references.
From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
From Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita:
In his internal meditation, the sādhaka serves the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa in a particular rasa, with a form, dress, and so on that are suitable for his service. Achieving perfection at the end of his life, he enters Vaikuṇṭha. At that time, his heart is attracted to that previous rasa in which, while he was in the sādhaka stage, he worshiped the Lord, and he accepts an identical dress and form, knowing them to be dear to Śrī Bhagavān. BB, 2.4.145-146
From Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Whoever comes to Vaikuṇṭha realizes the very same service to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa for which he had developed a taste by the end of his material life, and he realizes that service in full detail, with its dress, form, and so on, for each mood of devotion is dear to the Personality of Godhead and each gives pleasure to the devotee absorbed in it.
Your understanding is correct. However, the experience of rasa cannot happen until after we attain bhava and then prema. To experience rasa one must develop their sthayi-bhava, ie: their core emotional state, which defines the essence of their emotional identity. That can only happen after the stage of bhava.
None of this is happening by our own mental powers. It happens by Krsna's mercy through the agency of His svarupa-sakti. I've been having some discussions on FaceBook about multiple svarupas and there is no evidence anywhere that sadhana-siddha jivas can have two different rasas in Vraja lila - only one. However, it is possible to have a svarupa in both Vraja lila and Gaura lila, but it depends on your focus during your sadhana and bhajana, ie: where your desires are strongest. If we do have simultaneous svarupas in both lilas, in Gaura lila we will be meditating internally on our svarupa in Vraja lila, because anything else would not make sense and it would be rasabhasa. Here is the reference from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva-dharma:
Vrajanātha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed bhaktas of Śrī Gaura-Kiśora (Caitanya Mahāprabhu)?
Bābājī: Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura-Kiśora are non-different in their tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of mādhurya-rasa. However, there is a slight difference between Them because mādhurya-rasa has two prakoṣṭs (chambers). One is the mood of mādhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audārya magnanimity). Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s svārupa is manifest where mādhurya is prominent, and Śrī Gaurāṅga’s form is manifest where audārya is prominent.
Similarly, the transcendental Vṛndāvana also has two prakoṣṭs (divisions): Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode and Śrī Gaura’s abode. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode are attracted first to mādhurya, and then to audārya.
The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Gaura’s abode are blissfully absorbed in audārya, and then mādhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other. Those who only worship Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana, only serve Śrī Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa during their period of sādhana serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa on achieving perfection.
However, those who worship the forms of both Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Śrī Gaura and Śrī Kṛṣṇa is a very confidential secret. Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 17, page 414-415
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Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 9, 2015 21:45:18 GMT -5
Wonderful! Spot on! Brilliant!
The information we've all been looking for, but almost too afraid to ask for fear of reprisals from the mind police.
Thank you for your wonderful service of enlightening one and all about the priceless gift given to us by the acaryas in our line.
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Post by ulisesguerrero on Jun 9, 2015 22:11:32 GMT -5
Dandavat pranams! Thank you! Excellent quotes! Very happy to hear the recording from that lecture of Śrīla Prabhupāda!
Further in Brhad Bhagavatamrta:
--- 152. “And upon entering Vaikunta, those devotees who have no exclusive love or attachment
for any one specific form of Sri Bhagavan may worship whichever form they desire.” ---
What does the commentary say? Could it be possible that those devotees who practice without a particular goal do reach the spiritual world and then develop their relationship from there? Although not recommended, could this allow the possiblity for those who are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa without detailed knowledge of raganuga bhakti to enter the realm of Vraja?
Also, in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:
---If even only once or even by force one brings the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead into one's mind, one can attain the supreme salvation by the mercy of Krsna, as did Aghasura. [Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 10.12.39]---
What would be the meaning of bringing the form by force?
Hari bol! Hari bol!
