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Post by Dhanesvara Das on Jan 27, 2013 2:15:00 GMT -5
Thank you Uttamasloka Prabhu, for this wonderful book and collecting the information of our acharyas as a summary study. You have performed a great service to the Vaishnavas. In your book you have stated that the only way to Goloka Vrindavana is through the practice of raganuga sadhana, and that this process must be accomplished before we leave this body. But I want to present some anecdotal evidence that suggests that this may not always be required.
Some of the readers may have heard these stories and if you are familiar with the more of the details please provide them.
There are three cases of devotees leaving this world to enter directly into Krishna lila that come to mind.
The first one is Mataji Padyavali’s (Vancouver) sister, whose name I believe was Radharani, although I may be mistaken. She was a life-long Tulasi pujari. In her last days she was in the hospital and as effort to offer some solace to her the devotees arranged for a picture of Tulasi to be always present on the television monitor in the room. At one point Radharani stirred from either semi-conscious, or unconsciousness and inquired of those nearby: “where is Tulasi?” at which they pointed to the TV monitor and said “here she is…”
Radharani retorted “that is not Tulasi, that is just a picture.” She then scanned the room looking for Tulasi and her gaze went out the window, at which point she said: “oh, there she is!” and immediately departed her body.
It was obvious to those present that Tulasi Maharani, Vrindadevi herself, had come for Radharani. And where would she take her besides Goloka Vrindavana perhaps as her dasi?
The next case is recorded in (the former) Balabhadra Prabhu’s wonderful little book “Simple for the Simple.” Forgive me for the details as I do not have the book with me. The book is an account of his wife's passing. In her devotional service she would pack lunches for the devotees going on sankirtan, and prepare prasadam and serve them when they returned. That was her service for many years.
She developed a brain embolism or some such thing, and her health deteriorated over a period of a number of months.
In the later stages of her illness she would come in and out of consciousness and Balabhadra noted that sometimes she spoke in a voice that was quite different from her normal tone and manner.
He ventured to inquire from her some particulars about her situation: what was her name? How old was she? What was her service? And so on.
The replies were startling: she was “almost 8” years old and her service was to help prepare Kana’s lunch. Her voice and manner were like that of an 8 year old girl.
Reading this book one is convinced that she continued in the service she had done for many years—preparing lunch—only now it was for Kana Himself in Goloka Vrindavana!
The details of this last story are quite vague although I think I have the jist of the story is more or less correct. The story is that of one mataji, name unknown to me, who, as I recall, was an elderly and very dedicated servant of the devotees at—I want to say Radhadesh, although I am very possibly mistaken here. But it was someplace in Europe. She came to Krishna Consciousness late in life and was older than most of the devotees. Naturally then she was like a mother to them and was always looking after them in motherly ways.
In her last days she had one dedicated caretaker who stayed by her side almost all of the time. At one point her caretaker asked her when she was going back to Godhead, and would she take her along? Our ill-stricken mataji replied that she couldn’t leave yet and would have to wait until the next day.
Just some minutes after midnight there was only one small light on in the room close to the bed. Across the room it was dark, but mataji sat up exclaiming about the bright light on the other side of the room, a light that the caretaker could not perceive. When asked about the light mataji exclaimed that it was because Nanda and Yasoda were present there and had come for her, at which point she left the body.
Now it is complete speculation on my part, but because within ISKCON raganuga has received very little attention, I suppose that these devotees did not engage in raganuga bhajan. Others who were closer to the situation and these devotees may correct that assumption. However, if I am correct in that assumption, we have three cases of devotees, who, by dedicated devotional service in ISKCON achieved Goloka without raganuga bhajan, and interestingly, service in Goloka Vrindavana that was similar to what they performed in Srila Prabhupada’s society.
Now, I am not advocating that we ignore raganuga sadhana bhakti as it will likely be the path for many. But in these cases at least, by Krishna-kripa or guru-kripa, these devotees appear to have achieved their vastu-siddhi without going through that process. So it appears that there are (perhaps many) exceptions to the general rule.
Corrections/Comments welcomed.
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Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 27, 2013 6:50:23 GMT -5
What you are describing seems to me to be krpa siddha. We have no way of knowing (I am speaking for myself here, some other pure Vaishnava may know) if these persons attained Goloka or what they attained. We wish them the best and certainly their antima smriti or dying spiritual thoughts are rare and to be admired. We should all be so fortunate to remember the Lord in such situations.
So if we assume they attained perfection and Goloka, then it would seem they have not done it through the usual methods suggested by the previous acharyas and sastras. That in my book is krpa siddha. We cannot hope or make it into a system for others to follow.
Just as there are rare examples of certain miracles occurring. But we cannot assume that given similar circumstances such miracles will always occur. mahajano yena gatah sah pantah. We have to follow only the path laid out by the purva acharyas and sastras.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 11:54:23 GMT -5
Prabhus...
Since writing my book and corresponding with many devotees, I am very surprised at how many devotees are hoping for this special mercy, based on having performed some measure of sincere service during their lives.
It seems that most devotees think that SP will simply "take them to Krsna" because of that service, partially because they can't imagine they would ever become truly qualified otherwise, and also because they think that this is the actual process. A "get out of jail free card" so to speak.
What you have described in these anecdotes appears to me to be an example that these devotees actually developed an inner identity of themselves as serving in that mode in Vraja, without having been aware of the details of this process. In other words, while they were performing their services, inside they were meditating on doing these kinds of things in Vraja with Krsna and the Vraja-vasis, which is precisely the process.
Krsna says to Uddhava in the 11th canto:
Even ignorant persons can very easily come to know the Supreme Lord if they adopt those means spoken by the Supreme Lord Himself, the process known as bhagavata-dharma or devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
O King, in the performance of devotional service he will never be hindered on this path. Even if he intentionally closes his eyes and runs, still he will never stumble or fall. (SB 11.2.34-35)
So in spite of being unaware of the acaryas' detailed teachings, it appears that they intuitively "got it even though running blindly" so to speak, and inwardly cultivated their desired identities to an extent unknown to us, but apparently enough to result in what we hear from their stories.
That's how I'm perceiving it.
That being said, for most devotees to hope for similar results is not recommended by any acaryas, but at the same time, everyone will follow their hearts when it comes to spontaneous raganuga, whether they understand it or not.
We have to ask ourselves: Why did Lord Caitanya spend so much time instructing His primary acaryas in these details, and why did they go to great lengths to write about it in explicit detail? The answers should be obvious to everyone. To blatantly ignore these facts seems to me to be questionable. And the idea that "I'm not worthy" is not appropriate either, for when you read the acaryas' teachings as presented in my book, anyone can see that we are all within reach of this exalted goal, by their mercy in the form of instructions.
Devotees are always warning about taking things cheaply with regard to raganuga, yet so many want to just "get out of jail free" for a partial lifetime's worth of "service." I'm not saying that such people are insincere, but on what basis do they think that there is no value in following the detailed instructions given by our acaryas? There is zero focus by any of the acaryas on krpa-siddhi - only a passing mention within volumes of instructions about the path prescribed for 99.99% of us.
The mood in Vraja is one of unprecedented intense desires and love, and to qualify for entry, one must rise to that same status in one's life through the processes recommended by ALL of our acaryas. Following the path of raganuga as presented by these acaryas is precisely Lord Caitanya's gift to all of us and we should take it with open arms and hearts and dive deep into this ocean of nectar.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 11:56:23 GMT -5
Gaurakesava: I accidentally clicked on modify on your post instead of mine. I didn't change anything on your post. Sorry for the finger fumble.
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Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 27, 2013 12:49:43 GMT -5
Gaurakesava: I accidentally clicked on modify on your post instead of mine. I didn't change anything on your post. Sorry for the finger fumble. No problem. I can't even see that you did that. I wasn't aware you could modify other persons postings. Probably only administrators can.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 13:25:17 GMT -5
Yes, only admins can do that.