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 10, 2015 0:49:04 GMT -5
You're very welcome. And thanks to Vrindavana Dasa for his kind words too.  Keep in mind that Sanatana Gosvami is talking about Vaikuntha and not Goloka. We read throughout sastra about people becoming liberated in various ways, like chanting the name of Visnu at the time of death, etc, and going to Vaikuntha. Such people may not have been focused on a particular form of Krsna or Visnu during their lives, and so this statement most likely applies to them. To enter Vraja one must be focused on Krsna as a cowherd boy and in the context of a specific relationship. Other than krpa-siddhi, where one is blessed by Krsna or His devotee, I have not read that there are alternate means to enter Goloka, which is the highest and most difficult realm to attain. Here is a very revealing conversation with Srila Prabhupada on a morning walk in Nairobi, 11.2.75: Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa? Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance. Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit. Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim [SB 1.5.17]. This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. [break] Harikeśa: They let him (Ajamila) stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect. Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire—"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas? Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect... Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he has fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative." Here is another reference from Teachings of Lord Caitanya, page 318: The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore to think oneself a direct associate of the Supreme Lord is condemned (ahangrahopasana). According to authorized Vaiṣṇava principles, one should follow a particular devotee and not think of himself as Kṛṣṇa’s associate. In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world. One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa. By adopting this emotional mood of following in the footsteps of the gopīs, one attains his siddha-deha. This word indicates the pure spiritual body, which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. The siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his perfectly pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred to another material body. Similarly, one who at the time of death is situated in his pure spiritual identity thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord and is transferred to the spiritual kingdom, to enter into the association of Kṛṣṇa. In other words, the qualification for being transferred to the spiritual kingdom at the time of death is to think, in one’s spiritual identity, of Kṛṣṇa and His associates. No one can contemplate the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha-deha). Thus Rāmānanda Rāya said that without attaining one’s siddha-deha one can neither become an associate of the damsels of Vraja nor render service directly to the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, and His eternal consort, Rādhārāṇī. In this regard, Rāmānanda quoted a nice verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.47.60): “Neither the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, nor the damsels of the heavenly kingdom can attain the facilities of the damsels of Vrajabhūmi – and what to speak of others?” Some examples that come to mind are looking at a picture to help one focus on Krsna's form, or having one's associates perform a kirtan for the same reason while one is on their death bed. In other words, the person may not have the focused consciousness to remain fixed internally, so some external means are employed as an aid. |
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Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 10, 2015 3:20:13 GMT -5
"Anyone can be purified if he takes shelter of a pure devotee and molds his character according to the pure devotee's direction."
(Srimad Bhagavatam 6.12.20)
We have to mold our character according to the pure devotee's direction. This is what we have to do. This is the purification process as given by Srila Prabhupada.
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Vrsabhanu das (Mayapur)
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Post by Vrsabhanu das (Mayapur) on Jun 10, 2015 3:31:23 GMT -5
Prabhu : you mentioned krpa siddha being the other option. Have the acaryas said much on this? Recently, Brahmananda P passed away. I heard HH Sivarama Swami say that he left his body in the holy dham & therefore would have gone back to Godhead. Furthermore, he performed such extraordinary service to Srila Prabhupada & was extremely dedicated to Prabhupada. I've heard another senior devotee (& Godbrother) mention in SB class a few days ago that Brahmananda P was not much of a sadhaka. So - it appears that he may not have been consciously practicing Raganuga bhajan. My question is what position/form does he take up in Goloka & how is this determined?
ys,vd
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 10, 2015 16:12:55 GMT -5
Not much. In BRS there is a short discussion with some examples. Here are the main references (no examples):
Now, bhava arising from the mercy of Krsna or His devotee is described. That bhava which appears suddenly without performance of sadhana is known as bhava produced from the mercy of Krsna or His devotee. BRS, 1.3.15
Bhava arising from Krsna’s mercy is now considered: This mercy arises from the words of the Lord, the presence of the Lord, or just appears in the heart. BRS, 1.3.16
Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:
The mercy may be produced by the words spoken by the Lord. Alternatively, the Lord may bestow mercy, producing bhava, by showing Himself to the devotee. On the other hand, the mercy may simply manifest in the devotee's heart. The verse starting smeram bhangi in the second part (BRS1.2.239) illustrates mercy by seeing the Lord. Mercy given by Vrndavana and other items are included in the "mercy given by devotees”.