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 13:26:08 GMT -5
One more point re Dhanesvara's post. The anecdotes also clearly show that these devotees were following a Vraja associate, which is another indication of their intuitive following of the raga-marga.
But that should not make devotees feel that they can just whimsically try to do it on their own, while disregarding the acaryas' teachings, because, "other devotees did it." Those devotees were obviously not aware of these teachings for whatever reasons.
My book is an attempt to bring these essential teachings to light, so those who are exposed to them cannot claim ignorance anymore and say, well I'd rather take my chances and wing it. That would be taking things cheaply and not following the acaryas' lead. Sruti-smriti...
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Post by Admin on Jan 27, 2013 14:43:34 GMT -5
Uttamasloka wrote: The anecdotes also clearly show that these devotees where following a Vraja associate
Sorry, I don't think that you can say that with any certainty. We can say that they were performing their service in a particular mood, and it seems that that mood became their eternal service. Perhaps it was the case that these devotees in previous lives were led to such seva and in this life they were able to perform it turly as an act of Krisha seva.
The fact is that we don't know what they did or did not do, and I am hoping that some who were close to them or know the story better may fill in the details.
Again, my point is not that we should avoid raganuga saddhana and simply hope for siddha kripa--that's like hoping to get the honorary degree that may never come. However, I think these anecdotes do demonstrate that there is more going on than the "rules" imply. It seems reasonable that we need to give a bit of space for such possibilities.
Dhanesvara Das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Jan 27, 2013 15:24:31 GMT -5
I agree with all of your points.
I suggested that they were following because they both "saw" personalities at the last moment who represented their focus during life.
There is a bit of wiggle room for such possibilities in my book, but it's so rare, it's not really worth considering as an option per se. Just something to be aware of for the whole picture.
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vishnudas
New Member
BRS 1.4.14 if one takes shelter of Rägänugä Sädhana one usually attains unalloyed Prema.
Posts: 33
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Post by vishnudas on Jan 28, 2013 14:15:27 GMT -5
The first devotee Dhanesvara Das mentioned from Vancouver was Rudrani devi dasi. I knew her well. She lived in a physical condition that most of us cannot even imagine. She had a crippling disease that kept her most of the time in a wheel chair. She and her husband Sananda, a devotee and ayurvedic doctor from India, took care of the tulasi plants in the Burnaby temple greenhouses and were very devoted to this service. The story can be found here; www.vancouver.iskcon.ca/Rudrani/Condolence%27s.htmYou can read there how the devotees loved and respected her. And you will read that she passed away chanting the mahamantra. You can draw your conclusions from that if you want. here's some of it.... She then said she was having a pain in the back of her neck area and she asked Shanta to hold her hands real tight and to also press the back of her neck. Rudrani then asked Shanta "are you ready to take off?" Shanta said "yes I am ready". Rudrani then asked "Shanta has Tulasi Maharani arrived?" Shanta said "yes, She is right there ", and pointed to the picture of Tulasi Maharani in her Gopi form taped to the TV screen above her bed. The picture was the front cover of a card (10x17) made by Manoharini dasi with devotees well wishes inside. Rudrani said"That is the painting, I mean has the real Tulasi Maharani arrived here?" Shanta said"Yes,She has arrived She is right here with you" Rudrani then said "OK then let's chant" While firmly and loudly chanting Shanta started crying because Shanta felt Rudrani was going to leave soon. So immediately Rudrani stopped chanting and told Shanta "do not cry, just chant with me" And they continued to chant together After chanting several times the Hare Krsna Maha Mantra Rudrani’s voice became feeble, breathing became labored, Rudrani’s mouth was firmly forming the Maha Mantra silently. While silently chanting peacefully Rudrani stopped breathing and left her body." IMO , just by knowing her devotional nature and spontaneous love for Tulasi devi, Rudrani dd had all the good qualities of one quite above just dasya rasa. This is one devotee I know wasn't entangled in mundane distractions. She followed exactly the marg of raganuga. Whether she learned it through books or via the intensity of her personal devotion, or both, really doesn't matter.
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Post by gaurakeshava on Jan 28, 2013 22:06:10 GMT -5
All glories to those persons who can achieve Antima Smrti (death bed remembrance) of the Lord. However I think what is being highlighted here are two things.
1. Such Antima Smrti even chanting the Hare Krsna mahamantra at the time of death does not according to sastra and previous acharyas necessarily lead to an eternal personal service in Goloka Vrndavan which is the stated goal of Raganuga Sadhana. It may, in rare cases of Kripa Siddha, or when the person has performed Raganuga Sadhana in their previous life.
2. We should not therefore concoct a system where we rely on such Antima Smrti as the path to eternal personal service in Goloka Vrndavan. Because that is not the way presented by the previous acharyas and sastras. This does not mean that we should not arrange for circumstances where such Antima Smrti is easier to achieve. Only that we must not see it as a replacement system for the actual system recommended in sastra and by the previous acharyas.
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Post by Admin on Jan 30, 2013 14:18:04 GMT -5
Thank you Visnudas for the details of Mother Rudrani's passing. I had heard the story from M. Padyavali about three years ago and obviously many details were not conveyed or remembered. The story as you have explained it leaves less room for conjecture, although I am sure, as you and others have said, that Rudrani was a very special devotee.
Gaura Keshava Prabhu I am in complete agreement with what you have stated. Our acharyas have given us the detailed process by which to transfer ourselves to Krishna's lila and that is the path we should follow - why not? It is not a path that is beyond any of us - it is our (second) birthright. Why should we leave up to chance what we can take control of? Sri Krishna leaves it up to us as to which kind of relationship we want with Him, and it is ours to determine what that will be. The is the conclusion of bhakti yoga and Krishna consciousness - how will we be conscious of Krishna?
Dhanesvara Das
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Post by swamibvt on Feb 1, 2013 14:39:46 GMT -5
Dhanesvara,
I am a little uncomfortable with the language of "taking control," and "(second) birth right." Bhakti is not our right but a gift. Granted it is given with diksa in terms of the opportunity to pursue it—the effort to attain more grace, if you will. Sadhana is an effort to attain grace in the form of the blessing of bhava.
Raganuga sadhana is a big subject and it is explained in different ways by different lineages. The Bhaktivinoda parivara tends to take a conservative approach, as do a number of other Gaudiya parivaras. What follows is a description of such a conservative approach.
As far as our choice for rasa, this is repeatedly explained by the Goswamis to be a result of association. With whom one associates one becomes like—samskara. This is the general rule. What appears to be an exception must then be attributed to previous association in another life or the fact that, for example, other bhavas such as sakhya are contained within madhurya. Thus one such bhava may become the bhava of a disciple of the madhurya rasa guru that the disciple is serving.
Then again, the guru is representing Rasaraja, and thus in a general sense all rasas. Looking at it this way, even a guru in sakhya rasa can give madhurya rasa—just as the president comes from a particular state with state affinities but as the president he or she represent all of the states. As saksad hari tvena the guru represents all possibilities, whereas—kintu prabhur ya priya eva tasya—he or she also has a particular sentiment that most disciples will follow— krsnanandaya dhimahi.
The choosing of a sentiment described by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is tied to ruci. Ruci constitutes the absence of material desire—na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va—and the dawning of three spiritual desires: praptya-abhilasa, anukulya-abhilasa, and sauhrdha-abhilasa—the desire to attain Krsna, the desire to serve him favorably, and the desire to establish a particular affectionate relationship with him. These desires begin to manifest in the stage of ruci, and thus in the context of serious and deep sadhana, wherein the medicine of chanting has become one's food.