Bhava sometimes appears suddenly in a person without the performance of sadhana or mercy, and without scriptural knowledge. It should be inferred that, in a previous life, some obstacle interrupted that person’s skillful sadhana, and in this life the obstacle has finally been removed. BRS, 1.3.57
Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:
Sadhana refers to all the causes of bhava: sadhana-bhakti, the mercy of Krsna and the mercy of the devotee. Issa refers to the knowledge gained through scriptures. Sometimes bhava appears suddenly without knowledge of scriptures, and without sadhana, the mercy of Krsna or the mercy of His devotee. It is seen and verified to be real bhava. One should then infer sadhana from a previous life, as in the case of Vrtrasura and others.
I'm not aware of any detailed discussions by the acaryas about this situation, ie: dying in the dhama, so I don't know and I would rather not speculate. In Brahmananda prabhu's case, there may be special mercy from Srila Prabhupada, given his long personal relationship and service, but who can say with absolute certainty?
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 12, 2015 7:11:18 GMT -5
Dear Uttamasloka prabhu,
On the topic of siddha deha creation and meditation, could you please comment on the following, and in particular the highlighted selections? Is there any sastric support for the guru 'knowing our sidha deha' and then 'giving it to us?'
"'Siddha-deha’ means the body that our Spiritual Master gives us and we meditate on it. Srimat Jiva Goswamipad says – ‘siddha deha’ is the body that is worthy of serving Sri Krishna. Srila Vishwanath Chakravartipad has said – ‘siddha-deha’ is the body that is worthy of serving Sri Sri Radha-Krishna in reality (saksht sea). By using the word ‘sakshat’ he is indicating that when a sadhak meditates on the siddha-deha, then Sri Krishna accepts the seva in reality. In Raganuga when a sadhak has not reached the stage of rati (passion), then he deliberately meditates that he is serving the Divine Couple with siddha-deha; however when a sadhak attains the level of rati, he identifies naturally with his siddha-deha."
"The siddha-deha that the sadhak meditates on is not imaginary. It is the supreme truth, eternal, blissful and conscious. Some people think that although the soul is originally spiritual, it is infinitesimally small; hence the sadhak has to meditate upon an imaginary body. He pleases Sri Bhagavan by his sadhana and then following the rule – “yadrishi bhavana yasya siddhirbhavati tadrishi” – He converts the sadhak’s soul into His associate. So the message is that although later on the siddha-deha does exist (as Sri Bhagavan’s associate), just now it is imaginary. This means, we are meditating on a make-believe image. This is not a Vaishnav-conclusion."
"Sri Gurudev is Sri Bhagavan’s intense compassion personified. He knows our siddha-deha by the power of his meditation. Then he reveals to us our siddha- deha. We should meditate on this divine body and think “I am this body”. Such meditation is called “meditating on siddha-deha”."
Thanks.
Your servant,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 12, 2015 7:42:58 GMT -5
Dear Vrndavana das prabhu,
Thanks for the references, but I am having a little trouble deciphering exactly who said what in your quotes. If you precede the reference with the devotee's name then it will be easier to understand. I was specifically looking for Uttamasloka's words on this but I couldn't tell where he was speaking from what you uploaded.
Ys,
Vraja Vilasa dasa
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Vrindavan das
Junior Member
"This crying is the last word in the progressive path of devotional service." - SB 3.4.35 purport
Posts: 57
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Post by Vrindavan das on Jun 12, 2015 7:50:42 GMT -5
Dear Vrndavana das prabhu, Thanks for the references, but I am having a little trouble deciphering exactly who said what in your quotes. If you precede the reference with the devotee's name then it will be easier to understand. I was specifically looking for Uttamasloka's words on this but I couldn't tell where he was speaking from what you uploaded. Ys, Vraja Vilasa dasa Dear Vraja Vilasa prabhu, Okay,i'll do better and watch out for the specific references on every post so there will be no confusion on who said what and from where this posting is from. I am simply wanting to help in further understanding, ys Vrindavan das |
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 12, 2015 9:03:17 GMT -5
Dear Vrndavana das prabhu, You have referenced different devotees in your responses, hence my confusion. I had already previously read all that you sent via the links you posted. I am specifically looking at an answer to this question, from one of our acaryas, or sastra. I don't necessarily accept the conclusions of those articles resourced from the internet. Hence I posed my question to Uttamsloka prabhu to answer. However, I will reference a few quotes from your posts which is concerned with my question: “In the sadhaka-body, which is the present body, as well as in the siddha-rupa, which is the mentally conceived spiritual body which is suitable for direct service to Them, or the Guru-given manjari-svarupa..." "In due course of time, a guru in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya reveals the details of his own siddha-form, of the siddha-forms of the preceding gurus, and of the siddha-form of the sadhaka to the qualified practitioner . This is popularly called the giving of siddha-pranali, as the initiate becomes the last link in a channel of manjaris preserved over the generations from a guru to a disciple." "The descriptions of oneself, one’s gurus and the other manjaris are all learned from the guru.""As one learns of the characteristics of the manjaris from one’s guru, so one learns of one’s own manjari-svarupa from one’s guru. Indeed, the manjari-svarupa is born of the guru’s grace!""The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for him and is blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus." The following exchange could also appear to support this: HD: But what about siddha-pranali? How to qualify? Who will give? ACBSP: Guru will give. You just chant Hare Krsna. HD: (I mentioned the story of Chota Krishnadas, who tried to quit his body by jumping into Manasa-ganga, when he heard that only his Guru, who had already departed, could give him siddha-pranali) …How to receive this eternal information, Gurudev? ACBSP: Guru will give. There is no material consideration about Guru is here or there. When you reach that level, Guru will give. Until US responds, just hold off on any more quotes I am looking for a conclusive reference from one of our acaryas, or sastra on this one. I understand that different contemporary Vaisnavas have different opinions on this. Ys, Vraja Vilasa dasa |
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Post by Vraja Vilasa dasa on Jun 12, 2015 9:43:04 GMT -5
To US: I know you have dealt with siddha pranali in your book and here on the forum. I just wanted to know whether the statements by different devotees that the siddha deha is 'already known by the guru' and he then 'gives it or reveals it' to the disciple, is correct, or even an option/ possibility for the sadhaka. This reference you mentioned seems to indicate that this is not the case: "Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarūpa-siddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation, and the spiritual master’s only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service." SBSST Read more: raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/thread/71/book-excerpt-siddha-clearing-misconception#ixzz3crItPhYZYs, VVD |
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 12, 2015 13:29:19 GMT -5
Let's be mindful to post only specifically relevant references to the topic at hand and not just drown everyone in long posts that are tedious to read and often go off topic. It does not further the discussion in a beneficial way. And we should all first speak from our own adhikara primarily and support our analysis by appropriate references. I have deleted those posts.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jun 12, 2015 13:53:11 GMT -5
Vraja Vilasa prabhu...
None of the acaryas say this in their books. The guru teaches us about the process and all relevant details, and then guides us in terms of our own unique evolutionary development. None of the acaryas say the guru 'gives' you your siddha-deha. Also, keep in mind that the siddha-deha is not just a spiritual 'body' - it is our complete 'identity', which includes the body, but is much more than just that. A bodily form has no meaning if there is no living personality giving it life and purpose. That comes from us, the jivas and our unique personal natures.
None of these references support the guru 'giving' one's siddha-deha. It is our identity - not something someone else gives. Since we have never had a prior relationship with Krsna, it does not exist yet until we desire it to be so. So it all comes from our desires and our hearts. Ye yatha mam prapadyante...
The siddha-deha is not 'imaginary'. It is mentally conceived as described by Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti in BRS. That may sound like 'imaginary' but it isn't. It is meant to give specific focus to our desires to have a particular relationship with Krsna, which cannot happen in the context of our illusory material identities. Thus, we have to develop a suitable 'identity' with which to express the type of relationship we desire, along with suitable services or interactions. So we don't meditate 'on' our siddha-deha, we meditate 'in' our siddha-deha and accept it as our new eternal identity. At the stage of bhava, Krsna fulfills all of those desires we cultivated during our sadhana and bhajana in the context of our desired identity and relationship.
This is not supported in any of the acaryas' books that I have studied.
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