The feeling that the desire to establish a specific affectionate relationship with Krsna is one's own choice is a particular perspective. Actually it descends or arises in the purified heart through sadhana, as nama smaranam develops into rupa and then guna smaranam, or natural, self-arising meditation on a particular from of Krsna and particular qualities of his (out of the 64) relative to the affectionate relationship desired.
Sri Jiva Goswami explains in his Durgama-sangamani that the ruci aspect of bhava (rucibis citta masrnya krd) is constituted of these desires. So before attaining bhava, as ruci itself is attained these desires begin to manifest. But unlike the stages of asakti and bhava wherein they flow spontaneously, in ruci they are cultivated with one's intelligence. Sri Jiva says about the stage of ruci that, "Ruci means desire for the Bhagavan, that is directed by the intellect—rucir abhilasah kintu buddhi-purvakam.
But in nistha one can also fix one's ideal on the basis of deep study of sastra that this stage typically involves—nityam bhagavata sevaya. Or on the basis of serving the person Bhagavata and desiring to follow him or her internally. And this will likely give rise to a corresponding desire in ruci. Or even before that in earlier stages the guru may tell us that we are to follow a particular bhava as our ideal. However, in the stage of anistha bhajana kriya and before anartha nivritti eligibility for lila smaranam from the perspective of one's desired affectionate relationship is surely lacking. How can one meditate effectively when one is distracted by other desires, other values (principal anarthas)? Meditation unlike kirtana requires eligibility. Thus Sri Jiva recommends nama smaranam first, which when done attentively cleanses the heart and develops naturally into rupa, guna, and in asakti, lila smaranam. Rupa, guna, and lil are all within the name. And it is Thakura Bhaktivinoda who cautions against premature attempts at such lila smaranam in his Bhajana-rahasya: "The intelligence of one who thinks of his siddha-deha without first achieving eligibility becomes bewildered." He calls this sahajiya-bhava.
Following the above, one who has not attained ruci but is attracted to the idea of following the bhavas of the Vrajavasis is an "ajata-ruci raganuga sadhaka." This is the language Jiva Goswami uses to describe such a sadhaka who has become attracted to the raga marg as a result of associating with a sadhu on that marg but who at the same time is not fully eligible to tread it. Treading it requires doing so in two bodies, a sadhaka deha and a siddha deha. Thus one can follow this marg with a sadhaka deha, as Jiva Goswami explains, before one begins serving in one's siddha deha in meditation. One does so by adhering to the hearing and chanting of vaidhi bhakti with the aspiration to eventually attain such a siddha deha and full eligibility to tread the raga marg. This is then a mixture of raga and vaidhi sadhana with the aim of attaining further eligibility for pure raganuga sadhana that is driven by ruci. The idea is that the siddha deha arises out of the fully engaged/absorbed sadhaka deha. Today many want a siddha deha without taking the trouble to fully engage their sadhaka deha.
Where does lobha fit in? In the lowest sense of the term it constitutes the desire to follow the bhavas of Vraja, as opposed to the majestic love of Vaikuntha. This sets one on the path in as much as the path differs from pure vaidhi bhakti only in terms of orientation and subsequent ideal. But lobha in and of itself does not turn one into a jata-ruci raganuga sadhaka. First comes ajata-ruci raganuga sadhana. And continuing along conservative lines, Mukunda Goswami has commented in his Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu tika that lobha for raganuga sadhana is more rare than bhava of vaidhi bhakti, which Sri Rupa describes as sudurlabha, very rare.
At any rate, while raga bhakti is open to all, qualification to tread the path in all respects is something that is gradually developed, as Jiva Goswami has explained. Indeed many who aspire for Vraja prema cannot even participate in such discussions due their present lack of eligibility.
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Post by satyahitd on Feb 6, 2013 2:58:34 GMT -5
"Simple For The Simple " Jai Srila Prabhupada does anyone know where to obtain this book ? satyahit das
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Post by Uttamasloka on Feb 6, 2013 14:15:16 GMT -5
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